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 Vineheart01 wrote:
If that Blood Axe trait was exempt from the more than 1 cp per round rule (which it SHOULD BE since its less likely to get multiples than the Eldar ones that are allowed) i'd do that in a heartbeat.
But since we often dump 6-8 Cp in a turn....yeah you arent gonna get more than 2 cp max because by turn3 you are either out or are saving 1 for a reroll somewhere.

Mixed detachment still makes sense if you had double-weirdboys though. The only kultures that they benefit from wont really help them all that much anyway, might as well allow those grots to protect the flashgitz or whoever you wanted them for. SAG loses way too much not having Big Killa Boss and/or deathskullz/badmoonz traits.

Yup, totally reasonable.

I think the Bad Moons SAG is really overblown. Every 6 shots, you expect to see one roll of 1. Access to the bad moons shoot twice on a normal SAG is a bit meh, too. Desperate use of 2 CP. Deathskulls really is just... so much better. Rerolling damage is clutch. But, really, the SSAG is the going to carry you anyway, as it's 2-4x more output than the normal SAG, which should 100% always be a deathskull if you are optimizing.

But yeah, exactly right with weirdboys. You can slot them wherever and it doesn't really matter much. KFF Mek is similar too -- Evil suns is nice of course for keeping up with running up troops, or maybe the 6+ invul save from DS, but you could probably make do with whatever clan trait, or none, really.

tulun wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Your sag takes bit of a hit in efficiency though

I’d probably take that trade off. Squeezing another couple of CP out might be nice in the new CA missions.

Yeah but it's not cp or efficiency. You aren't trading efficiency to cp but mixed klans. Is that worth it is the q you need to decide


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tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
If that Blood Axe trait was exempt from the more than 1 cp per round rule (which it SHOULD BE since its less likely to get multiples than the Eldar ones that are allowed) i'd do that in a heartbeat.
But since we often dump 6-8 Cp in a turn....yeah you arent gonna get more than 2 cp max because by turn3 you are either out or are saving 1 for a reroll somewhere.

Mixed detachment still makes sense if you had double-weirdboys though. The only kultures that they benefit from wont really help them all that much anyway, might as well allow those grots to protect the flashgitz or whoever you wanted them for. SAG loses way too much not having Big Killa Boss and/or deathskullz/badmoonz traits.

Yup, totally reasonable.

I think the Bad Moons SAG is really overblown. Every 6 shots, you expect to see one roll of 1. Access to the bad moons shoot twice on a normal SAG is a bit meh, too. Desperate use of 2 CP. Deathskulls really is just... so much better. Rerolling damage is clutch. But, really, the SSAG is the going to carry you anyway, as it's 2-4x more output than the normal SAG, which should 100% always be a deathskull if you are optimizing.

But yeah, exactly right with weirdboys. You can slot them wherever and it doesn't really matter much. KFF Mek is similar too -- Evil suns is nice of course for keeping up with running up troops, or maybe the 6+ invul save from DS, but you could probably make do with whatever clan trait, or none, really.

With sag dethskull is obvious.

With ssag dethskull, badmoon and freeboota are about equal so rest of army decides

Deathskullz is technically superior for the SSAG, mostly because of the reroll damage die making it much less likely to do very low damage with what does hit.
But BadMoonz/Freeboota works well enough to justify not having a special Deathskullz detachment if you cant/dont want to swing one (like me). My SSAG when i run Bad Moonz is a little swingy but it works, but as Deathskullz it usually reliably owns things. Because of that damage reroll, not the hits, i generally get the same-ish number of hits/wounds between the two clans.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Deathskullz is technically superior for the SSAG, mostly because of the reroll damage die making it much less likely to do very low damage with what does hit.
But BadMoonz/Freeboota works well enough to justify not having a special Deathskullz detachment if you cant/dont want to swing one (like me). My SSAG when i run Bad Moonz is a little swingy but it works, but as Deathskullz it usually reliably owns things. Because of that damage reroll, not the hits, i generally get the same-ish number of hits/wounds between the two clans.

You must roll more ones than I do I think you need to roll at least 3 ones to hit for it to be close.

With shoot twice, I think that DS has a decent efficiency edge with that damage reroll, as it applies to both rounds of shooting. But overall, if you aren’t getting much else out of death skull, that’s fair. I think the normal SAG really suffers, though, which is why I usually default to a DS battalion

tulun wrote:
Basically, that 1-2 extra CP might be another 3-6 VPs with the right play and a little luck.

You pay 1 CP to field it though, which means it is 0-1 in, which can turn into -1 with a bit of bad luck of if a bunch of eliminators get involved.

tulun wrote:
It's more so just an eye opening idea -- certain useful things that seem to be clan locked you can potentially access cheaply if you are willing to mix clans in a detachment, instead of taking something like a supreme detachment.

I toyed with that idea a bit, but it's rarely worth losing out on a clan culture. In maelstrom, you need three units of gretchin to camp objectives anyways, so not using them as grot shields is pretty much irrelevant. So in your example, I would just make the entire detachment blood axes.

Deathskull is faaaaaar better than any other klan for SSAG in terms of probability of success

I doubt anyone has properly calculated that, as our standard mathhammer averages are pretty much worthless on something with a high spread as the SSAG.

Yeah the SSAG mathhammer is unreliable since its the epitome of randomness.

My comments are from me running mono badmoonz and sometimes running mono deathskullz.
I generally get 3-6 hits with it, depending more on how many shots i got not which kulture i used.
Usually 1 fails to wound, deathskullz tends to offset that of course
Damage almost ALWAYS includes a 1-2 somewhere, which deathskullz rerolls and is the ultimate reason i say deathskullz are better because almost every time it fires the few wounds that get through are heavy hits, while for badmoonz i tend to roll crap and have no way to reroll it outside CP reroll. I have routinely caused 16+ damage with Deathskullz in one shot, while Badmoonz ive rarely ever breached 12.

And yes, i roll 1s like a mofo. Dunno how many times i rolled 10 shots with my SSAG and got 4-5 1s out of it. Dice being dice ftw. (Need a 6 to live? sure you'll pass it most of the time. Need a 2? Fail it 90% of the time)

You don't need a master degree in maths for a tree diagram for bad moons, probability is always unreliable cuz it tends to infinity, but it makes an aproximation

On the other hand, without talking about calculations (it would be so long because deathskull rolls are dependant), the average numer of shoots for SSAG is 7, it means there will be 1.16 dices with a 1, with deathskulls you can reroll that dice in hits and then you have another rerroll for wounds and another one for dmg.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
Basically, that 1-2 extra CP might be another 3-6 VPs with the right play and a little luck.

You pay 1 CP to field it though, which means it is 0-1 in, which can turn into -1 with a bit of bad luck of if a bunch of eliminators get involved.

tulun wrote:
It's more so just an eye opening idea -- certain useful things that seem to be clan locked you can potentially access cheaply if you are willing to mix clans in a detachment, instead of taking something like a supreme detachment.

I toyed with that idea a bit, but it's rarely worth losing out on a clan culture. In maelstrom, you need three units of gretchin to camp objectives anyways, so not using them as grot shields is pretty much irrelevant. So in your example, I would just make the entire detachment blood axes.

True. It's something of a gamble, and is definitely list dependent. When I think about building a 2000 point list, I usually budget for 16 CP (-1 CP for Dread Waaagh, -1 CP for 2 relics).

I could keep the 1 extra CP for 17, but I think it's pretty likely I'll at least make it back if I can keep the character alive, and 2 CP back (up to 18), is also probably not too unlikely. If I get really lucky, I'll get way more. It's risky, but I could see giving it a go in some lists, especially in Maelstrom where I now have to squeeze in as much extra CP as I can for the Maelstrom deck strats.

Regarding the SAG: I think without getting too much in the complex math, it's clear DS will trump BM on average. (Guaranteed 1 hit, 1 wound, and re-roll damage vs just re-rolls to 1s). It's uncontroversial.

The SSAG DS is still probably clearly the winner here, too. Variable damage is probably equivalent to a couple of bonus rolls. If you only roll a 1 on your damage die, the SSAG basically fizzles on targets it wants to hit.. and the likelihood of getting a 1 is much, much less on deathskulls.

The amount of net hits and wounds you're getting too on 2d6 shots is probably close or maybe even in DS favour on average. With 7 shots, the chance of not seeing at least one 1 is 82%. You always get to re-roll 1 hit on DS.

BMs probably gets closer to overtaking once your # of shots is 18+.

That being said, army composition can trump making your SSAG more efficient.

It's more than just a bit because of wound reroll.
In math you need 3-4 ones rerolling to come to deffskullz dmg.
An easy example.

Ssag mek vs leman russ double shooting ( no more dakka but dakka dakka dakka)
Say with big killa boss str 7 shots 7

So bad moonz = 14 shots +2,33 from dakka dakka dakka ( reroll able) = 6,33 hits average ( with everything inside)
Wounding on 4+ = 3,1xx wounds
Dmg = 11 dmg average.

Deffkulz double shooting means 2 hot two wound two dmg rerolls
= 6,2 hits average but than the Wounding comes = 4,1 wounds average because of rerolls.
Than two dmg rerolls 2 2x4,5 and 2,1x 3,5 = more than 16 dmg.
= about 42% more dmg output


And if you shoot just one time
With bad moonz 5,55 dmg
Deffkulz 8,2 dmg.

Really hoping that Saga of The Beast brings some good relics. Its a touch boring that the SSAG and Killa Klaw are the only stand outs.

cody.d. wrote:
Really hoping that Saga of The Beast brings some good relics. Its a touch boring that the SSAG and Killa Klaw are the only stand outs.

Yeah, definitely makes our lists very cookie cutter, which sucks since I WANT to bring other stuff, but the impact the other relics have is so marginal you're actively hurting your list by not taking the KK or the SSAG. At the very least new Klan specific relics and some of the stuff from previous supplements in the last edition, like the Mega Kustom Force Field.

I'd love a relic akin to what the Marines got now where they can make a captain have like ~12 attacks.

Make a boss actually WANT to follow his boyz, rather than overkill the majority of things he hits. Enough strength and AP to be a threat to any non-vehicle, still capable of hurting a vehicle in a pinch.

I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.

If you think they a warboss have one attack more than a noob or the same as a intercessor sergeant with chainsword is gucling depressing


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Sorry I meant a fething 11 points scout sergeant with combat Blade, which, incidentally have the same save .

I'm quite intrigued with playing deathskulls, do you guys still include a BM with kff? Or is it better to slap a painboy/mad dok in there?

A regular captain only has 4 base attacks too.

It’s just their aura is basically infinitely better, and they can take a billion upgrades.

And it doesn’t even cost much to do so... the warboss can’t even take a kill saw.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I'd love a relic akin to what the Marines got now where they can make a captain have like ~12 attacks.

Make a boss actually WANT to follow his boyz, rather than overkill the majority of things he hits. Enough strength and AP to be a threat to any non-vehicle, still capable of hurting a vehicle in a pinch.

Yeah, a horde-mower boss to contrast against the KK boss taking out the big multi-wound models. I would love to see a Big Choppa variant of the Teeth of Terra. Only problem is he lacks the jump pack options of most jump captains, but I guess the Bike will do. I could also see a relic for INFANTRY only that effectively gives a 2+ save and something defensive on top (unmodded 6's to save cause mortal wounds on the inflicted the wound?) as a way to provide a potential stopgap for Mega Armour Warbosses until they finally release an official model for it. Also, it shocks me that they haven't made a gitfinda or personal tellyporta relic yet.

Gruxz wrote:
I'm quite intrigued with playing deathskulls, do you guys still include a BM with kff? Or is it better to slap a painboy/mad dok in there?

Largely depends on the list. Deathskulls work very well with a mechanized list, as single models often benefit strongly from their clan culture. But a mechanized list doesn't necessarily need a big mek KFF.

Mad Dok is definitely worth it, imo, if you have enough infantry to make it worth it. He's much harder to kill (4+ save vs 6+, 5+++ FNP), and if you decide to mix clan detachments, his aura works on any clan. He also hits on 3's with his klaw instead of 4's, and it's only 21 more points.

If you feel you have the right units that needs the 5++, take a KFF.

tulun wrote:
A regular captain only has 4 base attacks too.

It’s just their aura is basically infinitely better, and they can take a billion upgrades.

And it doesn’t even cost much to do so... the warboss can’t even take a kill saw.

That's what irks me, is that fluffwise the Warboss gets the lion's share of the loot and the best gear and he can't even have some of the basic wargear of Nobz. He can't even upgrade his kustom shoota to a snazzgun for Gork's sake!

 Grimskul wrote:

tulun wrote:
A regular captain only has 4 base attacks too.

It’s just their aura is basically infinitely better, and they can take a billion upgrades.

And it doesn’t even cost much to do so... the warboss can’t even take a kill saw.

That's what irks me, is that fluffwise the Warboss gets the lion's share of the loot and the best gear and he can't even have some of the basic wargear of Nobz. He can't even upgrade his kustom shoota to a snazzgun for Gork's sake!

Absolutely. I honest to god hope they release a couple new kits for us in PA -- it would be sick to have a new Warboss with wargear options, and a Weirdboy that could literally take any wargear.

Imagine if a warboss could take 2 kill saws, even. It would be 88 points for the walking one, and... 118 I think for the bike.

5 attacks. hitting on 3s, flat 2 damage, ap-4, with 2 attack squig attacks.
Amazing? no. But that's ALREADY a huge upgrade over the klaw boss. d3 damage sucks.

Regarding relics: I think we have a few good ones, but when it'll cost you 3 CP to take your 3rd one, there's not really much point. If I could take subsequent relics for 1 CP each, I might consider a couple.

Yeah thats the big reason they NEED to release a proppa Ork Warboss kit with all da fixin's

There should be absolutely nothing (except maybe a Deffgun) that a Boss shouldnt have access to.
Hell i should be allowed to bring a boss with dual Kustom Shootas and kitbash him to look like some wild-west gunslinger

Could be a cool idea to make a blunderbuss -- the Bad Moon relic is actually kind of fun.

They could even take some inspiration from DoW if they wanted Warboss specific gear to give him. Give him a Bang Bang Hamma, basically a souped up Big Choppa with +3S, AP-2 and 3 Damage. Add a Boss Klaw option which doesn't have the negative to hit penalty and does D6 damage. These would have the appropriate costs for him specifically, but to have gear that reflects that he's a cut above Nob weaponry would actually make taking multiple Warbosses palatable.

 flandarz wrote:
I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.

I'd say that would be a wonderful relic. Mek guns, kanz and grot tanks getting kulture would have some fun potential. Hell even regular grots could get some use.

cody.d. wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.

I'd say that would be a wonderful relic. Mek guns, kanz and grot tanks getting kulture would have some fun potential. Hell even regular grots could get some use.

I'd prefer Grots getting their own Kultur tbh, that stays and doesn't disrupt regular Klan kulturs in the same detachment. Not sure would it would be specifically, but getting something like an "opportunist" rule where they reroll one's to wound against an enemy unit that has suffered casualties or wounds this turn would be interesting, or if they got something that forced enemy non-FLY units to pass a roll off like wyches if they have a unit of 10 or more grots in combat with them, giving us some kind of incentive to take them as a horde to prevent enemies from running away from the rest of the Ork army from hitting home. Meanwhile, Kanz are specifically said to adopt the Klan tactics of the detachment they're in, even though they have the GRETCHIN keyword since being a Kan is about the closest they get to being an Ork.

Kebabcito wrote:
Deathskull is faaaaaar better than any other klan for SSAG in terms of probability of success

Not really. Vs 5++ knight about 1w more per average and 1% better odds of one shotting based on simulating about 100000 attacks.


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cody.d. wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.

I'd say that would be a wonderful relic. Mek guns, kanz and grot tanks getting kulture would have some fun potential. Hell even regular grots could get some use.

Of course this would require point increase to mek guns as minimum.

tneva82 wrote:

Kebabcito wrote:
Deathskull is faaaaaar better than any other klan for SSAG in terms of probability of success

Not really. Vs 5++ knight about 1w more per average and 1% better odds of one shotting based on simulating about 100000 attacks.

Photo of that? My results were very different

tneva82 wrote:

Kebabcito wrote:
Deathskull is faaaaaar better than any other klan for SSAG in terms of probability of success

Not really. Vs 5++ knight about 1w more per average and 1% better odds of one shotting based on simulating about 100000 attacks.


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cody.d. wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.

I'd say that would be a wonderful relic. Mek guns, kanz and grot tanks getting kulture would have some fun potential. Hell even regular grots could get some use.

Of course this would require point increase to mek guns as minimum.

Average bad moonz vs a 5++ knight = 3,70 dmg
Average deffskullz vs a knight 5++ = 6,315
( both with big killa boss ( str 7 and 7 shoots) dakka dakka dakka include
That's nearly double dude