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2019/10/29 16:06:09
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Vineheart01 wrote: i think most ork players prefer the gork over the mork, but im the other way around. Could be because i play mono-badmoonz but i just like the heavy hitting guns it has, since i usually have plenty of anti-chaff.
Naut shooting does not degrade, its movement and melee does. Ive had my mork survive a round with 1-2 wounds and unleash a wrath of Kustom shots at who tried to kill him way too many times to count.
Plus, i like having ~3 KFFs around, so its another KFF.
I do prefer the mork overall. Load it with KFF for other units. I use my DS reroll on the ones from it's main gun for the most part. I'll also occasionally double fire it and cause DDD to trigger on 5+. It can melt many a vehicle an or monsterous creature. If there is a huge horde then I'll use the gork double fire and 5+ DDD to try and wipe them. 36 main gun shots, 2d6 flamer shots, 24 Big Shoota shots and 4 rokkits. all causing extra hits on 5+. I almost fully wiped a 40 man daemon unit in 1 go with this
the same goes for the mork and shooting large targets 6d3 S9 ap-4 d6 damage shots, 24 BS shots, 2 KMB shots, 4 rokkits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
addnid wrote: @Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you. Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army. Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so. I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
This may go into the RAI and RAW argument but is there actually anything in the current rulebook that talks about modeling for advantage? I don't believe there is any longer and it's just a remnant from prior editions. Although a dick move to try anything sketchy to pull out a win.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/29 16:12:21
2019/10/29 16:58:06
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
The general idea is to fill the trukk with grots to tag stuff and t1 charge, meanwhile you advance with FG and DS with TB. and try to avoid to get any secondary maxed. Gang buster, big game hunter, butchers bill, reaper and headhunter should give out max 3 points as you can put avoid to have the KFF and weirboy in the open and the deffkilla is just gonna go back n forth in order to push the trukks and the meganobz. Beside the grot shield and the nuke grots the rest is way back field vs DS and GSC shenanigans. Terrain is important but I feel, after the last GT that I need to minimize the number of body in the open in the current meta.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/29 17:01:22
2019/10/29 20:25:00
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
addnid wrote: @Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you. Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army. Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so. I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
Nope. Difference is half a rank at most. Generally less if opponent has any brain cells during position.
And gw has not forced rebasing. Official rule is no need to rebase. Requirement to rebase is no more official as house rule saying ork boys are 20pts per model. If you claim official rule is they must be 32mm then you are flat out cheating. That's just house rule not even suggested by gw
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/29 20:26:01
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/10/29 20:28:12
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Emicrania wrote: I was thinking about mixing up some of the strong list and I came up with a possible build. Feel free to comment in a constructive way.
The general idea is to fill the trukk with grots to tag stuff and t1 charge, meanwhile you advance with FG and DS with TB. and try to avoid to get any secondary maxed. Gang buster, big game hunter, butchers bill, reaper and headhunter should give out max 3 points as you can put avoid to have the KFF and weirboy in the open and the deffkilla is just gonna go back n forth in order to push the trukks and the meganobz. Beside the grot shield and the nuke grots the rest is way back field vs DS and GSC shenanigans. Terrain is important but I feel, after the last GT that I need to minimize the number of body in the open in the current meta.
Overall I like the list, though. Every time I see the purely static mek gun lists along w/ just a 120 boys, kind of feels really boring (I imagine that's fun to run once in a while, but not the most fun to pilot in week in and out). Most of this army is actually pretty maneuverable.
As a flexible option, maybe drop 1 Flash Git so you can fit them + Baddruk and ammo runt into a trukk (or drop baddruks ammo runt). Running your flash gits in the open might be fine in some games and not others, so you'll have that option open to you without too much loss of power.
I'm not sure how your Deffkilla is helping your MANz at all. It seems to be the weird part of this list, if it's just to help your trukks assault, I'm not sure that's worth it for that alone. He's apparently not good in assault like the Biker Boss from what I understand, so its not like he's going to do much as a counter charger either.
You could shift some stuff around so you could drop him, shift a weirdboy down there (since it doesn't really matter what clan they are), move a SAG to badmoons (it can fire twice then if you *really* need it too, then, which is not a bad pocket option). Should free up ~150ish points for something interesting. Or maybe take a walking Warboss as potential MANz support (or throw him in one of those trukks and get him up there after the MANzDS or Da Jump).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/29 20:36:38
2019/10/30 08:37:21
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
addnid wrote: @Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you. Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army. Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so. I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
Nope. Difference is half a rank at most. Generally less if opponent has any brain cells during position.
And gw has not forced rebasing. Official rule is no need to rebase. Requirement to rebase is no more official as house rule saying ork boys are 20pts per model. If you claim official rule is they must be 32mm then you are flat out cheating. That's just house rule not even suggested by gw
I rememebr playing with my 25 mm orks start of 8th and it was much much easier to get all 30 boyz into combat. half a rank xan make the difference between a dead target and a not dead target which is going to hit back in the close combat pjase. So huge difference.
As to 'force of rule', OK so let's forget about GW as they don't organise (many) tournaments. For ITC events can you go to a GT with 25 mm based orks ? I ask because I don't know it is all ETC where I live unfortunately. ETC for example has very specific guidelines, orks are 32 mm, and I would be very suprised if a player showing up at major ETC tournaments around Europe didn't get DQed with 25 mm based orks.
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
2019/10/30 10:27:46
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
There are plenty of ETC tournaments around here and to my knowledge none of them enforce that base size nonsense.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/10/30 10:50:03
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
addnid wrote: @Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you. Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army. Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so. I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
Nope. Difference is half a rank at most. Generally less if opponent has any brain cells during position.
And gw has not forced rebasing. Official rule is no need to rebase. Requirement to rebase is no more official as house rule saying ork boys are 20pts per model. If you claim official rule is they must be 32mm then you are flat out cheating. That's just house rule not even suggested by gw
I rememebr playing with my 25 mm orks start of 8th and it was much much easier to get all 30 boyz into combat. half a rank xan make the difference between a dead target and a not dead target which is going to hit back in the close combat pjase. So huge difference.
As to 'force of rule', OK so let's forget about GW as they don't organise (many) tournaments. For ITC events can you go to a GT with 25 mm based orks ? I ask because I don't know it is all ETC where I live unfortunately. ETC for example has very specific guidelines, orks are 32 mm, and I would be very suprised if a player showing up at major ETC tournaments around Europe didn't get DQed with 25 mm based orks.
The orks kill by rolling dozens of dices. Losing 10 isn't going to make huge impact in most of the time. It's like more dakka stratagem for bikes. It sounds cool(I roll 36 shots with 6 bikes. I get more shots on 5+!) until you realize you actually just got 2 extra hits. Weee. Big deal. And it's very easy to ensure all 30 don't get to combat if you position right. And most of those who get would then get whether it's 25mm or 32mm.
ETC rules here btw and no disqualifications. And that's the official rule. And how you didn't bother to fix your obviously incorrect(one could even say deliberate lie) statement of "because GW suddenly said so" when GW has never ever NEVER said so? Their statement is still "models came with base it's still valid". GW isn't forcing anything.
If players are claiming then that's on players HOUSE RULES that is moving game away from how GW(you know the company that created the game) INTENDED the game to be played. Sure you can do so. But it's no more intended 40k as 40k where you house rules games to be 2 turn games.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/10/30 11:12:32
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Yeah you are both right (Jidmah and Tneva) . All the ork players who felt compelled to rebase are just fools then. In any case they look better on 32 mm bases, guess we can all agree on that at least ??????
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 11:13:44
Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh
2019/10/30 11:32:15
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Yes, and they fall over a lot less. They should have been on those bases from the beginning, but sadly they were not.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/10/30 16:05:29
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Emicrania wrote: I was thinking about mixing up some of the strong list and I came up with a possible build. Feel free to comment in a constructive way.
The general idea is to fill the trukk with grots to tag stuff and t1 charge, meanwhile you advance with FG and DS with TB. and try to avoid to get any secondary maxed. Gang buster, big game hunter, butchers bill, reaper and headhunter should give out max 3 points as you can put avoid to have the KFF and weirboy in the open and the deffkilla is just gonna go back n forth in order to push the trukks and the meganobz. Beside the grot shield and the nuke grots the rest is way back field vs DS and GSC shenanigans. Terrain is important but I feel, after the last GT that I need to minimize the number of body in the open in the current meta.
Overall I like the list, though. Every time I see the purely static mek gun lists along w/ just a 120 boys, kind of feels really boring (I imagine that's fun to run once in a while, but not the most fun to pilot in week in and out). Most of this army is actually pretty maneuverable.
As a flexible option, maybe drop 1 Flash Git so you can fit them + Baddruk and ammo runt into a trukk (or drop baddruks ammo runt). Running your flash gits in the open might be fine in some games and not others, so you'll have that option open to you without too much loss of power.
I'm not sure how your Deffkilla is helping your MANz at all. It seems to be the weird part of this list, if it's just to help your trukks assault, I'm not sure that's worth it for that alone. He's apparently not good in assault like the Biker Boss from what I understand, so its not like he's going to do much as a counter charger either.
You could shift some stuff around so you could drop him, shift a weirdboy down there (since it doesn't really matter what clan they are), move a SAG to badmoons (it can fire twice then if you *really* need it too, then, which is not a bad pocket option). Should free up ~150ish points for something interesting. Or maybe take a walking Warboss as potential MANz support (or throw him in one of those trukks and get him up there after the MANzDS or Da Jump).
I completly missed that the Wartrike is only for veichle or bikes.... that is I still need to see the numbers on that SAG, @Jid weren´t you making a sheet or something about it? I still belive Deathskulls is better, but i might be wrong.
I really wanna use that T1 charges to clear or tag stuff thought
2019/10/30 16:18:56
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Wartrike has a lot of little nuances about it that make it feel so much weaker than it seems. In the end, its literally just for walkers/wagons to advance and charge. He is pathetic in every other aspect.
Massive footprint for an HQ (am i wrong in saying the largest HQ footprint?) Strenght/AP of melee is in this weird butterzone where its not outright disgusting against infantry, but pathetic against vehicles/monsters, and lacks the RoA to make up for either problems. Shooting is abysmally short and nigh impossible to actually get any meaningful impact with it. 4+ armor no built in invul coupled with his massive footprint = stupid easy to pick off once he starts melee'ing Lacks the warboss Breakin' 'Eads or Keepin' Order rule (whichever it is bosses have i always forget)
I wish those shotguns were considered Pistols given their ridiculously short range and that stratagem to do mortals on retreat should be a built-in rule and work when the ENEMY backs off, not you. That would make him considerably better.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/30 16:32:53
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/10/30 17:08:55
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Vineheart01 wrote: Wartrike has a lot of little nuances about it that make it feel so much weaker than it seems.
In the end, its literally just for walkers/wagons to advance and charge. He is pathetic in every other aspect.
Massive footprint for an HQ (am i wrong in saying the largest HQ footprint?)
Strenght/AP of melee is in this weird butterzone where its not outright disgusting against infantry, but pathetic against vehicles/monsters, and lacks the RoA to make up for either problems.
Shooting is abysmally short and nigh impossible to actually get any meaningful impact with it.
4+ armor no built in invul coupled with his massive footprint = stupid easy to pick off once he starts melee'ing
Lacks the warboss Breakin' 'Eads or Keepin' Order rule (whichever it is bosses have i always forget)
I wish those shotguns were considered Pistols given their ridiculously short range and that stratagem to do mortals on retreat should be a built-in rule and work when the ENEMY backs off, not you. That would make him considerably better.
Well that seals the deal.... I ll take it out...
2019/10/30 18:13:56
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I completly missed that the Wartrike is only for veichle or bikes.... that is I still need to see the numbers on that SAG, @Jid weren´t you making a sheet or something about it? I still belive Deathskulls is better, but i might be wrong.
I really wanna use that T1 charges to clear or tag stuff thought
I totally think a regular SAG is way better as a Deathskull than a Bad Moon, but if you wanted to NOT take another HQ with your options, that was the way of doing it, as the SAG is fine as a Bad Moon (potential re-roll and can shoot twice if you feel so inclined). If you're going to take another HQ option then just stick with your DSSAG.
If you do as I suggest (drop a Flash Git as well as the Wartrike which you seem to be dropping), you actually have a metric ton of options to take with the 154 points you save. Close for a Bonebreaker for the MANz if you wanted (5 points off), Dakkajet, Close to another 5 man MANz squad, etc, etc.
2019/10/30 18:36:57
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Deathskullz were better shooters than Bad Moonz with weapons less than 12 RoF. And that math skews even more if random damage is involved.
SAG is generally best as Deathskullz but it wont be a waste of time as Bad Moonz either.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/10/30 18:49:25
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Out of curiosity, what do people here think will be changed when the CA arrives?
It seems like the Ork codex actually is *pretty* good, but a lot of units are probably just a bit overcosted (or in Smasha Guns case, horribly undercosted). With a few point adjustments, I think it might open up a world of more interesting competitive lists.
Personally hoping Flash Gits and MANz get a point drop, to be more in line with what we say in Space Marines.
Big Mek needs to, as it's absolutely terrible for what you get just to get a KFF that can't even really keep up with your infantry.
Boyz might arguably need a 1 point drop, but that might be too much. Big Shootas and Rokkits and Kombi-weapons should be cheaper to add on, while making Tankbustas more expensive at base cost (they are potentially fine where they are).
Gork and Mork are great rules wise, but probably cost too much for what you get. Stompa is a joke. Two Knights or a Stompa? Not even a contest...
Other stuff like Bikes seem to be way too pricey.
2019/10/30 19:18:20
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Emicrania wrote: I still need to see the numbers on that SAG, @Jid weren´t you making a sheet or something about it? I still belive Deathskulls is better, but i might be wrong.
I really wanna use that T1 charges to clear or tag stuff thought
That math is way beyond the capabilities of a spread sheet or a simple script, since you have a gigantic amount of possibilities as you need all possible hit/wound/save/damage combinations summed up for each shot (2-12), with wounding depending on random strength and damage on additional MW rolls. Just displaying all the combinations in a command line takes about one minute.
I have some code finished, but the part adding up the probabilities for each outcome is bugged and hell to debug. So don't wait for me to finish it, but I can provide the source code (C#) if someone wants to pick it up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: Out of curiosity, what do people here think will be changed when the CA arrives?
It seems like the Ork codex actually is *pretty* good, but a lot of units are probably just a bit overcosted (or in Smasha Guns case, horribly undercosted). With a few point adjustments, I think it might open up a world of more interesting competitive lists.
Personally hoping Flash Gits and MANz get a point drop, to be more in line with what we say in Space Marines.
Big Mek needs to, as it's absolutely terrible for what you get just to get a KFF that can't even really keep up with your infantry.
Boyz might arguably need a 1 point drop, but that might be too much. Big Shootas and Rokkits and Kombi-weapons should be cheaper to add on, while making Tankbustas more expensive at base cost (they are potentially fine where they are).
Gork and Mork are great rules wise, but probably cost too much for what you get. Stompa is a joke. Two Knights or a Stompa? Not even a contest...
Other stuff like Bikes seem to be way too pricey.
Smashas will probably go up, almost every other ork top list is running 12+ of them, wazbomm hopefully gets a point drop to compensate.
I doubt boyz will change, most armies run 2-3 mobs of them, that seems pretty healthy balance to gretchin. GW is also kind of stubborn on horde troop prices.
Flash gits and MANz could use a point drop, but might not get one. MANz will probably get cheaper when the PK joins the PF at 9 points.
I'm fairly sure GW will make buggies cheaper, I doubt they haven't noticed that none of their new models are seeing tournament play. This could be done by dropping both big shootas and rokkits in price, as those are found on all of the buggies.
Outside of that, we have plenty of units that direly could use point drops: warbikers, nob bikers, koptas, kanz, bommers, trukks, battlewagons, MA big mek, pain boy and, of course, the stompa. Whether they get them though, no one can tell.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 19:32:30
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/10/30 19:42:01
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
As was discussed several pages ago, the issue isnt the weapon its the fact that you can get 10+ semi-tough, long range vehicles for so dang cheap. Theyre disproportionally durable for the cost. Either mekgun goes up in price (while smasha either drops or remains the same) or they drop the limit per slot to say 2-3 instead of 6.
I only have 1 mekgun as i havnt gotten around to printing or kitbashing beyond the official model i own. I can tell you, a single mekgun does jack diddly squat lol
I suspect the FA slots to all drop in points, with the only possible exception being stormboyz but even they could use it. And of course, stompa go down, but probably wont go down enough to bother. Killakanz could use help but i think they need rules, not points adjustments, so i dont expect much for them if anything.
Rest of the codex is pretty solid imo. Not perfect but its never gonna be perfect, even the Admech have units they dont wanna use and theyre probably the closest to a "all units are viable" codex out there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 19:44:46
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/10/30 20:20:16
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Smashas will probably go up, almost every other ork top list is running 12+ of them, wazbomm hopefully gets a point drop to compensate.
I doubt boyz will change, most armies run 2-3 mobs of them, that seems pretty healthy balance to gretchin. GW is also kind of stubborn on horde troop prices.
Flash gits and MANz could use a point drop, but might not get one. MANz will probably get cheaper when the PK joins the PF at 9 points.
I'm fairly sure GW will make buggies cheaper, I doubt they haven't noticed that none of their new models are seeing tournament play. This could be done by dropping both big shootas and rokkits in price, as those are found on all of the buggies.
Outside of that, we have plenty of units that direly could use point drops: warbikers, nob bikers, koptas, kanz, bommers, trukks, battlewagons, MA big mek, pain boy and, of course, the stompa. Whether they get them though, no one can tell.
I just tried out my Megatrakk -- I think it's great, but probably doesn't show up in competition because it's just not aggressively pointed enough. I will continue to throw mine in in more casual games no problem.
flandarz wrote:
Burna Boyz REALLY need a point drop. Or Burnas need a 2" increase in range. One of the two.
Yeah, they are basically untakeable as is. You could throw them in a trukk I guess and maybe hope for the best...
Vineheart01 wrote:
i'm hoping the Mekgun goes up, not Smasha.
As was discussed several pages ago, the issue isnt the weapon its the fact that you can get 10+ semi-tough, long range vehicles for so dang cheap.
Theyre disproportionally durable for the cost. Either mekgun goes up in price (while smasha either drops or remains the same) or they drop the limit per slot to say 2-3 instead of 6.
I only have 1 mekgun as i havnt gotten around to printing or kitbashing beyond the official model i own. I can tell you, a single mekgun does jack diddly squat lol
I suspect the FA slots to all drop in points, with the only possible exception being stormboyz but even they could use it. And of course, stompa go down, but probably wont go down enough to bother.
Killakanz could use help but i think they need rules, not points adjustments, so i dont expect much for them if anything.
Rest of the codex is pretty solid imo. Not perfect but its never gonna be perfect, even the Admech have units they dont wanna use and theyre probably the closest to a "all units are viable" codex out there.
Yeah, I think I agree. A full squad of Smashas is just absurd in terms of durability per point. And its tough because its also one of the easiest ways to improve your lists anti-tank / anti-Terminator armour. Dropping under 200 points for a full squad is such an easy way to fill your list out even if you're trying something janky.
On some further thought, I think the Orks have an HQ problem, to be honest, which goes a bit beyond points. SAGs and Weirdboys are good, but the Warboss is a bit lacklustre without the relic klaw.
If you are locked out of index options, walking is kind gakky too. Biker boss can at least redeploy, countercharge, and easily keep up with deepstrikers and Da Jump. Walker boss is kind of just stuck with your initial blob.
Only being able to take an overcosted MA Big Mek w/ KFF is crappy, as its not good in combat, nor can it keep up with your infantry, and it's pushing on double the points of the old Index option.
I hope they bring back some of the model line (a MA Warboss would be *great*. Give me a more survivable Warboss that has the same movement as Ghazzy, and maybe it could take a punch). Biker version too, considering Forgeworld made a really nice model for it.
Deffkilla Wartrike probably needs to be cheaper *and* be able to take the relic klaw. It's an anomaly.
2019/10/30 20:27:26
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
I think part of the issue is that the Warboss doesn't really hit hard, nor are they survivable tbh when compared to other combat-oriented HQ's. Outside of the Killa Klaw relic, you almost never want another Warboss which I find somewhat baffling, as their utility is very niche for their morale ability (most Ork units will be out of range if they have to take it, or are already effectively dead by the point they have to take morale), and the advance and charge, while useful, only really applies to the Biker Boss variant since he can keep up with the units that need it. They're kind of in a weird role where the Killa Klaw more or less defines their usefulness in a list, especially in terms of using them stratagem-wise as a suicide missile. I feel like if they gave buffs more similar to Ghazzy or were less middle of the road as a killy or survivable unit (baseline versus being relic oriented) that they would play more of a central role in the Ork army. Even making so they can take a "Boss Klaw", which has no negative to hit, or having Cybork body as a baseline rule for a 5+ invuln. would make them more palatable.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/30 20:29:07
2019/10/30 20:45:35
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Grimskul wrote: I think part of the issue is that the Warboss doesn't really hit hard, nor are they survivable tbh when compared to other combat-oriented HQ's. Outside of the Killa Klaw relic, you almost never want another Warboss which I find somewhat baffling, as their utility is very niche for their morale ability (most Ork units will be out of range if they have to take it, or are already effectively dead by the point they have to take morale), and the advance and charge, while useful, only really applies to the Biker Boss variant since he can keep up with the units that need it. They're kind of in a weird role where the Killa Klaw more or less defines their usefulness in a list, especially in terms of using them stratagem-wise as a suicide missile. I feel like if they gave buffs more similar to Ghazzy or were less middle of the road as a killy or survivable unit (baseline versus being relic oriented) that they would play more of a central role in the Ork army. Even making so they can take a "Boss Klaw", which has no negative to hit, or having Cybork body as a baseline rule for a 5+ invuln. would make them more palatable.
Yeah, even if the Boss Biker is relegated to Legends, as long as I can legally take him with his current gear / abilities, I would probably never, ever take a walking boss, even if the biker went up in points 20-30%. Walking boss just seems fundamentally useless by contrast, and I'd probably never field one as is unless I'm just screwin' around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 20:54:36
2019/10/30 20:48:09
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Yes orks have a massive HQ problem, and its two-fold
1) The loss (or rather, index only and thus didnt get new shiny treatments in the codex) of our 2 most commonly used HQs and the ultimate iconic one: Big Mek (both foot/bike), Boss on Bike, and MegaBoss. MegaBoss is more of an iconic figure, da biggest n da baddest ork of dem all haz da shiniest armour...after all. Losing the other two was a big slap in the zoggin' face. I get WHY they removed them, but given orks for the longest time has been a kitbashing army...you kinda shouldnt remove all the "kitbash only"units without giving us a replacement... The only one that severely pisses me off is loss of footmek w/ kff. There IS an official GW model for that, i dont care if its "discontinued" the zoggin' thing still exists and doesnt look like a remnant of Gorkamorka either.
2) As mentioned, bosses dont hit hard. I actually have stopped using bosses all together, theyre that sad right now. Something only ~30pts less than a Space Marine Captain is inferior in every single way except raw toughness/wounds (not that it matters he has more wounds), even his mere presence doesnt have that big of an impact while the SM captain does. Warbosses need a complete overhaul, but thats not something i'd expect in a CA.
Its pretty sad when some armies, even armies that arent elitists, have HQs that are just awesome to have around and then other armies like orks/admech are generally spamming whatever the cheapest one is because they really dont do much. Only 2 ork HQs i get proper milage out of is Badruck and SSAG Mek. Weirdboyz only if i have big blobs of boyz to jump, which i usually dont as i play mechanized.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/30 21:03:33
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/10/30 20:55:45
Subject: Re:No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Good points have been made. Fast attack section needs point drops across the board. I think this would also open up some competitive builds. I'm addition if fast attack slots become more effective the deffkilla also becomes better as his ability helps those units.
I also wish they would do something to adjust the weaker kulturs. When was the last time blood axes were even mentioned. The only thing I've seen is the possible use of Snikrot. The blood axe Kultur needs to be 12" or just changed completely .
2019/10/30 21:22:59
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Its pretty sad when some armies, even armies that arent elitists, have HQs that are just awesome to have around and then other armies like orks/admech are generally spamming whatever the cheapest one is because they really dont do much.
Only 2 ork HQs i get proper milage out of is Badruck and SSAG Mek. Weirdboyz only if i have big blobs of boyz to jump, which i usually dont as i play mechanized.
The guy I play with most plays Eldar (in a not hardcore fashion, so it's actually fun). He's always mixing up cool combos because of Eldar character choices (scorpions that explode 3 times per 6, buffing up Wraithguard so they have 4++ saves, etc, etc).
I kind of feel like our lack of interesting HQs makes this kind of stuff impossible. Even if I can't do that kind of stuff, at least let my HQs be buildable to be badass, or incredibly good at support, or something. Always just feels like placeholders to the more interesting parts of the list.
Smash captain was exactly what I was thinking. For just a few more points, you get an insane badass that can fly and be a threat for multiple turns, that also has a useful aura, and that can take a punch.
russellmoo wrote:
Good points have been made. Fast attack section needs point drops across the board. I think this would also open up some competitive builds. I'm addition if fast attack slots become more effective the deffkilla also becomes better as his ability helps those units.
I also wish they would do something to adjust the weaker kulturs. When was the last time blood axes were even mentioned. The only thing I've seen is the possible use of Snikrot. The blood axe Kultur needs to be 12" or just changed completely .
Not sure if they would deal with the Kultur issue in a CA. It's nice that at least 4/7 of the Kulturs are viable and playable, as opposed to other races which are pigeonholed into one.
If blood axes were -1 hit instead outside of 12", would this make it viable? And maybe make it not apply to vehicles or give them a different bonus? (Let's not have -2 to hit Dakkajets...)
Snakebites also seems to be completely useless. I'd rather an army wide 6++ that gives me a bundle of re-rolls, thanks. I have no idea how they'd fix this without a total rework.
I dunno how you'd fix Goffs, either. It's not even *terrible*, its just competing against way better options. More attacks in CC isn't really the issue I have found (if my 30 boys make it, that's going to be enough unless I'm fighting something they can't really kill anyway. Similar to stuff like Nobs / MA Nobz. If I really need more attacks, I'll take Warpath).
Seems like any unit that I might wanna take as a Goff I'd probably just take as an Evil Sun instead.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/30 21:37:52
2019/10/30 21:48:53
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Goffs just excel at something orks already excel at. My Bad Moonz swing in melee hard enough as it is, why would i want the Goff trait? Im not really sure what you could do with Goff to prevent them from being relegated to "green tide S5 boyz"
Deathskullz just confuse me. I dont understand why they gave them so many things and then snakebites JUST got a 6+++ - uh, large majority of the time we dont get a save period so a 6++ on top of many offensive rerolls is just way better. Not to mention the infantry getting Zog Off, not just troops. Snakebites probably need a bonus to wound. Yaknow, snakes, poison n all that. Would be unique since no ork gets bonuses to wound, closest is that single reroll on deathskullz.
Blood Axes really should be -1 to hit outside 12, heck even that new SM variant of "in cover outside 12 if in the open, -1 to hit if in cover and outside 12" would be better. 18" for +1 save on a low-save army in the first place and no other perks? thats pretty lame. And the psuedo fall-back and still shoot/charge is pointless for orks. Dunno bout you guys but i never, EVER, get stuck in combat more than 2 rounds of fighting. Someone either leaves or gets wiped.
Evil Sunz is .. fine... but not in a fluffy way. The bonus to movement is ironically completely useless on all the actual speedy gitz but outright bonkers on the uber slow crap like MANz. But thats the issue....how the heck would you "fix" that so theyre gameplay matches fluff and doesnt somehow radically help the slow-gitz to the point where you'd rather run slow gitz with red paint than fast-gitz with red paint lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 21:53:46
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2019/10/31 03:12:17
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Burna Boyz could be priced at the same cost as Boyz and I'd still have to give it serious thought if I wanted to take them. Having auto-hit guns is good and all, but if you never get close enough to use them, what's the point? Even in a Trukk or BW, you're not always guaranteed to get them in place before the Transport gets popped and they're stuck in no-man's land.
2019/10/31 07:19:16
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
addnid wrote: Yeah you are both right (Jidmah and Tneva) . All the ork players who felt compelled to rebase are just fools then. In any case they look better on 32 mm bases, guess we can all agree on that at least ??????
Nobody says you CAN'T rebase. Just that the official rule is it's optional.
There's difference between "must rebase" and "can rebase"(or "may rebase"). Difference can be seen in definitions of "must" and "can"(or "may").
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/10/31 08:20:18
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
flandarz wrote: Burna Boyz REALLY need a point drop. Or Burnas need a 2" increase in range. One of the two.
I wouldn't take them before they drop below 7 points though... The unit is fundamentally flawed, points are not going to fix that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: The only one that severely pisses me off is loss of footmek w/ kff. There IS an official GW model for that, i dont care if its "discontinued" the zoggin' thing still exists and doesnt look like a remnant of Gorkamorka either.
Random knowledge: I did some digging as to why the KFF mek disappeared, and it appears finecast is to blame. The KFF backpack didn't work out in finecast, and was usually bent completely out of shape when they tried to get it out of the mold (I remember seeing six blisters, all bent like that). GW had to replace over 80% of all finecast KFF meks they sold, and thus decided to that it's simply not worth the trouble.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/31 08:28:30
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/10/31 09:51:37
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
Evil Sunz is .. fine... but not in a fluffy way. The bonus to movement is ironically completely useless on all the actual speedy gitz but outright bonkers on the uber slow crap like MANz. But thats the issue....how the heck would you "fix" that so theyre gameplay matches fluff and doesnt somehow radically help the slow-gitz to the point where you'd rather run slow gitz with red paint than fast-gitz with red paint lol.
I suppose one could keep the bonus to charge for everything, but the advance and movement speed bonuses are only applied to vehicles and speed freaks, with speed freaks getting the usual +2.
But yeah, it is odd how the speedy faction is best used with mass infantry, and the primitive / hoard faction is best used with vehicles. GW didn't really think it through.
You can't even combine the Snake Bite trait with painboys, as they don't stack. Taking a painboy in a snakebite army is pointless, and that's not a good thing.
Snake Bites should have been 6+++ on infantry, beasts and monsters only, which may be increased to 5+++ with painboyz.
I think it might be a fun quirk if the snake bite trait also worked on gretchin. You know what might be nice have in an Ork codex? Squig units and cousins, like what you got WHFB. Like, squig hoppers ridden by grots, squig herds, young squiggoths, that sort of thing. Such units would go well with a snakebite army thematically, especially if their trait was removed from vehicles.
Random knowledge: I did some digging as to why the KFF mek disappeared, and it appears finecast is to blame. The KFF backpack didn't work out in finecast, and was usually bent completely out of shape when they tried to get it out of the mold (I remember seeing six blisters, all bent like that). GW had to replace over 80% of all finecast KFF meks they sold, and thus decided to that it's simply not worth the trouble.
Once again, Finecast has shown to be an absolute blunder and bad for the hobby as a whole. I suspect finecast was also instrumental in WHFB's death, as there were a lot of fantasy units that were in finecast.
Typical of GW to just give up instead of doing a proper job and releasing the big mek in a proper material though. I mean, they did it with the SAG, right? So what's wrong with just taking that kit, making a plastic backpack and arm options?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/31 09:54:27
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2019/10/31 09:56:08
Subject: No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]
tulun wrote: If blood axes were -1 hit instead outside of 12", would this make it viable? And maybe make it not apply to vehicles or give them a different bonus? (Let's not have -2 to hit Dakkajets...)
Both Raven Guard and Jormungandr both have nice implementations of that rule, either would also match blood axes well.
The issue is not that cover sucks, but that orks are rarely out of 18" from their enemy. Few guns have more than 24" range and lots of units simply want to be in combat. The other part of the trait is mostly useless but nice to have, kind of like advance rule for evil suns or the objective secured on deff skulls. Some additional buff like giving +1 to wound against models in cover(kommandoz ability) would also be nice.
The warlord trait compares poorly to the +1 CP from "Follow Me, Ladz!", and should provide some further bonus that matches the kunnin' plan described in its fluff. Having the warboss gain a re-roll ones aura would catapult blood axes right back into playable territory.
Relic is fine.
Bloodaxe stratagem is basically "can deep strike characters for 1 CP less". The CP limit should go and all infantry can be hidden for 1 CP. Giving orks scout (deploy outside 9") would be way to powerful.
Snakebites also seems to be completely useless. I'd rather an army wide 6++ that gives me a bundle of re-rolls, thanks. I have no idea how they'd fix this without a total rework.
Sakebites are odd in that the trait is not bad, the relic is not bad, the stratagem is not bad, and the warlord trait has it's uses, but the whole package doesn't actually create something that can compete with the other clans.
So my first suggestion would be to just have the clan trait stack with other sources of FNP, making Snakebite pain boyz better than all others (like in the fluff). Rolling 5+ is also less of a waste of time than 6+ is, it's also better for infantry than it is for vehicles. You could also throw in that SNAKEBITE GRETCHIN can be affected by stratagems, to push the gretchin theme and create a niche where you'd want snakebites over deff skulls.
In addition, remove the re-roll morale from the warlord trait (nobody needs that) and replace it with something useful.
I dunno how you'd fix Goffs, either. It's not even *terrible*, its just competing against way better options. More attacks in CC isn't really the issue I have found (if my 30 boys make it, that's going to be enough unless I'm fighting something they can't really kill anyway. Similar to stuff like Nobs / MA Nobz. If I really need more attacks, I'll take Warpath).
Seems like any unit that I might wanna take as a Goff I'd probably just take as an Evil Sun instead.
I have given Goff a spin recently, and the models that benefit most from the Goff traits are those which hit really hard - Thrakka, nobz, deff dreads, deff rollas and nauts. Boyz with banner nobz also become insane, as they usually end up with more hits than they had attacks.
If you were able to simply cross the board and smack stuff with your klaws, goff would be decent enough, as the additional attacks are actually very meaningful since they hit on 2+ or 3+, unlike your dakka³ attacks, but right now you need to spend all energy on getting there, which evil suns simply do better.
So goff basically suffer from a general problem in the game, the only way to make them compete would be to not make them about close combat, which is not very goff at all. OR you make Thrakka (and Zagstrukk) powerful enough so people would bring goff just for them - basically the Ultramarine effect.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Typical of GW to just give up instead of doing a proper job and releasing the big mek in a proper material though. I mean, they did it with the SAG, right? So what's wrong with just taking that kit, making a plastic backpack and arm options?
I believe that's how the big mek ended up in the MANz box. I don't think I have ever seen a MA big mek before that, let alone have someone ask for it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/31 09:57:53
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
~1660
