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Uhm, ok it's clear that GW don't want to see Stompas on the table. 50 points reduction, what a joke.

Nice that the buggies got a reduction - it was well deserved. Although the Deffkilla Wartrike did also need to go down, it's the weakest when it comes to damage output, and while the aura is nice, the things it can boost are still too expensive.

I'm sad that Trukks are still too expensive - it would have been nice to make Trukk boys viable through a good reduction, but I guess only points is not enough (that would break other things), you need some kind of rules change to make 11 boyz + a nob pose any kind of threat,

Same with Warbikers - I would have liked to see them reduced a bit too, for me they simply never manage to do much. They kill a squad of scouts or rangers, and maybe hold an objective for a turn, then they get shot off the board without effort. I don't think they've ever made their points back for me.

Oh and then we have the Burnas... yeah thanks for the token reduction, but they are simply just useless. Come on, give us an updated datasheet or a useful strategem, they just don't work as they are today. It's such a shame, because I love the models, and the idea of them.

Well well, maybe in CA 2020...

I still have to do the math, but I am convinced that the guffie are still not worthy of competitive play.
The Stompa has been a slap in the face.
The transports are overpriced, at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinkin to buy some orks but I just saw the trailer for the next PA, we are last than? in March?!

The burna one was hilarious.
"We dropped burnas by 2pts. Now theyre useful right guys?"
*simo reduces the price of KBB to 80pts*
"Ignore that"

Am I going nuts or have the prices increased for some units? I could have sworn the buggies were 35 euros. They are 40 now and so are mek guns. And morkas 100?

Or were they always those prices?

Well, the Dragsta and the Scrapjet compete for the same targets, so I'd say our best anti-infantry Buggy is the KBB and our best AA buggy is the Scrapjet. Those Burnas and Rivet Gun on the KBB can put in some work, especially if you run Evil Sunz, and the Scrapjet just eats vehicles.

I'd say both of those easily bump up a tier. The others may, more or less, remain static.

....they... did...
The buggies cost 50USD now, they were 45.

"HAH! Now that they want to buy them, JACK THE PRICES!!!"
typical GW...

Sneaky little hobgitzes!!

Gretching are also up to 14.50 now

 flandarz wrote:
To be fair, the Snazzwagon gets more shors with its gun, and against MEQ the S difference is negligible (but I'll admit the difference between 1 and 2 damage is a high hurdle) and they're both so fast the difference between 24" and 36" will likely never come up. It also has slightly better grenades.

The distance is important to target valuable targets on another flank and stay away from threats. You don't want to park a buggy in bolt drill and plasma range.

What a Snazzwagon does better than a KBB is area denial. It's tougher to kill at range and riskier to kill in CC. It may not kill a whole lot, but three of them lined up can easily deny a quarter of the board to your opponent (assuming a proper amount of terrain).

Look, go play a snazzwagon and tell me how that went. -1 to hit is a theoretical advantage at best, and if you have proper amount of terrain, those buggies will be primarily blocking each other. The only reason why the KBB is not hot garbage is because it is basically three deffguns on a very mobile and durable platform. S5 AP-2 1D is a profile that is not needed in an ork army and therefore worthless, as is paying 80 points to deal d3 MW on a 4+. Heck, when you think about, at 100 points the squig buggy does all that vastly better.

Is it optimal? Probably not. But you could probably find a use for it in your army and not regret the decision. If you HAD to choose KBB or Snazzwagon, I'd also choose the former every single time, but I ain't gonna be mad if I bring both. I've had Snazzwagons win games by just sitting on an Objective and being a pain to remove from it.

So you are telling me that a Snazzwagon is better at sitting on an objective because -1 to hit? While a KBB could sit on the very same objective and actually contribute to winning the game?
Plus, how is the buggy holding the objective? Even tau could assault it and holt their own in combat, while just outnumbering it to take the objective.

 Emicrania wrote:
I was thinkin to buy some orks but I just saw the trailer for the next PA, we are last than? in March?!

Looks like it. Seems the rumour of PA4 being wolves and orks was wrong.

But hey necrons don't even know when they get! PA7 earliest by the look of it.

They're running out of space marines to pit against them, so Necrons will probably be left out, just like in the Vigilus campaign.

Or, no I know, they'll be pitted against Imperial Knights, who will get an awesome new knight variant with psychic powers, and the Necrons will get... uh, a one-use relic with a 4+ chance to deny the witch, or something.

Anyway, it would be weird if orks got anything else than a plastic Weirdboy IMO, given the theme and all, but then on the other hand, Ghazzy hears the voices of Gork and Mork so there is some connection there too, so those rumors (which I always thought were wishlisting) might have some truth to them. Too bad he's locked into Goffs. This with the klans is nice and all, but it kinda annoys me that special characters are always locked in to one specific subfaction.

If you're using a KBB and always staying outside of 24", you might be better off using Gitz in a Trukk at that point. 6 S7 AP-2 D2 shots at Ork BS ain't gonna get you too far. That's 2.33 hits (like 2.5 if you got Bad Moonz, but why would you?), 1.55 Wounds vs MEQ, and 2.03 Damage after MEQ Saves.

Snazzy puts in a more precarious situation, but has 9 S5 AP-2 D1 shots, netting 3.5 hits (like 4.2 with Bad Moonz, but again: why?), 2.33 Wounds against MEQ, and 1.55 Damage after Saves. Not really doing much worse than the KBB there (it deals 3 damage for every 4 damage the KBB puts out).

Obviously these numbers change drastically within 8", where the Burnas come into play, but this was an argument about Range, right?

A -1 to hit is 16.6% less damage on average. That's fairly significant, at least to me. Another example: against S6 AP-3 D1 weapons firing at BS 4+ (hypothetical gun for easy maths), it would take 32 shots to take out a KBB, while it would take 48 shots to take down the Snazzwagon. Unless you mean "hypothetical" in that no one would ever shoot it, which is fair.

I can literally drive them into gaps between building to block access to an Objective that is held by, say, Grots. Remember that Buggies break into separate units on deployment, so there's no reason I need to send them all the same way and they shouldn't block each other. At least, no more than any other Buggy, so using "they'll block each other" as an argument is disingenuous if you're stance is that another Buggy is better.

I think you forgot that Buggies have a large footprint. Park it sideways 2.9" from the Objective, between it and your opponent and even if they charge you, they'll be unlikely to Consolidate and Pile In to reach it. Unless they were already close enough to do so regardless. Depending on how you mark objectives, the base on a Buggy is large enough to practically keep any other unit from entering 3", of you plop it dead center on a flag, or some such.

In which way would the KBB contribute more than the Snazz, were it sitting on an Objective? I already ran MEQ math out above, and it barely ekes out the Snazz, except in instances where the enemy is already within 8". If you got it guarding an Objective, your opponent would be pretty idiotic to just walk their units within 8" and let you beat on them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got off point, but that is: the Snazz and the KBB fulfill different roles in your army. To me, the Snazz is designed to be a durable nuisance that blocks paths of fire and travel to your opponent, while the KBB is designed to get in close and wipe out chaff and other low T units. They don't really equate well to each other.

Love 30 point koptaz wtf .
I mean they can use ramming speed can be useful, can be buffed vs fly with +1 to hit.
They can free deep strike.
They habe 2d3 str 5 attacks
They have 4 wounds
OH and they fly
OH and 6 str 5 shots each 36 "
Wy the hell someone use a bike now?

Gruxz wrote:
I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95

If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer

If this is legit zhardsnark for 95 is decent...

I’m still hopeful it’s ghaz as the new PA6 model.... and the Mek w Kff is either the old model or another new model.
The freakin title of the book is the beast!!! This means he’s finally ascended into prime ork status. If it’s not a new ghaz model I’ll be shocked...
I think a viable competitive list can be made w evil suns and freebooters.
Zhardsnark
Wartrike
2x shock jump dragster
2x deff dread teleport bomb
Weird boy
2-3 boy units
2-3 grot units
2-3 Flashgit units
6+ smasha guns
Big Mek kff
Badrukk

gungo wrote:

Gruxz wrote:
I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95

If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer

If this is legit zhardsnark for 95 is decent...

No zhadsnark is still the same. He read was reading the list from fw and literally said warboss on warbike. Zhad was like 10 units before that.

That seems like a new entry to me, like the bm kff

Gruxz wrote:

gungo wrote:

Gruxz wrote:
I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95

If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer

If this is legit zhardsnark for 95 is decent...

No zhadsnark is still the same. He read was reading the list from fw and literally said warboss on warbike. Zhad was like 10 units before that.

That seems like a new entry to me, like the bm kff

To be fair zhards model is easily used as a warboss on bike so it would be a nice bone to give orks. Especially since the 2 bigger loses to the index is big mek w kff and warboss on bike.

Are pks still 13 pts?

Gruxz wrote:

gungo wrote:

Gruxz wrote:
I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95

If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer

If this is legit zhardsnark for 95 is decent...

No zhadsnark is still the same. He read was reading the list from fw and literally said warboss on warbike. Zhad was like 10 units before that.

That seems like a new entry to me, like the bm kff

That is very good news for us - it means that the Biker Warboss won't be going to legends and any tournament which allows leviathan dreads will also have to allow the warboss on warbike.

Exactly Jidmah.

You can find the video here:

https://youtu.be/f2qF4fkP-xY

At 37:37 he mentions the warboss on warbike

gungo wrote:

Gruxz wrote:
I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95

If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer

If this is legit zhardsnark for 95 is decent...

I’m still hopeful it’s ghaz as the new PA6 model.... and the Mek w Kff is either the old model or another new model.
The freakin title of the book is the beast!!! This means he’s finally ascended into prime ork status. If it’s not a new ghaz model I’ll be shocked...
I think a viable competitive list can be made w evil suns and freebooters.
Zhardsnark
Wartrike
2x shock jump dragster
2x deff dread teleport bomb
Weird boy
2-3 boy units
2-3 grot units
2-3 Flashgit units
6+ smasha guns
Big Mek kff
Badrukk

Ghaz is literally referred to as the Beast by Orks and man too.

I've mentioned this before but in my head canon Ghaz actually conquers the galaxy in our current timeline then is sent back in time by our lads Gork and Mork to find more fights. He gets sent to post Heresy pre 40k setting (35k?) and becomes the Beast of the books as we know them. Thus becoming responsible for our klans as they are now. So Ghaz & the Beast are one and the same.

Not sure on the competitive viability of the ES list. Buggies doe very quickly.

E - keeping our boss on bike and KFF Mek is bloody great news. That is just the bone we needed. On the Stompa - of course GW don't want us to take it, it's not expensive enough a kit.

Already had a chance to play with the new points changes. I experimented with shokkjump dragstas, kmb deff dreads, and flash gitz. The game isn't much to write home about, it only ended up being 2 rounds because something came up and we had to cancel it early. I don't have the list on me but it was basically deathskulls brigade with 3 SAG's, 3 dragstas, 3 KMB dreads, and gretchin and kommandos to fill the other slots. I had a freeboota battalion as well which was basically badrukk, weirdboy, gretchin, and flash gitz in a trukk.
Deathskulls shokkjump dragstas were good, being able to run 3 did actually feel worth while and I was able to capitalise on their mobility. I had smasha guns too, the 2 point nerf didn't really change much list building wise given all the other cuts. The kmb deff dreads were good too but I think they stepped on the toes of the dragstas, I think swapping the deff dreads out scrapjets would of benefited my list a bit more and been lil cheaper.
The flash gitz worked well for me and the 60 point drop effectively paid for their trukk. It felt a lot less of a risk having to take flash gits because their total cost was sitting around 300 vs starting off at 300 for 10. A full mob of 10 flash gitz is actually slightly cheaper than a full mob of lootas. I think there is merit to that. Lootas have the potential to land more shots via spamming CP but they really depend on the CP to yield consistent result. Flash gitz won't have that same high ceiling of getting 60 shots a turn but they will always yield 30 shots without any use of CP. Having them be cheaper makes it feel more like there's a choice to be made between the two in my opinion.
With the point cuts I was able to do a deathskulls brigade + freeboota battalion and still have a variety of toys. I ended up with 150 more points then I would have prior to CA19. Given the point costs I was basically able to run an extra buggy(or dread) and a trukk, with a lot of CP to support my souped up shokk attack gun.
I think with units like buggies, redundancy is really important and the points drops are enabling that.

Next up I'm unironically considering a killa kan centric list. Loaded with big shootas you're basically paying 7 points per t5 sv3+ wound, which doesn't sound so bad. The morale is a huge issue but orks can work around that. I think they could have a lot of value in just being an obnoxious roadblock where their purpose won't be to kill things but to just swamp objectives or tie up units. The points drop will also mean that taking characters to support the kans will sting a lot less, if I run 18 kans I'll now have 180 extra points which could go into their character support.

Hmm, Deffkoptas at 30pts seem pretty ok now (better than Warbikers at 23, right?. Although I've never run them with twin big shootas, I guess they would be mostly used to grab objectives and tie up enemy vehicles, so damage output is not a priority. Any thoughts on this?

You can do a bunch of silly things with them, as they are flying speed freek vehicle - they qualify for a lot of stratagems.
For example, you can give them +1 to hit against other flyers, protect them with exhaust cloud or charge them into combat with ramming speed.

At 44 for dual rokkits, they might just be cheap enough to field again.

 Jidmah wrote:
You can do a bunch of silly things with them, as they are flying speed freek vehicle - they qualify for a lot of stratagems.
For example, you can give them +1 to hit against other flyers, protect them with exhaust cloud or charge them into combat with ramming speed.

At 44 for dual rokkits, they might just be cheap enough to field again.

Is it confirmed we are losing the KMB option?

29 points for a KMB Kopta sounds incredible, especially as a Deathskull.

KMB option was index only and all index stuff is Legacy when that becomes a thing.
So for the short time being, its still legal to KMB Kopta, but i think Legacy goes into effect when CA19 drops. I think, anyway.

But yeah, i dont see why bikers exist right now.

Koptas are 30pts w/ twinbigs. Seeing as how Koptas have lower model max, cant really compare max vs max.
Max koptas is 5 models, so 150pts for 5 T5, 4W models with 4+ save and 10D3 S4 attacks in melee, with the option for Killsaws (not sure if i'd bother with that or not). They are Vehicles so Ramming Speed, innate psuedo-deepstrike (14" of boardedge limitation), and still can use Exhaust Clouds. Theres also the added benefit of while the gun is the same RoF and strength it has twice the range, so unlike bikers they can actually AVOID the things that instaspork them.
5 Warbikers by comparison is only 115pts but half the wounds, no deepstrike, no ramming speed, only the Nob can take klaw instead of any of them (granted, its stronger, but this unit shouldnt go after things only a klaw can reliably hurt anyway), and only 12 S4 attacks + 4 S5 attacks (w/ no klaw).

Koptas at that price feels like a nice backfield anti-deepstrike deterrent, with the speed and Fly allowing them to immediately jump to the front line if needed. They still hate autocannons, but it takes 2 hits to kill them instead of 1, and for a 7pt difference...that matters a lot to me.
Might be time to finally finish painting my gakton of AOBR koptas. Think i have 14 of them and only 4 are in playable condition, 3 painted lol

edit: Also Koptas auto-advance 6, something i really dont understand why bikers dont get. That urks me so much when i use my bikers that i need to advance them and i roll a zoggin' 1...

Minimum brigade now is:

3 Weirdboys
6 10x Grots
3x Meks (KMS)
3x Kopta Shootas
3x Mek Gunz (smashas)

642 points I think? Probably still not worth it (Meks losing the KMB makes them the suck...), but kind of nutty, that's 15 CP w/ Battleforge right there.

Can easily upgrade the weirdboys to SAGs at 18 points a pop, too, as 3 weirdboys is probably too much anyway.

Not really sure i'd say the Mek sucks now that they lack KMBs
KMSs are only half range, but otherwise identical. Theyre character protected so not like its difficult to get them in range anyway. I usually have one in my nauts with an Oiler, that 2hp heal sometimes makes the difference in a game for me and i rarely need more than 12" anyway, since the gork dropped in within 9" regardless.

I would probably shift one to a small Kommando squad though for some T3-4 objective annoyance. Ive had unusual luck with that.

I would like to play Gorkanaut, but I'm not sure if he will fit in ma team.

- 60 boyz
- 10 gretch
- 10 nobs w/ 5 big choppas
- 10 tankbustas
- trukk (taking nobz)
- battlewagon( taking tankbastas)
- 3 deffkoptas

With a warboss and stuff, it goes 1500p.

I'm not sure putting a Gorkanaut for 2000p, I think i have no dakka, I might take some lootas and gretch, but not sure, maybe a dakkajet, opinions?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Not really sure i'd say the Mek sucks now that they lack KMBs
KMSs are only half range, but otherwise identical. Theyre character protected so not like its difficult to get them in range anyway. I usually have one in my nauts with an Oiler, that 2hp heal sometimes makes the difference in a game for me and i rarely need more than 12" anyway, since the gork dropped in within 9" regardless.

I would probably shift one to a small Kommando squad though for some T3-4 objective annoyance. Ive had unusual luck with that.

Fair enough. I’ve typically slogged mine. Having a 29” threat range has been invaluable; pistol range is harder. I can’t even space out to prevent charges.

Shame kommandos are losing their big shoota options too. The MSU w/ ObSec seems decent enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man, Kommando's utility is way worse in codex vs index eh?

1) Nob is locked into a power klaw. *zero* upgrade options. Meaning you probably aren't taking one, so they are LD6.
2) No longer able to take any kind of proper ranged shooting

It seems like they are best w/ ObSec, meaning Deathskullz, which makes that infiltrate -> charge unreliable even with 'Ere we go.

If Kommandos could take Shootas, I might use them all of the time. They'd be such an annoying little unit. For 15 extra points (max unit) over a regular boy squad, I get a unit of boys can deep strikes instead of using Da Jump or 2 CP. If I could plink them in cover, they get a 4+ armour save. Not bad for an 8 point Boy.

Kebabcito wrote:
I would like to play Gorkanaut, but I'm not sure if he will fit in ma team.

- 60 boyz
- 10 gretch
- 10 nobs w/ 5 big choppas
- 10 tankbustas
- trukk (taking nobz)
- battlewagon( taking tankbastas)
- 3 deffkoptas

With a warboss and stuff, it goes 1500p.

I'm not sure putting a Gorkanaut for 2000p, I think i have no dakka, I might take some lootas and gretch, but not sure, maybe a dakkajet, opinions?

Wait for ork PA, I have 3 gorkanauts, have tested them extensively, and I can tell you they are not good in the current meta. I was hoping they would lose at least 20 points. Knights underperform currently, for the exact same reasons. you don’t want, for now, to add a gorkanaut.
I am certain that in 2020, at some point, there will be a time. Either through a PA strat, or just by a shift in the meta.

addnid wrote:


Wait for ork PA, I have 3 gorkanauts, have tested them extensively, and I can tell you they are not good in the current meta. I was hoping they would lose at least 20 points. Knights underperform currently, for the exact same reasons. you don’t want, for now, to add a gorkanaut.
I am certain that in 2020, at some point, there will be a time. Either through a PA strat, or just by a shift in the meta.

You know, I wonder if in a buggy spam / mechanized list, Gorks / Morks might actually become a hair better. I think in the person's list above, yeah, adding a Gork/Mork would probably be a waste of time, unless it was a casual environment.

But I could see them doing well, as they tend to scare people (without being that threatening, really). But in reality, it might just be better to field 3-4 extra buggies instead.