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Funnily enough, it would probably help goffs if 'ard boyz were a codex upgrade rather than a stratagem. Then your boyz might survive getting into combat. It would also be more fluffy, because you'd think the goffs would be into heavy infantry.

I really don't like unit upgrade stratagems. I think its a gakky concept that needs to die. Free stats are not healthy, and I don't see how those are any better than free rhinos.


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 Jidmah wrote:

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Typical of GW to just give up instead of doing a proper job and releasing the big mek in a proper material though. I mean, they did it with the SAG, right? So what's wrong with just taking that kit, making a plastic backpack and arm options?

I believe that's how the big mek ended up in the MANz box. I don't think I have ever seen a MA big mek before that, let alone have someone ask for it.

That's backwards. If they were going to put a HQ in the MANz set they should have put in a MA Warboss.

Has anyone run multiple SAG's? I've knocked up a list which uses a brigade for the extra CP (I was running a lot of stuff anyway so it filled it nicely) and threw 3 SAG meks in for fire support, one of which is the SSAG. I'm thinking that 2 SAG's is better than 1 SSAG, as they have to roll strength for each D6 of shots, and can split their fire if they need to (EG first one rolls lucky). I'm running a fast shooty list, in theory, using bad moons. SSAG will have the +1 to wound vehicles trait, so it'll still be the best.

at 2K I've got 14 lootas and 3 SAG meks for covering fire, I think that will do reasonably well. I'll post my whole list when I get the chance - it's built around my theory that 7 is the ideal number for elite units to be (it's worked really well in the past for me!).

I think Vine runs multi-SAGs, but from my experience they do alright. Just as swingy as you'd think they'd be though. Lots of times they'll either slam opponents hard, or they'll whiff and do nothing.

The Klan Kultur debate has been brought up before and basically it boils down to these changes being made:

Goff units gain +1S, Skarboyz gain AP-1 to their attacks (stacks with weapons like PK or Big Choppa). Makes them premier assault units without redundancy like extra attacks.

Snakebites keep the 6++ save, but that gets buffed to a 5++ when in a Painboy Aura (they're more or less dead as a unit, may as well make them useful with Snakebitez), and they get to reroll 1s to wound against Monsters/Vehicles, as a sign that they have that old tribal hunter feel.

Blood Axes get the new version of -1 to hit when in cover when out of 12" and just counting as being in cover when you're not. Take away falling back and being able to shoot/charge, with +1 to charge, since they of all people should be the deepstrike faction.

Evil Sunz change to be more transport/speed freek oriented. Evil Sunz units can disembark the turn their transport moved, while also allowing the advance and shoot without negatives to hit penalty. Models without the flyer keyword can re-roll advance rolls, while Flyer models can pivot an additional 90 degrees after their initial movement. Makes it so it makes sense to take vehicles in an Evil Sunz list.

I agree with everything Grimskul said.

As for 'Ard Boyz, its just yet another ability that is a stratagem really just so we can say we have several stratagems to pick from. GW is pretty bad about that where generic effects are a strat for some reason, i.e. bellowing smoke clouds, 'ard boyz, snagga klaw, or the Freeboota barrage (that should just be a Flashgitz or even just Badruck thing, since its WEAKER than other variants of it anyway)

I dont even think i'd use 'Ard Boyz if it was 1cp. Like Skarboyz, if you try to use that on multiple boyz that just devours your CP and you really dont get much from it. If it still gave them a 4+, maybe i'd consider it. 5+? No way. Now a 5++....i could get behind that lol (no freakin' way that'd happen)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I agree with everything Grimskul said.

As for 'Ard Boyz, its just yet another ability that is a stratagem really just so we can say we have several stratagems to pick from. GW is pretty bad about that where generic effects are a strat for some reason, i.e. bellowing smoke clouds, 'ard boyz, snagga klaw, or the Freeboota barrage (that should just be a Flashgitz or even just Badruck thing, since its WEAKER than other variants of it anyway)

I dont even think i'd use 'Ard Boyz if it was 1cp. Like Skarboyz, if you try to use that on multiple boyz that just devours your CP and you really dont get much from it. If it still gave them a 4+, maybe i'd consider it. 5+? No way. Now a 5++....i could get behind that lol (no freakin' way that'd happen)

Yeah, I think GW was overly paranoid of how it would interact with Cover and Loot It! stratagems stacking, but that involves so many variables (and CP for that matter) that it realistically will almost never come into play, and if it does, at best its with only one unit. With how much AP is thrown everywhere (especially with SM doctrines), a 4+ save for 1CP regardless of size for the boyz squad is reasonable IMO.

@some bloke

Multiple SAG's are okay for HQ slot filler if you want something besides Weirdboyz since it gives you more of a backfield presence. But I would say that they would 100% have to be Deffskullz if you do a list like that since without that extra D6 shots from the relic, they're that much more swingy and you need those rerolls to do something somewhat consistent with them.

i almost never even get the chance to do Loot It! as it is. By the time one of my vehicles pop thats near my boyz they are down to less than 10 models anyway so i dont even bother.
Bout the only time i ever use it is when i run nobz, which isnt that common since i run badmoonz mono. Pop their transport, 3+ save nobz. And even then usually by the time their wagon drops in, and where i drop it, the wagon usually doesnt die anyway lol

Yeah if it was still 4+ in theory we could get 2+ save boyz if they Looted and were in cover.
By the time that happens, theres at most 15 boyz left. And boyz are terrible at camping in cover, they either have piss range or want to melee things, so they wont be in that cover more than a turn it takes to get through it.
Meanwhile all marines just sit in terrain enjoying armywide 2+. Gotta love it

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i almost never even get the chance to do Loot It! as it is. By the time one of my vehicles pop thats near my boyz they are down to less than 10 models anyway so i dont even bother.
Bout the only time i ever use it is when i run nobz, which isnt that common since i run badmoonz mono. Pop their transport, 3+ save nobz. And even then usually by the time their wagon drops in, and where i drop it, the wagon usually doesnt die anyway lol

Yeah if it was still 4+ in theory we could get 2+ save boyz if they Looted and were in cover.
By the time that happens, theres at most 15 boyz left. And boyz are terrible at camping in cover, they either have piss range or want to melee things, so they wont be in that cover more than a turn it takes to get through it.
Meanwhile all marines just sit in terrain enjoying armywide 2+. Gotta love it

Can't steal the spotlight from GW's golden boys, the SM gang. They almost can't go without releasing a boxed set with marines in some way, and when they finally do (the recent Blood of the Phoenix), its so phoned in when compared to the amount of effort put into the SM supplements. Orks have definitely gotten away better than some other xenos factions but it still pains me everytime I see a new SM lieutenant and then look at our range and see that we still don't have a standalone plastic Warboss or Big Mek kit.

speaking of plastic bosses...how come Wurldkilla doesnt have his own dataslate anymore? it just dawned on me hes been repackaged as a killteam warboss and theres no rules for HIM, just generic boss with klaw/squig

Granted if i remember right he was Goff so probably wouldnt care either way, just find it weird.

I believe his original name was Grukk Face-Rippa, who did indeed have his own datasheet back in 7th. I think they just tried sweeping what happened in Sanctus Reach under the rug fluff-wise, since they don't really bring him up anymore beyond the small blurb in the history timeline. Which is rich, given that Krom Dragongaze, a named SW character from the same campaign event, still has his datasheet in the SW codex in the current edition. I don't understand the aversion GW seems to have regarding Ork characters tbh, is it because we can kitbash them that they don't want to risk any lack of model clampack sales?

 Grimskul wrote:
The Klan Kultur debate has been brought up before and basically it boils down to these changes being made:

Goff units gain +1S, Skarboyz gain AP-1 to their attacks (stacks with weapons like PK or Big Choppa). Makes them premier assault units without redundancy like extra attacks.

Snakebites keep the 6++ save, but that gets buffed to a 5++ when in a Painboy Aura (they're more or less dead as a unit, may as well make them useful with Snakebitez), and they get to reroll 1s to wound against Monsters/Vehicles, as a sign that they have that old tribal hunter feel.

Blood Axes get the new version of -1 to hit when in cover when out of 12" and just counting as being in cover when you're not. Take away falling back and being able to shoot/charge, with +1 to charge, since they of all people should be the deepstrike faction.

Evil Sunz change to be more transport/speed freek oriented. Evil Sunz units can disembark the turn their transport moved, while also allowing the advance and shoot without negatives to hit penalty. Models without the flyer keyword can re-roll advance rolls, while Flyer models can pivot an additional 90 degrees after their initial movement. Makes it so it makes sense to take vehicles in an Evil Sunz list.

I like these changes.

I suppose a lot of the rules (outside of the pointless, crap kulturs) aren't terrible they just ignore fluff. Which is par for the course.

But yeah, it seems really backwards that most of my vehicles I want to be *not* Evil suns. I already move fast enough, unless I'm like a Bonebreaker. Meanwhile, invul save and re-rolls is clutch, or re-rolling 1s to hit.

Gaining +1 move on Boys is a 20% buff, and if you want to shoot, doubling their shooting effectiveness while doubling their movement. And the deepstrike charge becomes *incredibly* consistent, which is fueled by Da Jump. Vehicles even have a stratagem that lets them basically guarantee a charge, so +1 isn't so useful.

All of this is even more pronounced on MANz.

Seems incredibly obvious with just a skimming of the rules how you'd ideally like to setup your units with kulturs.

Oh well. At the very least, 4/7 of the Kulturs aren't bad, and one gets an honourable mention. An update would be good, but at this point, I'd be almost afraid it would break the codices competitive lists.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I agree with everything Grimskul said.

As for 'Ard Boyz, its just yet another ability that is a stratagem really just so we can say we have several stratagems to pick from. GW is pretty bad about that where generic effects are a strat for some reason, i.e. bellowing smoke clouds, 'ard boyz, snagga klaw, or the Freeboota barrage (that should just be a Flashgitz or even just Badruck thing, since its WEAKER than other variants of it anyway)

I dont even think i'd use 'Ard Boyz if it was 1cp. Like Skarboyz, if you try to use that on multiple boyz that just devours your CP and you really dont get much from it. If it still gave them a 4+, maybe i'd consider it. 5+? No way. Now a 5++....i could get behind that lol (no freakin' way that'd happen)

So the thing I found was the 2 times I did go to Ardboys I encountered an interesting scenario. I had 2 units of boys close to the enemy. the non ard boys were a bit closer. both were in range to be able to charge. both were still over 20+. My opponent had to choose which unit to delete. the real close one or the semi close ard boys. IIRC correctly he ended up trying to wipe ardboys and failed. then I brought the full unit back with CP. the endless green tide strat pulls more weight on them than regular boys but I also forced him to shoot the ardboys even though a closer unit was there.

I've got a 2k game to play this weekend (hopefully) and I've knocked together a list which I think maximises board control and CP, with a view to using tellyporta (first time), ramming speed, and shoot twice strats in excess.

All Deffskulls.

List (1999pts):


Gives me 19CP to play with. Thinking to rush 2 battlewagons forward and take an opportunistic charge, if needed, using ramming speed + advance (wartrike). third battlewagon will be in the tellyporta. Each wagon has 2 rokkits, tankbusta bomms and a KMB mek in there, for 3+D3 S8 shots, 2 of which can be rerolled, and all the shootas too.

All the filling-in stuff (smashas, koptas, grots) have roles to play - koptas can outflank for opportunistic KMB shots at characters, grots stand around SAGs to keep them from being shot. MSU grots means minimal morale casualties (either you kill all of them or none of them). smashas and lootas are there to shoot middleweight stuff. SSAG will hunt tanks. SAG's will prey on the weak and aim to overkill, so they don't disappoint.

Main concerns are the 2 primaris hovertanks, the anti-chaff one and, more worryingly, the anti-tank monster that fires twice if it moves less than 1/2 movement with a 2 shot lascannon. last game they were buffed with rerolling hits & wounds due to auras. Main questions are:

1: If I get into CC with the repulsors, do they have the ability to fall back and still fire? if not, I feel the deffkilla may have a suicide mission to undertake on turn 1. That, or some jumped grots, 9" charge to make... could be a valid option. could perhaps even jump grots behind and try for a wrap to keep it locked down for more than one turn, forcing an intervention charge which might throw off his groove.

2: any other advice for facing ultramarine primaris, really! I know he likes his 1/2 movement power, which can screw with my wagons. generally the plan is to gun down as much anti-infantry as possible (anti-chaff repulsor and the aggressors are a priority) so that when my wagons inevitably die, he can't deal with the resulting flood of orks. Not 100% on the deffkillas purpose, but if he can't fall back & shoot (which I suspect he can because spehs mehreens) he could block the main gun for turn 1. he won't be the warlord so he's no great loss!

Swap the Lootas for more Mek Guns. Boring as it sounds. Could straight up swap for 2 guns and have some spare change for upgrades (grot riggers on your wagons?), or drop 1 boy for a 3rd.

I would actually love to say 1-1 swap for a Tankbustas, put those in one of the wagons (fits the style of your list like 100 times better)...

Lets see

You drop 5 boys, add a smasha, swap them for lootas?

Yeah, that works I think.

I've been having an increasingly difficult time going second these days. I have been getting a lot of practice doing it, since my dice hate that roll-off, but I'm not having any success.

Even with grot shields 15 lootas are gone after 90 hits (easily done in my meta), and those 6 grots per loota make them cost 35pts each...hardly worth it IMHO.

The mek guns get wiped out before I can use them, and certainly by turn 2. I have a SSAG but even he has awful trouble staying alive long, and dedicating 30 boyz at 210 points as a screen makes him way to expensive.

I can put some things behind cover but against IH flyers (et al) there is precious little space back there.

I certainly try to play the objectives but when I start my turn 1 with a 1000 point army it gets difficult.

Any tips?

 Grimskul wrote:
I believe his original name was Grukk Face-Rippa, who did indeed have his own datasheet back in 7th. I think they just tried sweeping what happened in Sanctus Reach under the rug fluff-wise, since they don't really bring him up anymore beyond the small blurb in the history timeline. Which is rich, given that Krom Dragongaze, a named SW character from the same campaign event, still has his datasheet in the SW codex in the current edition. I don't understand the aversion GW seems to have regarding Ork characters tbh, is it because we can kitbash them that they don't want to risk any lack of model clampack sales?

that would also explain where Da Council Of Da Waaaagh! went.
Tau kept their "The Eight" and it switched to a LoW type thing. But that wasnt part of Sanctus Reach, that was just the Farsight Enclave book.
Not that i'd want the Council in the current rules though. Our relics arent anywhere near as good and bosses have a much weaker bite than before. Would be amusing to see it return but i dont think it'd be a viable choice outside "fun" stuff, mostly because it would be Goff locked anyway.
its funny. The main reason we didnt use Nobz in the past was insta-death mechanics made T4 multiwound models kinda pointless (except MANz because they were so unusually cheap). But at the same token, most of our gak RELIED on the insta-death or vehicle explosion lol..so it has a lot less bite now

 JimOnMars wrote:
I've been having an increasingly difficult time going second these days. I have been getting a lot of practice doing it, since my dice hate that roll-off, but I'm not having any success.

Even with grot shields 15 lootas are gone after 90 hits (easily done in my meta), and those 6 grots per loota make them cost 35pts each...hardly worth it IMHO.

The mek guns get wiped out before I can use them, and certainly by turn 2. I have a SSAG but even he has awful trouble staying alive long, and dedicating 30 boyz at 210 points as a screen makes him way to expensive.

I can put some things behind cover but against IH flyers (et al) there is precious little space back there.

I certainly try to play the objectives but when I start my turn 1 with a 1000 point army it gets difficult.

Any tips?

I don't know what your meta looks like, but if every opponent you come up against is deleting half your army in a single turn, I really don't know what advice I can give you. Seems like they're either tailoring their lists to wipe ya, or they're just extremely lucky (or you're extremely unlucky). Maybe both. Orkz aren't exactly the most durable Faction around, but 1000 pts per turn is just crazy.


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Especially since you seem to have enough terrain (at least enough to provide cover). Are you using the Tellyporta Stratagem? If you're never getting first go anyway, you might as well throw as much we you can into there and, at least, spare your important units from a spanking.

One piece of advice vs snipers and flyer spam that delete SSAG and lootas: deploy always out of sight, if you got juicy target T1, just move them a floor up and pop more Dakka. Or jump them. Or both.

The MA big mek is ok, he's just severely overcosted. He's slow, a mediocre fighter and his shooting is meh, so basically you're paying 119pts for a 9" 5++ bubble that cannot keep up with the rest of your army, which just isn't worth it.

I'd say 85-95pts would be fair.

 Oguhmek wrote:
The MA big mek is ok, he's just severely overcosted. He's slow, a mediocre fighter and his shooting is meh, so basically you're paying 119pts for a 9" 5++ bubble that cannot keep up with the rest of your army, which just isn't worth it.

I'd say 85-95pts would be fair.

If I only had to pay 85, gun included (KMB) for the slow big Mek, acceptable. I guess.

But yeah, compare what 119 points gets you close to in the SM codex. Woof.

You want to feel real bad?

Assault Centurions. 52 points for a M4", WS3+, BS3+, S5, T5, W4, A3 (4 on Sarge), 2+ save model. With Hurricane Bolters, two Flamers, and a Thunder Hammer that has no hit penalty AND AP-4. They also Ignore Cover while the Sarge is alive, because feth you.

Sure, they're slow. But they're cheaper than a Warboss, hit pretty much as hard or harder, and are more durable with that 2+ as compared to a Boss's 4+. And their Dakka is respectable.

Its a marine though, so its ok that it gets a beast of a statline and equipment whilst xenos get feth all /s

Better comparison is to MANz. Which they still outperform, even accounting doe the 17ppm increase.

Yeah SM stuff used to be about 40-50% more expensive than the ork equiv for that ridiculous stat boost. Two of any ork equiv to a marine should be roughly equal in an ideal vacuum, not even close now. Orks get DakkaDakkaDakka and kultures? Boyz go up a point. Marines get doctrines, better traits, and bolter disc? Better take a point off.
Now theyre more like 20%. And still have just as big a power gap.

Aggressors severely piss me off too. Theyre insane for the cost. They have no business having 3 freaking wounds either.

You know a dex is kinda ridiculous when people refuse to use something thats arguably overpowered, because its not as good as other tactics. I would LOVE to get something like that Tactical War Suit, but ive never seen a single marine use it because "its not as good as the rest of the dex"

There's a lot of things Marines get that I wish we did. I'd be happy if Nobz really WERE MEQs, including the stat line. I'll even take the same PPM. I don't even want the BEST Marines, you could give me the pre-Codex stuff. I could do a lot with that kinda statline in an Ork army.

Played an intro game for a player returning to 40k and new to 8th. So basically had a nice chilled Snakebites list with some killa kanz, Boyz and a warboss.
I was doing a lot of teaching, but actually I quite liked having the 6++ on my Boyz, and fearless kanz. The only thing I really didn't like was how utterly pump a warboss is now. Granted I gave him a big choppa, and the Surly as a Squiggoth warlord trait, but I expected that when I charged him solo into a unit of 10 vanguard that he would take a little less than 2, nearly 3, turns to finally wipe out 10 t3 1w 4+ dudes.
It was actually depressing how bad this once mighty powerhouse has become.
Yeah with a killa klaw, and brutal but kunning, fight twice and orks is never beaten a warboss can be pretty sweet, but surely a base, Un-buffed Warboss should be able to cleave a unit of bog standard oomies to bits in about a turn of combat?

Just a bit disappointed, I never used to run a list without a Warboss, now they only come out for games like this. Bit sad really.

 r_squared wrote:
Played an intro game for a player returning to 40k and new to 8th. So basically had a nice chilled Snakebites list with some killa kanz, Boyz and a warboss.
I was doing a lot of teaching, but actually I quite liked having the 6++ on my Boyz, and fearless kanz. The only thing I really didn't like was how utterly pump a warboss is now. Granted I gave him a big choppa, and the Surly as a Squiggoth warlord trait, but I expected that when I charged him solo into a unit of 10 vanguard that he would take a little less than 2, nearly 3, turns to finally wipe out 10 t3 1w 4+ dudes.
It was actually depressing how bad this once mighty powerhouse has become.
Yeah with a killa klaw, and brutal but kunning, fight twice and orks is never beaten a warboss can be pretty sweet, but surely a base, Un-buffed Warboss should be able to cleave a unit of bog standard oomies to bits in about a turn of combat?

Just a bit disappointed, I never used to run a list without a Warboss, now they only come out for games like this. Bit sad really.

Yeah, that's the saddest part. What used to be the most killy unit in our army and barely cut through chaff units at the best of times without buffs. It really is a travesty

 Jidmah wrote:

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

My full list below. Tell me what you guys think!

Spoiler:

Freebootaz Battalion:

HQ - SSAG + Badrukk
TR - 3x Gretchin
Elite - 10x Nobz with Kustom shoota (for 40 shots!) go in the Chinork
Heavy - Battlewagon with Deffrolla and Big shootas
Heavy - 8 Flashgitz
Heavy - 4x Smasha gun
Trans - Chinork Warkopta

Deffskull Outrider Detachment:

HQ - Wartrike
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - 2x Scrapjet
FA - 2x Scrapjet
FA - Shokkjump Dragsta

So far I have had some success with the buggies. But that wasn't in a very competetive environment. I am not expecting to win a lot, just have a lot of fun.

Looks good, but no KFF? At the very least put one mek in there and use the stratagem to protect them T1. I'm going to run a Morkanaut and two KFF to keep my stuff safe, otherwise something like dreads or predators will have a field day blowing up your buggies.

Didn't give the Wazbomb with KFF a thought because most of my army is Deafskulls and has an inherent 6++. But i gave it a try during a game yesterday and he did well and is quite usefull. So the Wazbomb is in. Thanks for mentioning!

Apart from that I changed out the Battlewagon with a Big Trakk with Supa-skorcha in my final list. More fun and the BW didn't perform as well as expected. The Big trakk is just a little less tough but can dish out some reliable damage. If not blown to pieces straight away, but then the 15 wounds bullet-magnet will have 'protected' the buggies in its own way.

 r_squared wrote:

Just a bit disappointed, I never used to run a list without a Warboss, now they only come out for games like this. Bit sad really.

yea i kinda only take one now for the auto pass LD and advance and charge, thats kinda 'what he's for' now.

There are some desperation tricks you can run on him. You could drop loads of CP on him fighting twice and even fighting again if he gets killed, with the relic power klaw i'v managed to kill a knight like that!

tulun wrote:
Swap the Lootas for more Mek Guns. Boring as it sounds. Could straight up swap for 2 guns and have some spare change for upgrades (grot riggers on your wagons?), or drop 1 boy for a 3rd.

I would actually love to say 1-1 swap for a Tankbustas, put those in one of the wagons (fits the style of your list like 100 times better)...

Lets see

You drop 5 boys, add a smasha, swap them for lootas?

Yeah, that works I think.

Ah ok, so drop lootas for Tankbustas, and drop boys for space in the wagon for TB's and points for mek guns?

I'll definitely have a look and see how that shoehorns in, having some Tankbustas would be a good option. I could drop a Mek for a couple more TB's (as they will fill an elites slot for the brigade, and perform a similar role).

Cheers!