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addnid wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
CA wasn't too bad for us. One point increase (and kind of a joke increase at that, considering the Smasha is still real good at that cost), and a lot of solid decreases. Of course, there are things like the Stompa and Burnas which are just silly, but all in all we did well.

Well so many of our gak units will stay gak, so that is a pity. especially because our good units are still as good... So basically the whole internal balance shift opportunity which could have enabled us to change what we bring to a tourney was missed. A total missed opportunity i would say. But yes orks were not nerfed at all. Everyone who didn't want things to change can be relieved...

IMO a lot of people here are complaining that Santa Da Red Gobbo only brought them 75% of their wish list instead of 100%.
- All buggies went down by more than most of us dared to dream - common opinion was that they were 10-15% overpriced, they wend down by 15-30%
- Flash gits were borderline competitive before and got a huge push
- Koptas, Kanz and Dreads went down my non-trivial amounts
- KFF Mek and Biker Boss were saved from legends
- Nob bikers, burnas and blitza bommer fall into the "they tried" category - drops that won't make those units great, but a buff is a buff. Also note that almost all units from the red section in the first post have been addressed.
- Gretchin stayed 3 pts

Often requested things that we didn't get
- Cheaper warbikers
- Cheaper battlewagons and trukks
- Cheaper rokkits, big shootas and PKs
- A useful stompa

If you are seriously disappointed by this, I suggest dropping WH40k ASAP - there will never be a GW release that will not disappoint you, save yourself the trouble.

I agree with Jid. And the things that DID drop will certainly change up how we can build lists. I expect we'll see a lot more Buggies and Koptas being fielded. Might even see folks running Dreadz instead of a Gork (since you can field 3 of them, kitted out well, for the same price). Might even see Kanz, but that's probably not gonna happen.

In short, while our competitive lists will still have a core of Gretchin, SSAG, and Smashas, the point drops we got will likely see us fielding these cheaper options alongside them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, to be fair, it'll take more than a point drop to fix the Stompa. I think the easiest (and Orkiest) fix would be to just remove the Wound brackets from it. Fits with the lore (Waagh keeps it running at peak efficiency until it's literally scrap), and doesn't press on any "Orkz shouldn't have good Saves" buttons.

tbh i more want the stompa to be useful because of Geargutz' Stompa model (3D print file) looks rightfully menacing, unlike the actual stompa. Even if the stompa was viable i dont think i'd use it that much mostly because of how large the dang thing is, and even at what i feel it should be priced its gonna remove a huge chunk of my army to be fielded.

Buggies dropping that much is ridiculous, atleast the main 3 we already were somewhat using. I was already considering using the KBB in almost every list if it dropped ~10pts because your Speed Freak list made me compare it to the Ironstriders from Admech and...yeah...it was about right just ever so slightly too pricy. Bam, 80pts now, so for 20pts from an Autocannon Ironstrider you get +2 shots (offset by BS), AP2 instead of AP1, slightly less range (not an issue on a fast platform), +2 wounds, and short-range deterrent weapons.
That legitimately feels perfect. And thats something i never truly believe when comparing orks to nonorks lol.

Definitely not perfect. MANz and Nobs probably needed some love too. Wartrike is woefully overpriced. But overall this was a good change. It’s unlikely we’d get everything.

Based on what Xenos have been getting, PA will be nothing but disappointment. Space Wolves will get some hot gak, though.

Hey again, while I work out the bits and bobs of the Orky glory I wanted to ask if Meganobz are considered good, alright or terrible?

Also, are Kanz worth taking over them? Or even at all? Their 5+ to hit looks a little dicey.

Cheers

HQs didnt get touched at all, which i find weird.
Wartrike is the one buggy that DID sell thanks to its aura so they probably saw that and assumed it was fine.
Not even the SAG changed, and i think a lot of us were expecting it to skyrocket thanks to the SSAG.

Which on one hand is good, SAG didnt change so no worries there, but also means bosses still blow

edit: @Tiberius501 - MANz are fine if you use them properly. Theyre mostly great for objective camping since most things sitting on an objective cant deal with 3-4 MANz, and if theyre in cover theyre a pain in the butt to get rid of via any shooting (if even visible).
They are more of a bully in this edition than ever before. They used to shred vehicles without even trying, but now they barely hurt them unless massed to ridiculous levels.
There are numerous competitive lists using big squads of them tellyporting in though so they can be used as something other than objective campers, but i suspect they need to be very picky on targets.
Kanz suck, dont bother. I only use mine because theyre awesome looking and painted, but i feel like im wasting my time every time i field them these days so i dont do it that often

And i agree, Space Wolves need some love. They were a threat for....a month? and have been a joke every other incarnation. There are 2 wolf players in my area that refuse to bring that army out anymore, and only still have it because it does not sell at all. I hate seeing that, even if it is imperial scum, and want them to get some good buffs OUTSIDE of the stupid wolfriders (last thing we need is a repeat of Nobbikers in 5th/6th where the entire codex kinda sucks but they were so ridiculous they carried the entire army based on how lucky their saves were)

Honestly they need it more than we do

@Vineheart01, That’s good to know, I’ll probably chuck some Meganobz in my lists then to try out as they’re beast looking. And I’ll stay clear of Kanz haha.

Personally, for Orks and given that we haven't had our PA rules released yet, I think we largely got a win overall. Still sucks that wargear costs were left unaddressed, but compared to what Nids got recently from PA and CA overall, I would say we got off pretty well.

I think MANz are on the cusp of being an A tier unit, they are probably B+/ A- right now. They can take a punch, have decent chaff shooting, and 30-40 klaw attacks (add warpath) is downright scary. Park em in cover for a 1+ armour save and charge anything crazy enough to get close.

If they dropped something like 5 points, I think they'd be crazy good.

Our HQs needed some love, too. At least SAGs stayed the same awesome price. Hopefully PA will introduce new wargear / rules for our stuff. Cybork body ALONE would be massive for Warbosses... and let us take twin killsaws! That might actually be a halfway decent HQ. 5 Attacks, 3+ to hit, ap-4, wounding on 3's or 2's for 90'ish points ain't bad, especially if they got a 5+++

tulun wrote:
I think MANz are on the cusp of being an A tier unit, they are probably B+/ A- right now. They can take a punch, have decent chaff shooting, and 30-40 klaw attacks (add warpath) is downright scary. Park em in cover for a 1+ armour save and charge anything crazy enough to get close.

If they dropped something like 5 points, I think they'd be crazy good.

Our HQs needed some love, too. At least SAGs stayed the same awesome price. Hopefully PA will introduce new wargear / rules for our stuff. Cybork body ALONE would be massive for Warbosses... and let us take twin killsaws! That might actually be a halfway decent HQ. 5 Attacks, 3+ to hit, ap-4, wounding on 3's or 2's for 90'ish points ain't bad, especially if they got a 5++.

Yeah, even if its a stratagem similar to the Chapter Master one that SM get, if there was a way to buff the Warboss to either be more killy or resilient (perhaps as a side effect of Ghaz being the next Beast) I would be 100% behind that. Having a different or better aura than what we currently get from a Warboss would be another interesting way of making them relevant to our army besides being a relic caddy.

I'm still unsure where you're getting "decent chaff shooting" from. Even with Kustom Shootas, they're taking out less than 1 Guardsman per model (like 0.88 or something), so even a 10 MAN unit is only gonna pop 8 of them (like 40 pts)And that's abysmal for 350 pts. The Klaws would be scarier if A) Invuln Saves weren't really common with the armies that field vehicles and B) if it wasn't dealing D3 damage. 10 MANz against a T6, 3+, 5++ vehicle are gonna deal, on average (with Warpath) 17.7 Wounds. This isn't bad, but you gotta get all 10 into CC (pretty difficult with their large bases and slow speed). I'm with Vineheart that their primary role should be holding and contesting Objectives (particularly those in cover), but they can offer a secondary role of taking out vehicles or (possibly) Elites, if you see an opportunity.

 flandarz wrote:
I'm still unsure where you're getting "decent chaff shooting" from. Even with Kustom Shootas, they're taking out less than 1 Guardsman per model (like 0.88 or something), so even a 10 MAN unit is only gonna pop 8 of them (like 40 pts)And that's abysmal for 350 pts. The Klaws would be scarier if A) Invuln Saves weren't really common with the armies that field vehicles and B) if it wasn't dealing D3 damage. 10 MANz against a T6, 3+, 5++ vehicle are gonna deal, on average (with Warpath) 17.7 Wounds. This isn't bad, but you gotta get all 10 into CC (pretty difficult with their large bases and slow speed). I'm with Vineheart that their primary role should be holding and contesting Objectives (particularly those in cover), but they can offer a secondary role of taking out vehicles or (possibly) Elites, if you see an opportunity.

It's the equivalent of 20 shoota boyz in output, but likely stay around many turns instead of going into the meat grinder. Hence, decent, but not good or great. I think camping something in cover, I'm just glad they have a gun at all. See: Kommandos. Clearing screens and being annoying is a good thing.

But yes, I agree. They aren't A tier, and could use a point drop, but i think they are close. Your example is also slightly disingenuous. They are wounding T8 on a 3+ too, so it scales up to the same wounds there. With AP-3, it's also hitting their invul save no matter what (2+ becomes a 5+ armour save). They can shred a Knight pretty hard, and probably kill it if it's taken a round of shooting.

20 Shoota Boyz also cost 210 pts less than 10 MANz. So, it'd be more accurate to compare them to 50 Shoota Boyz, which would take out, roughly, 20 Guardsmen, a significant improvement for the same price. They'd also have more Wounds, and more Attacks at that size, as well as being more "durable" against the relative abundance of multi-damage weapons.

And even then, Shoota Boyz aren't even that "great" at chaff clearing (possibly decent if you run them as Bad Moonz). We have far better chaff clearing options. MANz are only "decent" at chaff clearing if you compare them to units that prefer to shoot vehicles.

I concede that having a gun is far better than not having one, but I'm also gonna be realistic and say those guns probably ain't gonna do a whole lot for ya over the course of the game. For example, even if those MANz last through all 5 turns, you're only putting down 44 Guardsmen with your Kustom Shootas. That's, what, 220 pts? You never even managed to make back your unit cost.

To be fair, if someone has their Knight wide open and able to be charged (and surrounded) by all 10 MANz, then they definitely deserve to take that beating. It also bears mentioning that Knights also have the tools to pick apart MANz with relative ease.

I was pretty clear that their ability to deal damage to vehicles in CC was good. The issues I see are getting them there (I believe you still only got around a 60-70% chance to make a charge out of Da Jump, even with Evil Sunz and 'Ere We Go), and getting all 10 into CC range. Less of a problem with the latter against large vehicles, or ones you've flanked, but still something I'd rather keep in my pocket for the opportune time than bank on when building my strategy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically, what I'm saying is: a MAN unit's primary goal and responsibility should be holding Objectives for you. Anything else you have them do should come secondary to that role.

 flandarz wrote:
20 Shoota Boyz also cost 210 pts less than 10 MANz. So, it'd be more accurate to compare them to 50 Shoota Boyz, which would take out, roughly, 20 Guardsmen, a significant improvement for the same price. They'd also have more Wounds, and more Attacks at that size, as well as being more "durable" against the relative abundance of multi-damage weapons.

And even then, Shoota Boyz aren't even that "great" at chaff clearing (possibly decent if you run them as Bad Moonz). We have far better chaff clearing options. MANz are only "decent" at chaff clearing if you compare them to units that prefer to shoot vehicles.

I concede that having a gun is far better than not having one, but I'm also gonna be realistic and say those guns probably ain't gonna do a whole lot for ya over the course of the game. For example, even if those MANz last through all 5 turns, you're only putting down 44 Guardsmen with your Kustom Shootas. That's, what, 220 pts? You never even managed to make back your unit cost.

To be fair, if someone has their Knight wide open and able to be charged (and surrounded) by all 10 MANz, then they definitely deserve to take that beating. It also bears mentioning that Knights also have the tools to pick apart MANz with relative ease.

I was pretty clear that their ability to deal damage to vehicles in CC was good. The issues I see are getting them there (I believe you still only got around a 60-70% chance to make a charge out of Da Jump, even with Evil Sunz and 'Ere We Go), and getting all 10 into CC range. Less of a problem with the latter against large vehicles, or ones you've flanked, but still something I'd rather keep in my pocket for the opportune time than bank on when building my strategy.

I believe the stats for 9" charge with 'Ere we go is actually in the 80-85% range -- Ere we go is really good with that +1 charge bonus. But I would agree, you want to use them opportunistically for a charge like that, instead of a Da Jump suicide run ala Boyz.. They are great at holding sections of the board.

I think we basically agree, though. If I can clear 220 points of guard *while* camping an objective for 5 turns, I think that's a huge win -- grots never make back their points, but provide us value in ways other than slaughter. We go for VPs, not necessarily wipe outs. TBH, if they are suitably distracting while they leave my Mek Gunz, Buggies, Dreads alone, they've probably paid for themselves.

yeah im not really sure why people are so afraid of 9" charges with orks.
I rarely fail them.

You sure? I feel like a 100% increase in chance is pretty high (the chance of rolling an 8+ on 2d6 is about 41%). But, to be fair, I finished high school and decided that was enough math for me, so I'll defer to you in this regard.

Everything else I agree with.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah im not really sure why people are so afraid of 9" charges with orks.
I rarely fail them.

If you're NOT evil suns, ignoring for a second the individual die rolls we can do instead of both, the chance of failing the 9" is like 52% (1 - .72 * .72). Coin flip. With the individual die roll, this bumps it up a bit I think around 10%?, but even with that, super risky.

With needing only an 8, it becomes (1 - .58 * .58,) which is 67% chance of success. With individual die rolls, it becomes in the 80 range I think.

Evil suns is overwhelmingly the best slogging infantry option by miles, in a team that's supposed to want to be in vehicles. Way to go GW.

flandarz wrote:
You sure? I feel like a 100% increase in chance is pretty high (the chance of rolling an 8+ on 2d6 is about 41%). But, to be fair, I finished high school and decided that was enough math for me, so I'll defer to you in this regard.

Everything else I agree with.

I'm *fairly* certain. Someone has cranked out the math. The issue it gets a bit harder because we can keep partial results (You always keep a 4+ on the ES evil suns roll, because 50% > 41.67%).

Calculating the chance of something *not* happening compared to at least one thing happening, or exactly 1 (say, on 4 dice, what's the probability of getting at least 2 hits on a BS4) is really simple, which I always use a general rule of thumb. So, what's the chance of a 5+ re-roll to hit? Well the chance of both die rolling below a 5+ is 2/3 * 2/3, so 4/9. Because probability has to add up to 1, chance of hitting on at least one of the rolls is therefore 5/9.

http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/2_dice_rolls.htm#.XeViE-hKhQA

My luck in that regard is broken.
Rolling 7" with 3d6? About 25% success chance.
11" charge with a bonebreaka that doesn't have 'ere we go? 90% success chance!

It's almost as if the more unlikely a charge is, the more likely I am to succeed with it.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Orks%288E%29#Clan_Kulturs

This is the only source I found that takes into account the one or both from 'ere we go and Evil Sunz. 72.45%, so roughly 1 in 4 Charges should fail (on average).

Thats just the 40k factor in dice rolling.

I need to pass 6 of these 7 saves to survive and i only have a 5+? passes them all
4 saves and i have a 2+? fails twice.....

I swear 2+ results are cursed for me. I fail the 2+ mortal wound test on Ramming Speed more often than im willing to admit.

That happens to me all the time with the SSAG. Up against a vehicle heavy list? Every Strength roll will be under 5, and shots will be 6 or less. Up against an infantry heavy list? 12 shots with 11 Strength.

 flandarz wrote:
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Orks%288E%29#Clan_Kulturs

This is the only source I found that takes into account the one or both from 'ere we go and Evil Sunz. 72.45%, so roughly 1 in 4 Charges should fail (on average).

On a gut check, that seems too low to me. We know the result re rolling both is 66.36% chance ( 1 - .58 squared).
On 4+ on one die, second roll is 50/50. 5+, 67%. 6, 83.33%.

Seems odd that only adds about 6%. But I can’t be bothered to do the exact math.

Manz are fine. They hit hard in cc and what is pretty important - it' s hard to kill them.

I use 2 units of 4-5 in tellyporta comming down turn 2 or 3. Somewhere close to bikerboss.

Plus they are very nice model. But hard to paint.

Well, let's see... the chances of rolling 2 through 7 (only counting double 1s through double 3s, when you'd reroll both) is 10 in 36 and the chances of rolling a 4+ on one, but a 3- on the other is 6 in 36. About a 30% chance to reroll both and a 16.7% chance to only reroll one. The chances to get the same or worse result after either is still 10 in 36 for both and 3 in 6 for just one. and . Just off high school head math, that's about a 10% chance to fail if you choose to reroll both and a 8.3% chance to fail if you only choose to reroll 1.

That's about as far as my math skills will take me. Dunno if you can handle the rest or not.

I previously mentioned the SSAG, and thought this was relevant: the Tau player I regular go up against was running 2 Riptides and I spent 4 turns doing absolutely nothing to them with the SSAG (either I'd roll low shots, I'd fail to Hit or Wound, or he'd pass his Invulns, or some combination of the above). On T5, I decide to target something else cuz I was just accustomed to doing jack diddly to them, so I went after some Fire Warriors. That's when suddenly my luck turned around and I wiped out a whole 5 FWs with my anti-tank SSAG. That was a disheartening battle.

tulun wrote:
I believe the stats for 9" charge with 'Ere we go is actually in the 80-85% range -- Ere we go is really good with that +1 charge bonus. But I would agree, you want to use them opportunistically for a charge like that, instead of a Da Jump suicide run ala Boyz.. They are great at holding sections of the board.

I think we basically agree, though. If I can clear 220 points of guard *while* camping an objective for 5 turns, I think that's a huge win -- grots never make back their points, but provide us value in ways other than slaughter. We go for VPs, not necessarily wipe outs. TBH, if they are suitably distracting while they leave my Mek Gunz, Buggies, Dreads alone, they've probably paid for themselves.

9" charge with 'ere we go 58%. 8" with 'ere we go 78%.

Ok. Still roughly a 1 in 4 chance to fail.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Agreed on all points. We might get a bone thrown to us but it'll be Vigilus level stuff, perhaps one decent relic from the book and that's it.

It is a shame on warbikes too, what a waste of a CA.

It's safe to assume that we will get no more than the following
- 6 Warlord Traits
- 6 Relics
- 6 Stratagems
- Build your own Waaagh!

We might get a new ork model (KFF mek/Thrakka), but we also might not, considering that there is already a rumor for primaris Logar and currently the expected amount is 1 model per PA.
If we are lucky, they'll throw in a psychic discipline, but I doubt that.

I reserve the right to ridicule anyone expecting more.

I agree, but the thing we haven't thought of is that we might get one or more stupid OP warlord traits that make other units better. What if we got a WL trait that said KillaKanz gain +1 armor, or Warbikes can always shoot twice or etc etc. So there is still a chance that our sub par units could be addressed and given a buff. Granted, that shows more forethought than I expect of GW.

 Jidmah wrote:

IMO a lot of people here are complaining that Santa Da Red Gobbo only brought them 75% of their wish list instead of 100%.
- All buggies went down by more than most of us dared to dream - common opinion was that they were 10-15% overpriced, they wend down by 15-30%
- Flash gits were borderline competitive before and got a huge push
- Koptas, Kanz and Dreads went down my non-trivial amounts
- KFF Mek and Biker Boss were saved from legends
- Nob bikers, burnas and blitza bommer fall into the "they tried" category - drops that won't make those units great, but a buff is a buff. Also note that almost all units from the red section in the first post have been addressed.
- Gretchin stayed 3 pts

Often requested things that we didn't get
- Cheaper warbikers
- Cheaper battlewagons and trukks
- Cheaper rokkits, big shootas and PKs
- A useful stompa

If you are seriously disappointed by this, I suggest dropping WH40k ASAP - there will never be a GW release that will not disappoint you, save yourself the trouble.

I would say that a lot of the buggies were 30% over priced for what they did with some like the Scrapjet being about 15-20% over priced for what they did, in the case of the scrapjet this could have been alleviated by simply buffing Big Shootas to be worth taking, but instead we got a 10pt drop which, while nice, doesn't address the fact that its still a very....hazard choice shall we say? Its rather flimsy, its best weapon is a 2D3 Rokkit launcha and a wing missile which hits vehicles on a 4+. Honestly I think with the scrapjet GW correctly priced the Rokkitz while over charging for the Big Shootas. If the Big shootas were 2pts each the vehicle would cost 12pts less on top of the 10pt price reduction it got and I think it would be a good choice to take in a FA slot.

I think you are spot on with Flash Gitz, which sucks because I don't own any and don't want to own any lol.

I will disagree with you on the Kanz and Dreadz. Kanz are still hot garbage and dreadz are still over priced for what they can do. Compare a SM Dreadnought with a standard load out to a Dread with 2 saws and 2 klaws. Basically the same price, the SM Dread has a ranged weapon which can inflict some decent damage and has a good BS to use it.The Ork dread does not. In CC The Ork and SM hit on 3s, but here is the difference, the SM is S12 on all its attacks with -3 AP and 3 damage flat, it has 4 attacks (5 on the 1st turn), the Ork dread has 4 S10 attacks with -3 AP and 3 damage flat and 2 attacks at S9 with -2AP and 2 damage flat. And here is the kicker, how often do you see SM players taking normal dreadnoughts to tournaments? So in reality the Ork Dread is still crap.

The only other thing I will disagree with you on is the Burna's which you placed in the "They tried" catagory, i know its semantics but I refuse to give them even that level of respect. Realistically the only way I would EVER take Burnas is if they were literally cheaper then boyz. They are basically as good as boyz in every category but they aren't troops. So unless they got dirt cheap or received a MASSIVE buff I will not take them ever, even in friendly games.

I don't think dreads are crap simply of the point that they can deep strike as three.
Deffskull double kmb + 2 klaws
And ere we go and ramming speed awaible

2 kmb as deffskullz are 1 hit average and reroll wound and dmg
And in meele 4 attacks with rerolls isn't to bad at all with 7,22 dmg average VS a leman russ chassi.
Overall it means after deep strike ONE dread kill a 12 wounds t8 Amor 3 chassi if the charge goes off.
And you have three of them so not that bad

I like to run my Deathskullz Dreadz with 1 Klaw, 2 Sawz, and 1 KMB. That gives it a hard-hitting ranged weapon, and it still gets 5 attacks in CC, for a fair price tag.

You mentioned the weapon load-out Semper, but how do SM Dreads and Ork Dreadz measure up in their statblock? That could make them more even, if the Dread is tougher. Also, the difference. Between S12 and S10 is really only gonna matter against T6 targets (T9 will matter against T5, but those are fairly rare from what I've seen).