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I think Orks can beat anyone in ETC / Maelstrom.

ITC overvalues the ability to slaughter your opponent, while maelstrom is more about board control.

Orks are incredible at board control, but aren't an army that tables you.

So, yeah, ITC is 100% the problem.

I dont think ive tabled anybody as orks in 8th except a mono-harlies player (why he insists on only running harlies is beyond me).
I simply throw enough dice to not care about his invuls and when its only 4++ to deal with its not really a threat.

But i have won tons of times via points, often when i was hiding behind a wall with my last grot unit so they couldnt table me. Slaughtering your opponent is nice but if you get 0 points doing it...who cares...especially if youre NOT preventing your opponent from scoring in the process.

That being said vanilla marines are still ridiculous. When an army has several units that other armies consider insanely good and valuable that the owning army refuses to touch because its "not as good" theres a problem...
I havnt seen a single marine player abuse droppods yet. BOTH my armies would KILL for that thing even w/o any stratagems to go with it.

Oh I tabled ultramarines three days ago and a lot of other army's

Honestly vs IH I just get raped. Vs RG and the others I have a small margin and is all about screening right and targeting the out of Whirlwind or TFC and eliminators. Than I can have a fair chance.
IH just obliterates us

TFC are the main issue i have.
A single, super cheap model can hide out of sight and delete dozens of orks/grots a turn. Cant do anything about it since orks have 0 LoS ignoring weapons and you generally have to beat half the marine army before you can even reach the TFC normally.
It always does around 3x its worth in damage. Always. Given marine reroll bs it simply does not whiff once in awhile.

Use wazboms you get a fair chance to get Los on thunder fire and good chance to kill 1-2 with one wazbom.

TFCs could go up 30% and I wager marines would still take 2-3. They are so beyond good. Orks pay 170 points for something even remotely similar and it’s probably still decent.

Indirect fire is just way too good. I have legends options in many games I play, and even big gun lobbas seem so insanely good to me I might throw some on the board ( they are now only 26 points ). I’m pretty sure 2-3 lobbas would frustrate a few of my opponents and they aren’t even close to the amazingness that is a TFC.

Hey folks, I don't play orks myself but was curious--does anyone ever use the Gargantuan Squiggoth? 35wounds, 4+ save and all 20 embatked models can fire out of it.

Plus when it charges in a 2+ it deals D6 mortals.

Any other army I'd be drooling at that for sub 500. But I assume there's a reason people don't use it.

Well first of all, he can't ignore heavy and fire.
Second it's a 4+ save he's mostly dead t1 t2
Third the model cost like a whole army
It's just not good

For the same points you get 64 wounds battle wagon
Where you can embark 80 people shooting out



For tfc well yes the indirect fire here is the big prob.
The output isn that great at all
Under kff it kills average 5 boys.
But indirect fire mostly you can't do something against and they shoot the whole game that's the problem.
I really had success with deffskullz wazboms against them.
One jet kill 1-2 of them and are 14x points so of he kill two you get you're points easy, and wazboms do well vs other marine things like centurions, aggressors, primaris

How do people feel about a full unit of Nobz with Big Choppas/Choppas vs a full unit of MANz with Claws/Shootas?

Both dropping in and charging. 190 points vs 350 points.
I can see benefits to both sides.
One is vastly cheaper and gets more attacks, also more consistent damage.
The other is much more durable, can shoot (badly), is stronger and can do potentially more damage.

MANZ seem to be held in higher regard but I just hate how vulnerable they are to thunderhammers, you pay all those points for durability but against some weapons they still die like nothing. A full unit of MANZ might be overkill I think since their footprint makes them tougher to tellyporta in

A buffed big choppa nob unit can do a lot of damage but unfortunately they're just bullies since they're rarely able to take a punch back. This makes interruptions/always fight first abilities real hampering against them IMO. And they die to a stiff breeze if they're caught in the open and pelted with ranged attacks.

I think ultimately both units are decent enough, but hampered by overcosted wargear in the case of MANZ or just being unable to stand up to the killiness of 8th edition in the case of nobs

 dan2026 wrote:
How do people feel about a full unit of Nobz with Big Choppas/Choppas vs a full unit of MANz with Claws/Shootas?

Both dropping in and charging. 190 points vs 350 points.
I can see benefits to both sides.
One is vastly cheaper and gets more attacks, also more consistent damage.
The other is much more durable, can shoot (badly), is stronger and can do potentially more damage.

Consistent against what? I assure you, MANz will wreck Nobz against a Knight.

They are fundamentally different units. MANz can used in a number of different ways, Nobz w/ BC/C are basically just a suicide missile into the enemy.

I think the problem with what your math here is a your not account for the delivery system. If your question was against marines, then you have to get around Auspex scan when they DS -> charge. If they slog, they will die before getting there. If you buy a transport, all of a sudden that point cost doesn't look so cheap (usually this is a battlewagon or bonebreaker, which is costing you 120+ points).

I think they can be good, but you might even take both in a list. They are definitely not substitutes.

Thanks for the advice.

I see lists seem to rate the Shokk Attack Gun/Super Shokka quite highly. But I have to wonder just how many shots a Big Mek is actually going to hit with his 5+/6+ if he moves BS.

Well average's can be calculated. And generally you don'' move sag. He's got range and it's just one model and you don't want to pay 2cp to hit on 5+ anyway. And esp with ssag yes if you move you use stratagem. But in general plan has to be deploy(preferably tall tower where only he and grot fits so he canjt be assaulted and has good los) and then shoot all game best target he can see. If you are moving requlary with shooty ork unit with heavy that has enough range to reach targets(and 60" means you would need to be shooting one corner to diagonically opposing corner for range to be issue) then either your deployments are flawed or terrain is so heavy sag migh' not be worth it to begin with. Or you have to accept 2cp tax to shoot

 Vineheart01 wrote:
TFC are the main issue i have.
A single, super cheap model can hide out of sight and delete dozens of orks/grots a turn. Cant do anything about it since orks have 0 LoS ignoring weapons and you generally have to beat half the marine army before you can even reach the TFC normally.
It always does around 3x its worth in damage. Always. Given marine reroll bs it simply does not whiff once in awhile.

The damn thing and the tech marine usually having a 1+ save doesn't help it either. Even if you manage to line up shots with rokkits or kmb-like weapons, they just bounce of the save.
Last game I just hurled 3 kill-krooza broadsides at them (and it worked!), but I seriously don't recommend doing that. It's simply not reliable enough to sink 9CP there.

Another thing - rokkit koptas in buggy lists worked really well for me, as no one ever seems to give them target priority of a buggy or warbikers. I kept unit of 5 near the warbiker mob and the warbossto mitigate morale, but it didn't really come up. They made their points back by just shooting interceptors, intercessors and infiltrators (that's GW naming at it's finest). Sadly my opponents didn't have any units with FLY, so long uncontrolled bursts never mattered. 4W is a really sweet spot to be, as neither d6 nor flat 3 damage can kill them without wasting damage. They also defended an objective for two entire game turns, if I had CP left (wasted them on broadsides), I might have been able to keep them alive longer with exhaust clouds. It's also worth noting that besides warbikers, there isn't really a good target for moar dakka in a buggy list, so I might keep experimenting with the 5 kopta units.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
TFC are the main issue i have.
A single, super cheap model can hide out of sight and delete dozens of orks/grots a turn. Cant do anything about it since orks have 0 LoS ignoring weapons and you generally have to beat half the marine army before you can even reach the TFC normally.
It always does around 3x its worth in damage. Always. Given marine reroll bs it simply does not whiff once in awhile.

The damn thing and the tech marine usually having a 1+ save doesn't help it either. Even if you manage to line up shots with rokkits or kmb-like weapons, they just bounce of the save.
Last game I just hurled 3 kill-krooza broadsides at them (and it worked!), but I seriously don't recommend doing that. It's simply not reliable enough to sink 9CP there.

Another thing - rokkit koptas in buggy lists worked really well for me, as no one ever seems to give them target priority of a buggy or warbikers. I kept unit of 5 near the warbiker mob and the warbossto mitigate morale, but it didn't really come up. They made their points back by just shooting interceptors, intercessors and infiltrators (that's GW naming at it's finest). Sadly my opponents didn't have any units with FLY, so long uncontrolled bursts never mattered. 4W is a really sweet spot to be, as neither d6 nor flat 3 damage can kill them without wasting damage. They also defended an objective for two entire game turns, if I had CP left (wasted them on broadsides), I might have been able to keep them alive longer with exhaust clouds. It's also worth noting that besides warbikers, there isn't really a good target for moar dakka in a buggy list, so I might keep experimenting with the 5 kopta units.

Once again, an aspect of koptas I hadn't realised - long uncontrolled bursts. I really need to be more meticulous in my reading of the 'dex!

Had another game vs my ultramarine friend over Christmas, 1500pts. I had 7 deff dreads and 5 kans, he had 2 repulsor tanks and a reasonable amount of infantry. I won by tabling.

Lessons learnt/confirmed:

1: Deathskulls deff-dreads with 2 KMB, when fielded in multiples, will rip through almost anything shy of a horde. They were consistently chipping away at infantry once the tanks were gone, and with the reroll damage, they almost always killed primaris with every hit.
2: Using ramming speed to kill their captain/chapter master/ reroll aura dude before everything else charges using the D3 mortal wounds (if they have 1-2 wounds left) would have saved a lot of hurt on a deff dread, rerolls on overwatch from umpteen lascannons, grenades, stubbers etc on a single repulsor nearly killed it outright.
3: Tellyporting 3 dreads with twin KMB is great. nearly killed a chapter master with shooting, then got the charge thanks to 'ere we go on all 3 (and ramming speed on one).
4: Meka-dreads are a bullet magnet! it soaked up the turn 1 firepower with 2 wounds to spare, but sadly never made it to combat.
5: Single smasha guns are actually better at dealing with heavy infantry than tanks - if you have other things to deal with tanks (like, say, 7 deff dreads and 14 KMB, 2 SAG (one souped-up) and 2 kans with rokkits). It deleted 3 aggressors in one shot (firing 2 shots, then converted a dakkax3!). rolling 2D6 vs T agains tT5 or less multi-wound models is nigh on guaranteed, and it does some good damage.
6: SSAG with big-things killer is muchly good at killing tanks. AP-5 ignores everything, and D6 damage just makes it. worst you're wounding on is 5+, even with S2, with a reroll throughout for deffskulls. It does the job really well. just watch out for snipers!
7: KFF is a must with so many vehicles. it saved a few high-damage wounds. keep him behind the dreads, and if they die, he's worthless anyway!


This is the second time I've run a dreadmob vs marines (first was space wolves) and both times it's tabled. It won't hold up vs a good anti-tank list, but it does well for damage redundancy, and it's fun! putting out 14 S8 AP-3 shots, 3D6 SAG shots, D3 Smasha shots and 2 rokkits and 6D3 grotzooka shots per turn is a pretty good firebase as well.

 some bloke wrote:
2: Using ramming speed to kill their captain/chapter master/ reroll aura dude before everything else charges using the D3 mortal wounds (if they have 1-2 wounds left) would have saved a lot of hurt on a deff dread, rerolls on overwatch from umpteen lascannons, grenades, stubbers etc on a single repulsor nearly killed it outright.

Good point though I find rarely I get chance to cause damage to buffer before generally wiping out nearby stuff anyway or the buffmaster dies in one go.

3: Tellyporting 3 dreads with twin KMB is great. nearly killed a chapter master with shooting, then got the charge thanks to 'ere we go on all 3 (and ramming speed on one).

I find with 3 that the last one often ends up 11-12" range if it is even within 12". Sometimes getting even 2 into charge range for something worthwhile is tricky. Often enough opponent blocks enough 3rd one is outside 12" and so can't charge ramming speed or not. Or it's marines and they have 12" no go areas. I might go for 3rd KMB on the 3rd one to make it more useful even on times it can't charge.

6: SSAG with big-things killer is muchly good at killing tanks. AP-5 ignores everything, and D6 damage just makes it. worst you're wounding on is 5+, even with S2, with a reroll throughout for deffskulls. It does the job really well. just watch out for snipers!

My fav warlord.

7: KFF is a must with so many vehicles. it saved a few high-damage wounds. keep him behind the dreads, and if they die, he's worthless anyway!

Alas marine eliminators can snipe him off. Especially if you can't move him behind terrain blocking terrain which can be tricky if dreads want to move.

Those dangerous characters/units with only a few wound left but are really tough (halves damage/good invuln etc) are also a prime target for the spiked ram buggies. Just keep throwing them in there until one procs and deletes them. It also works well against wulfen since they get to attack after they die in the fight phase but this happens in the charge phase so then they just die (I have greatly annoyed a SW player like that).

Obviously it doesn't come up all that often but it's really nice to have sources of MWs in the charge phase, meaning you might be able to delete a blocking unit and charge what you really want. It's a shame there isn't a more melee focused spiked ram buggy though, the megatrakk is alright assuming elites/AT but some sort of 6 attack hitting on 3s with S6 AP-1 would be fun IMO.

PiñaColada wrote:
Those dangerous characters/units with only a few wound left but are really tough (halves damage/good invuln etc) are also a prime target for the spiked ram buggies. Just keep throwing them in there until one procs and deletes them. It also works well against wulfen since they get to attack after they die in the fight phase but this happens in the charge phase so then they just die (I have greatly annoyed a SW player like that).

Obviously it doesn't come up all that often but it's really nice to have sources of MWs in the charge phase, meaning you might be able to delete a blocking unit and charge what you really want. It's a shame there isn't a more melee focused spiked ram buggy though, the megatrakk is alright assuming elites/AT but some sort of 6 attack hitting on 3s with S6 AP-1 would be fun IMO.

+1 on wanting an ork buggy with scythes, saws and all manner of death at the front, but no guns (or maybe a skorcha) for a wicked fast CC vehicle.

I've not struggled to get the 3 dreads in reasonable range, but usually my opponent forms a line and I can get in front of or behind it without too much blockery. I like that 2CP puts 3 horribly survivable units in my opponents face (or up their... ...backfield ). Using it on a single model gives them something to focus on, but 3 dreads/ That takes a lot of the heat off my advancing army!

I am contemplating making a list wit a view to merge 3 dreads and 30 boys in tellyportas, and then 2 mobs of 30 boys hiding to be jumped by a weirdboy. Turn 2 sees dreads appear behind (they fit in a smaller gap) and 60 boys appear in front. EGT could mean another 30 appear on a flank, if there's room. That's a lot of "then suddenly"

Well obviously it also depends on terrain. Here there's generally quite a good amount of terrain(so that if you constantly can draw >36" ranges freely there's something weird going on) and terrain causes easily bottle necks. You might have 9" straight line but as dreadnought can't walk through ruin he has to go curved line. Opponents here use terrain and chaff pretty well to block optimal landing zones for 3 big bases.

Even getting to behind is generally no go against many armies(necrons are one of the easier ones though dreadnoughts aren't best at smashing immortals or wraiths anyway)

For those that have used Stormboyz much, what’s your typical minimum?

Wondering if I can risk going as low as 15. Means a squad will come out between 140-150 depending on nob weapon.

Go full or go 5 man other options makes no really sense

T1nk4bell wrote:
Go full or go 5 man other options makes no really sense

I don’t think I’d drop 275-285 on a full squad. I’d rather bikers at that point.

In terms of single model units like the various Speed Mob buggies, its the Deathskulls Kultur always better than the Badmoons one?

 dan2026 wrote:
In terms of single model units like the various Speed Mob buggies, its the Deathskulls Kultur always better than the Badmoons one?

Due to their low # of overall shots relatively speaking, they all count as MSU, yeah, DS is basically better. Plus they get a 6+ invul save. Megatrakk is probably on the margin if you really want to use it as Bad Moons, given it gets 12 big shoota shots, 2d3 rokkits, plus an additional Wing Missile.

I would consider Evil Suns on the Kustom Boosta Blasta, though. It gives your flamers an effective +3" range if you're willing to drive into your enemy, giving them a max range of 29" with a good advance roll.

 dan2026 wrote:
In terms of single model units like the various Speed Mob buggies, its the Deathskulls Kultur always better than the Badmoons one?

100% for the Shokkjump Dragsta. The Kustom Shokk Rifle was basically kustom made for the Deffskull kultur with how you basically reroll everything it has profile wise. The Megatrakk Scrapjet is a little more towards Bad Moons due to the higher number of shots it has and that it has static damage so you can't make as much use as the Deffskullz kultur, but given that it applies for CC as well (and it has an actual decent CCW), Deffskullz wins overall. It's also big to note that the 6+ invuln. actually comes in handy given that a lot of the times the buggies will be out of KFF range.

As far as Stormboyz size goes, I feel either 20 or 5 are the ideal numbers. 5 are good for deep striking onto objectives, the 20 are good for having a small enough footprint to hide behind LOS blocking cover while also large enough to sustain potential casualties. Personally, I like combo'ing the larger squads with Zagstruk to deal with any potential morale issues.

Thnaks thats basically what I thought.

Good idea on Evil Suns for the Boosta Blasta though.
As neither Skulls or Moons do anything much for its 4 main Burnas.

 Grimskul wrote:

As far as Stormboyz size goes, I feel either 20 or 5 are the ideal numbers. 5 are good for deep striking onto objectives, the 20 are good for having a small enough footprint to hide behind LOS blocking cover while also large enough to sustain potential casualties. Personally, I like combo'ing the larger squads with Zagstruk to deal with any potential morale issues.

Shame Zagstrukk is a Goff. I have little to no interest in Goffs, unfortunately. And he can't even help them advance and charge for whatever reason.

Evil Suns just seems to be the best option, as you want to use terrain as much as possible to keep them out of LOS. Having that +2 inch movement (with advance), and +1 charge threat range seems too important. Plus they can be deep struck or Da Jumped and charge depending on the matchup / mission, so that bonus charge might become really clutch.

I have been trying to budget for 20, I was wondering if I could cheat a little. 5 man squads seem interesting, though. 50 points for 4 boyz and a Nob w/ Big choppa, choppa could bully off weedy gak off objectives, they can deepstrike, and it's cheap as chips for the unit if they happen to whiff.

I like Goffs, but even Ghaz can't save them from a mediocre Kultur. Decent Stratagem though.

And you can easily take Ghaz without other Goffs to get his benefits anyway.

Our triumvirate of Kulturs is just too good. I am super curious if this will finally be cracked with PA, though. It seems like Nids and Eldar do have some interesting custom builds that people are starting to play around with.