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At least you all have a character for your kult. Evil sunz have to look at FW for theirs.

As for stormboyz, I only found value out of objective grabbing. They die far too fast for anything else.

Question. I'm thinking of building/kitbashing a mek with a kustom force-field because they seem so good. It's going to be heavily cyborged out so you could argue its a mek in mega-armor if I needed to... buuut

Are these going to hit legends any time soon? Seems like most that didnt make it to the codex got shelved. Does anyone predict KFF to be next?

tulun wrote:
And you can easily take Ghaz without other Goffs to get his benefits anyway.

Our triumvirate of Kulturs is just too good. I am super curious if this will finally be cracked with PA, though. It seems like Nids and Eldar do have some interesting custom builds that people are starting to play around with.

What do you consider the triumvirate?

I'd say Goffs, Sunz, Moons and Skulls are all great in different ways.

 dan2026 wrote:

tulun wrote:
And you can easily take Ghaz without other Goffs to get his benefits anyway.

Our triumvirate of Kulturs is just too good. I am super curious if this will finally be cracked with PA, though. It seems like Nids and Eldar do have some interesting custom builds that people are starting to play around with.

What do you consider the triumvirate?

I'd say Goffs, Sunz, Moons and Skulls are all great in different ways.

Evil Suns, Bad Moons, Deathskulls are the relevant kulturs in our codex. Freebootas get an honourable mention, but you really gotta buy into it (pretty much the whole army).

Given I can only take 3 detachments in proper matched play, Goffs simply don't provide enough benefits to lose out what any of those 3 provide for units I'm interested in. If you really want Ghaz, you can take him easily without really taking much else Goff.

tulun wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

tulun wrote:
And you can easily take Ghaz without other Goffs to get his benefits anyway.

Our triumvirate of Kulturs is just too good. I am super curious if this will finally be cracked with PA, though. It seems like Nids and Eldar do have some interesting custom builds that people are starting to play around with.

What do you consider the triumvirate?

I'd say Goffs, Sunz, Moons and Skulls are all great in different ways.

Evil Suns, Bad Moons, Deathskulls are the relevant kulturs in our codex. Freebootas get an honourable mention, but you really gotta buy into it (pretty much the whole army).

Given I can only take 3 detachments in proper matched play, Goffs simply don't provide enough benefits to lose out what any of those 3 provide for units I'm interested in. If you really want Ghaz, you can take him easily without really taking much else Goff.

Fair points.
It is tempting to go mono Freebooters, as I do love the Flash Gitz models.
I find it kinda stupid that they are locked to the Freebooter Kutur when the very fluff in the codex describes "Many Flash Gitz are from the Bad Moons Clan".
Its like the guy who wrote the rules didn't read the fluff...

Easily? I dunno about that. With a Supreme Command Detachment (the cheapest way to take him), you'll be losing out on 4 CP. You could throw him into a Battalion (with a Weirdboy and 30 Grots), but you're still paying 250ish pts for +1 attack on a charge (which we don't really need with Warpath) and a slightly less squishy (but still pretty easy to kill) suicide bomber. Probably just better off taking an Evil Sun Warboss and saving yourself 150 pts, even if they're a bit easier to kill and don't give +1 attack. Especially if your group uses Ro3, cuz a Goff detachment means you lose out on one of those incredibly useful Kulturz.

That said, Goffs ain't that bad. They just can't stack up to the Big 3. That's why I said it's a mediocre Kultur. Still better than Blood Axes or Snakebites though.

 flandarz wrote:
Easily? I dunno about that. With a Supreme Command Detachment (the cheapest way to take him), you'll be losing out on 4 CP. You could throw him into a Battalion (with a Weirdboy and 30 Grots), but you're still paying 250ish pts for +1 attack on a charge (which we don't really need with Warpath) and a slightly less squishy (but still pretty easy to kill) suicide bomber. Probably just better off taking an Evil Sun Warboss and saving yourself 150 pts, even if they're a bit easier to kill and don't give +1 attack. Especially if your group uses Ro3, cuz a Goff detachment means you lose out on one of those incredibly useful Kulturz.

That said, Goffs ain't that bad. They just can't stack up to the Big 3. That's why I said it's a mediocre Kultur. Still better than Blood Axes or Snakebites though.

If your detachment is mostly a CP battery, you can always go mixed.

Often my lists include a battalion with just HQs and 3 Grots anyway.

Badmoonz: helps accuracy in bulk shooting
Deathskullz: Offers 6++ and light help in any attacks, mostly the heavy hitting variety
Evil Sunz: Makes slow things fast so they can very reliably reach things
Freeboota: Helps shooting OR melee depending on circumstances. Also offers a "use" for Mek Gunz since they can trigger this bonus and reliably do so at that.

Goffs? Helps melee cause more hits with exploding 6s....

The Goff trait isnt bad, with the sheer number of melee attacks we can dish out thats a lot of potential extra hits, but the problem is its buffing what orks do best and not helping them survive longer or get there faster to do it in the first place. And taking a shooty unit in a Goff list is a joke so theres a LOT of units that simply does not work in Goff.

Thats why its kinda crap. Yeah if 10x bigchoppa Goff nobz manage to reach you its going to hurt like hell...guess what even kultureless ones would beat your face in anyway except against targets even the Goff buff doesnt help enough to justify charging (knights or other T8 melee meanies)

That bonus melee damage almost never matters compared to the bonus shooty kultures. Now if the Skarboyz thing was just stapled to the Goff kulture where all Goffs had +1Str and exploding 6s...then it would make a difference as that would push said bigchoppa nobz to S8 which is a big deal.

I can't think of a list that would want Ghaz, but wouldn't be using the Big 3 already. Infantry lists have a need for the bonuses granted by Evil Sunz (for getting your Boyz stuck in more reliably), by Bad Moonz (for those Lootaz and Shoota Boyz), and by Deathskullz (6++ is incredibly useful for our flimsy Boyz, and the rerolls really help out the SAG and SSAG you definitely brought along). I really can't think of an instance where, if building Infantry, I wouldn't want all three of those in my list.

IMO, the dream for PA6 would be (among other things) a buff for going mono-kultur, not making it better than having multiples but enough of a buff so it'd be viable.

Some sort of create you own kultur by picking two different buffs might be nice. At least in theory, but it might end up being a bit naff like the Tyranid ones.

They probably wont do this for Orks though.

 flandarz wrote:
I can't think of a list that would want Ghaz, but wouldn't be using the Big 3 already. Infantry lists have a need for the bonuses granted by Evil Sunz (for getting your Boyz stuck in more reliably), by Bad Moonz (for those Lootaz and Shoota Boyz), and by Deathskullz (6++ is incredibly useful for our flimsy Boyz, and the rerolls really help out the SAG and SSAG you definitely brought along). I really can't think of an instance where, if building Infantry, I wouldn't want all three of those in my list.

As much as I like Bad Moons, I think they could be the weak link in a more infantry focused list *if* you don't take tankbustas for anti-tank. The two ideal infantry based units in Bad Moons are Bustas and Lootas. And if you're scared of the marine matchup, Lootas are nerfed to hell. Stealthy screws over Lootas hard. 2+ armour save Primaris laugh off AP-1, and it leaves open the SSAG even more to sniper fire (which is probably far more useful in any marine matchup) because you need grots to keep your lootas alive.

I'd take Shoota boyz as Evil Suns anyway for the move + advance without penalty. It brings up their threat range slogging massively. Plus, you can still easily Da Junp -> Charge (Shoota boyz are fine in combat).

That being said, Ghazzy is probably not in any serious ITC list, so it's moot.

I hope when Ghaz gets his new model they beef up his stats accordingly.
Dude should be a massive meat monster. I hope he gets another wound and point of toughness. Maybe another attack too.

In an ideal world the Ghaz kit should dualed with a Mega Armour Warboss kit.
But I'd say the chances of that are almost zero.

Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz can be one of our best chaff-clearing units. 60 shots, with rerolls on 1s, and Dx3 is gonna be hard for almost any chaff to survive (assuming a unit size of 10, and taking into account Morale losses). Then you double it up to take out another unit or finish off the one you started with. If it's a particularly troublesome chaff unit, Moar Dakka can help as well.

Doesn't really matter because, as Vine mentioned, we don't really need the exploding 6s in CC as much as we need to be able to reliably get those units INTO CC. So I can't much see the appeal of bringing a Goff Detachment over an Evil Sunz one. Even for just a CP battery, you'll probably want Deathskullz just for the 6++ and Obsec on your Weirdboyz. Or (and I can't believe I'm saying this) Blood Axes for a better Save on them (since they'll likely either have Character Protection or be outside 18" the whole game).

The re-roll one thing is a bit more a red herring if you ask me with BS5. We might care enough when the gun we're using is powerful enough (Lootas, Flash Gitz), but on crap guns, it's not all that relevant.

For every 18 shots you get w/ re-roll ones, you should expect 1 extra hit on average (assuming 6 rolls you should expect one roll of 1, and you hit on 5's). Explosions help this a little, but ignoring that for a second, even 60 shots re-rolling ones we should only expect like 3.33 more hits because of it.

Shoot twice is the real deal BM boyz got, but it's probably not worth the CP generally.

And you are giving up making your Shoota boyz a much better bet for Da Jump -> Charge, and losing a bunch of range if they are slogging (I can only move 5" without shooting penalty or using More Dakka, or I can move a minimum of 8 and a max of 13" and still shoot with move + advance with ES).

If shootas were 24", we might have a convo, but I dunno. 18" guns without that move and advance is rough.

Remember what Jid said before: the threat of a charge is more important than actually making it with Boyz. If you're running Slugga Boyz (or even a 20/10 mix) I'd agree with you that Evil Sunz is better. But 30 Shoota Boyz are better off with the slightly less reliable charge (it's still like a 50/50 shot, with 'Ere We Go) and having a better ranged output.

And, yeah, you Da Jump them. T1: Da Jump your Shoota Boyz and let them clear chaff. T2: Da Jump/Tellyport your heavy hitters. In an all-Infantry list, Shoota Boyz are gonna be one of your better options for clearing a screen (second maybe to Flash Gitz and dependent on the match-up). Making them better at clearing screens is important. Even 1 more dead model can be significant when the Morale Phase rolls around.

If you're running Slugga Boyz or a mix, I 100% suggest Evil Sunz, because they clear units in CC. Shoota Boyz clear them at range, and you gotta go Bad Moonz to give them the output they need to do so.

Do you find that your opponents have to worry about Morale? Finding it hard to see a reason why the concept is kept in 40k, as so many factions have ways to mitigate/ignore the phase.
Have seen a Chaos army tricked out fo give their opponent some crippling Ld deductions, with a view to removing the most enemy models in the Morale pahase.
‘Good plan. Didn’t”t work.’

Has anyone done any trials with the different CC weapons on killa kans?

I know that they aren't the best CC by any stretch, but with "Scrag 'em!" and the power drilla weapon (which does a mortal wound on a to wound roll of 6), throwing a unit of 5 of them across the field and charging something which usually shrugs everything off due to an invulnerable save, such as Calgar or an invuln-knight (preferably the former due to overwatch!), they could do a fair amount of damage. Plus the fact that the drilla is pretty good as far as CC weapons go, with AP-4. I find anything AP-4 or better Is generally worth it - I prefer killsaws to powerklaws.

At no extra cost, you have a mortal wound generator. With 5 models, you have 4 attacks each (IIRC Scrag 'Em gives them +1A), so 20 attacks at S6 AP-4 damage 2 and MW's on 6's.

It's only of greater benefit when fighting units with invulnerable saves, I imagine hitting a knight with 5 of these and a couple of scrapjets from the front to tag It with 3D3 MW's (pop ramming speed one one of the vehicles) plus MW's from the kans, plus whatever the kans shooting did. It could well bring one down.

I hypothesised about this with my friend, who informed me that there's aknight who could reasonably not only kill all of them in 1 round of combat, but then throw them all at different targets each time! sounds fun, but perhaps not a winning tactic for me

I find the klaw to be the best weapon and honestly prefer the buzzsaw over the drilla as well since that at least generates another attack. The problem with procingg MW on kanz stems from the fact that they can't hit anything. 20 attacks nets you seven hits, and basically 1MW after all is said and done.

Sure you can improve this by having a waaagh banner nearby and perhaps even warpath but few would argue that's worth it. One of the things I keep yammering on about is grots (or at least Kanz) getting a mini-kultur in PA6. If they got a rule where they get +1 to hit in CC against targets with strength lower than them, and some sort of ranged/movement buff then they'd be a lot more interesting..

I get fluff wise why Grots wouldn't benefit from Kulturs, but in actual game terms its pretty stupid.

There is no real reason why they shouldn't benefit to be honest.

 some bloke wrote:
7: KFF is a must with so many vehicles. it saved a few high-damage wounds. keep him behind the dreads, and if they die, he's worthless anyway!

100% agree on this. Currently I run a foot mek in my buggy list simply to have that KFF coverage for T1 and T2, but I'll either convert a biker mek or get a Wazbomm instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
In terms of single model units like the various Speed Mob buggies, its the Deathskulls Kultur always better than the Badmoons one?

100% for the Shokkjump Dragsta. The Kustom Shokk Rifle was basically kustom made for the Deffskull kultur with how you basically reroll everything it has profile wise. The Megatrakk Scrapjet is a little more towards Bad Moons due to the higher number of shots it has and that it has static damage so you can't make as much use as the Deffskullz kultur, but given that it applies for CC as well (and it has an actual decent CCW), Deffskullz wins overall. It's also big to note that the 6+ invuln. actually comes in handy given that a lot of the times the buggies will be out of KFF range

Agree. I've tried evil suns, bad moons, deff skulls and freebootas with my buggies, and deff skulls yielded by far the best results, even on the scrapjet. Keep in mind that it really has 3-7 shots that matter so re-rolling ones is usually not as good as re-rolling a hit and a wound roll - especially if that re-rolled hit roll is the wing missile hitting on 4+ (always shoot that first!). The scrapjet is also the only buggy which really wants to be in combat, so it gets to double-dip from re-rolls in two phases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz can be one of our best chaff-clearing units. 60 shots, with rerolls on 1s, and Dx3 is gonna be hard for almost any chaff to survive (assuming a unit size of 10, and taking into account Morale losses). Then you double it up to take out another unit or finish off the one you started with. If it's a particularly troublesome chaff unit, Moar Dakka can help as well.

Current chaff to beat is primaris and space marine scouts though, shoota boyz don't really work against those.

In general the main reason to pick bad moons is to invest a bunch of points into a unit of tank bustas or lootas and then multiply they output by the bad moons culture, moar dakka and shoot twice, getting shooting worth more than twice the points you invested out of them. You don't even need the exact math to know that a unit costing 225 points putting down shooting worth 600+ points is good.

Keramory wrote:
At least you all have a character for your kult. Evil sunz have to look at FW for theirs.

As for stormboyz, I only found value out of objective grabbing. They die far too fast for anything else.

Question. I'm thinking of building/kitbashing a mek with a kustom force-field because they seem so good. It's going to be heavily cyborged out so you could argue its a mek in mega-armor if I needed to... buuut

Are these going to hit legends any time soon? Seems like most that didnt make it to the codex got shelved. Does anyone predict KFF to be next?

Big mek w/kff is in odd place now. It won't go on legends as it got points in CA19 BUT we also don't have official datasheet to match so ATM you can't use it in legends, index isn't usable and there's no datasheet to use the entry in CA19. So ATM you can't use it without totally house ruling it. It's not even level of "my group allows legends so I'm fine" as there's no big mek w/kff on legends and index is replaced(there's no more flow chart either). Now you literally need to house rule things(albeit not huge house rule). However entry in CA19 hints of future datasheet and seeing gw's no model no rule fixation hints also of upcoming model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dan2026 wrote:
I get fluff wise why Grots wouldn't benefit from Kulturs, but in actual game terms its pretty stupid.

There is no real reason why they shouldn't benefit to be honest.

It would for one lock mek guns to death skulls and neccessiate hefty price increase. DS mek guns would be silly good.

That or at least you need to change so they aren't all individual units.

Yeah, mek guns would be broken beyond belief if they got the deffskullz trait, hence why I'm arguing for a grot mini-kultur. Something that does very little for mek gunz (like buff melee and/or movement a little) but helps our poor killa kanz heaps more.

Allowing a runtherd (with a different grabba sticxk type upgrade) to give Kulture to 1 grot unit within 6 inch would be nice. Would still only effect 1 Mek gun but make units of Kanz better.

 Jidmah wrote:


Current chaff to beat is primaris and space marine scouts though, shoota boyz don't really work against those.

In general the main reason to pick bad moons is to invest a bunch of points into a unit of tank bustas or lootas and then multiply they output by the bad moons culture, moar dakka and shoot twice, getting shooting worth more than twice the points you invested out of them. You don't even need the exact math to know that a unit costing 225 points putting down shooting worth 600+ points is good.

Yeah, I agree with this. Doubling your output for Lootas and Tankbustas is the only reason take a BM detachment. I often don't care about Bad Moonz if neither of these units is in my list.

I also sort of don't view Shoota Boyz as a non-CC unit. Boyz in general have a good statline for CC, and Shoota Boyz can still have 3 attacks each (the same as stuff like... Stormboyz). They just have the ability to shoot, so are more flexible. For that reason, I don't see why I'd weaken their movement and charge range just to net very few extra shooting hits. If I have the CP to burn on shoot twice on them, I am not worried about the matchup. And I shouldn't rely solely on my Shoota boyz to clear chaff anyway.

Also, as we generally don't take any beyond the minimum # of troops, and there are already complaints that 30 grots can't protect Lootas, I don't think swapping a grot squad to Shoota Boyz makes much sense to me if this is your only BM detachment.

Re KFF Mek: Has anyone legitimately gotten grief for taking this model?

That's a fair point, but it bears mentioning that, even in ITC, Marines only make up about 25% of the meta. Shoota Boyz are significantly better at dealing with Guardsmen, Gaunts, and Shield Drones, where weight of attacks matters more than AP and Damage. So, I included them in with our chaff clearing units that benefit from Bad Moonz accordingly.

Yeah, Shoota Boyz are still great in CC, but I don't think the difference between Bad Moons or Evil Sunz is that great. With some quick head math, you're gonna be taking out roughly the same number of models, once you account for the charge chance.

I also believe the flexibility they provide outweighs the increased charge chance you'd miss out on with Evil Sunz. You could Da Jump them up, shoot one unit, double shoot another, and charge a third. Especially effective if your opponent is hiding things from your Lootas, who are more CP intensive to Jump to firing range, since they need Moar Dakka to hit on 5s after moving.

If you're running Infantry, you're probably bringing at least one unit of Boyz. For the extra flexibility (in regards to using Shoot Twice), you might do well to make them Bad Moonz. If it ain't your thing, I won't force it on ya. Hell, I don't even run Infantry that much, so take my words from an "outside observer" perspective. But I suppose it really depends on what you want from your Boyz. If you just wanna tie up threats, then Evil Sunz is a better choice. If you wanna clear chaff for more potent threats, I believe Bad Moonz does this more efficiently.

The argument wasn't whether or not swapping them made sense, but rather if a Bad Moons Shoota Boyz unit could be suitable anti-chaff. Against anything that ain't Marines, I'd argue that they do the job very well.

Side note: I love the Bad Moonz Relic. I just wish we had a Mega Armor Warboss to put it on. Basically just make a discount Ghaz.

I ain't used the KFF Mek, but I haven't heard anything about people complaining about it.

Yeah, I dig. I think it really comes down to if you want to shoot twice with your infantry, or even the OPTION in a TAC. On Lootas and tankbustas it’s obvious; shoota boys, well maybe. I can see it in the right matchup, sure.


Doubling your output is really why bad moons rock. And they are fine as a weaker substitute to death skulls if you’ve run out of slots for other shooting units.

tneva82 wrote:
Big mek w/kff is in odd place now. It won't go on legends as it got points in CA19 BUT we also don't have official datasheet to match so ATM you can't use it in legends, index isn't usable and there's no datasheet to use the entry in CA19. So ATM you can't use it without totally house ruling it. It's not even level of "my group allows legends so I'm fine" as there's no big mek w/kff on legends and index is replaced(there's no more flow chart either). Now you literally need to house rule things(albeit not huge house rule). However entry in CA19 hints of future datasheet and seeing gw's no model no rule fixation hints also of upcoming model.

So guys, what’s happening with the Index? I played a game with my brothers last week (it’s always friendly semi-competitive games) and I was running a Biker Boss. My brother said "you can’t use Index options since you have a codex!", but I’ve been using Index since forever! What’s the official position? There’s a Painboy on Warbike in Legends (but with no model) but no Warboss on Warbike (and we have a FW model)? That’s stupid! Even on BattleScribe Zhadsnark is not there anymore, it says "Warboss on Warbike (FW?)" so they aren’t sure either, it looks like!

So are you guys using Index?

Warboss on Warbike is FW now, but the strange thing is far as i know they havnt released a dataslate for him yet. Hes just listed in the CA19 under FW for costs.
Its probably safe to assume hes the same as the Index though and probably wont change outside getting Dakkadakkdakka

Ashkayel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Big mek w/kff is in odd place now. It won't go on legends as it got points in CA19 BUT we also don't have official datasheet to match so ATM you can't use it in legends, index isn't usable and there's no datasheet to use the entry in CA19. So ATM you can't use it without totally house ruling it. It's not even level of "my group allows legends so I'm fine" as there's no big mek w/kff on legends and index is replaced(there's no more flow chart either). Now you literally need to house rule things(albeit not huge house rule). However entry in CA19 hints of future datasheet and seeing gw's no model no rule fixation hints also of upcoming model.

So guys, what’s happening with the Index? I played a game with my brothers last week (it’s always friendly semi-competitive games) and I was running a Biker Boss. My brother said "you can’t use Index options since you have a codex!", but I’ve been using Index since forever! What’s the official position? There’s a Painboy on Warbike in Legends (but with no model) but no Warboss on Warbike (and we have a FW model)? That’s stupid! Even on BattleScribe Zhadsnark is not there anymore, it says "Warboss on Warbike (FW?)" so they aren’t sure either, it looks like!

So are you guys using Index?

Index is gone for good short of house rule. It's not even supported by GW with replacement being Legends.

For biker boss it's actually the other oddity. Points are in CA19 meaning it's not legends which is GOOD as not everybody allows legends but everybody allows what is in CA19 points. Issue is same as KFF mek...No datasheet and ergo short of house ruling you have no legal datasheet to use...yet. Of course unless the point cost entries were mistake it hints at upcoming new datasheets and/or model.

GW really dropped ball on those 2 entries. Putting point cost without datasheet is just stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah, mek guns would be broken beyond belief if they got the deffskullz trait, hence why I'm arguing for a grot mini-kultur. Something that does very little for mek gunz (like buff melee and/or movement a little) but helps our poor killa kanz heaps more.

That one would be no issue provided it also doesn't help basic grot squad enough that points go up by 1.

tneva82 wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah, mek guns would be broken beyond belief if they got the deffskullz trait, hence why I'm arguing for a grot mini-kultur. Something that does very little for mek gunz (like buff melee and/or movement a little) but helps our poor killa kanz heaps more.

That one would be no issue provided it also doesn't help basic grot squad enough that points go up by 1.

Yeah, of course. That'd be the point. That's why I suggested something in line with grot units getting +1 to hit in CC if the Strength of the attacking weapon exceeds the Toughness of the target (to symbolise they still very much are cowards and bullies). That'd never proc on any other grot units so no need to change points values because of that. Throw in some small movement buff, like +1" movement if a grot unit is within 6" of an Ork HQ at the start of the movement phase (because they're suck-ups and want to appease their idols/tyrants). That'd still buff normal grots and mek guns slightly but nowhere near enough to justify price hikes IMO.

Just something like that and a killa kan strat (that they're actually allowed to use) would go a long way.