Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

if it was a better FNP, it would be fine.
Like say the tougher the model the better the FNP.

T3-4 (including T3 since some things reduce toughness) its a basic 6+++
T5-6 its a 5+++
T7+ its a rerollable 5+++
Painboy gets perk to add +1 if its a mortal wound.

Though realistically im surprised they dont have a +1 to wound non-vehicles....poison shenanigans and all.

Deffskullz not only shine at low rate of fire. People make not enough math.

So what's better a deffsjukz dakka jet or a bad moon one?
Let's vs vs primaris marine chassi.?
Everyone who think well 18 shots its bad moonz.

But make the math. Vs t4 Amor 3
Bad moonz dakka jet = 4,1 dmg
Deffskull = 4,01 dmg and a 6++.

So the deffkulz one is better, same average dmg but 6++


Let's say shooter boys vs t4 Amor 3
Bad moonz = 4,5 dmg.
Deffkulz is 4,1 dmg.
0,4 dmg average less but 6++.

And don't forget Obsec for all infatry.
Don't forget every deffskull is better in meele than a bad moon unit.

that one doesnt feel right to me.
I run dakkajets alot as badmoonz and they generally cause 3-4 rerolls for me. You mean to tell me that 1 hit/wound reroll is better than 3-4 hit rerolls on average?
I would expect it to be fairly close but not exact/slightly better.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
that one doesnt feel right to me.
I run dakkajets alot as badmoonz and they generally cause 3-4 rerolls for me. You mean to tell me that 1 hit/wound reroll is better than 3-4 hit rerolls on average?
I would expect it to be fairly close but not exact/slightly better.

Math doesn't always comport to feelings.

That being said, while I'd love to do the math myself, I lack the stats of the Dakkajet. (AFB at the moment.) If you can list its guns, I can show the math more fully.

Dakkajets fire 18 (6x3 shooting guns) at S6 AP1 1D that hit on 4s if they dont splitfire.

Sometimes they plink off armor due to that AP1 and sometimes they just slaughter things for me. I love them.

im terrible at dice math i just know approximates i can expect. Factoring in DDD or rerolls throws that approximate out of whack lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Dakkajets fire 18 (6x3 shooting guns) at S6 AP1 1D that hit on 4s if they dont splitfire.

Sometimes they plink off armor due to that AP1 and sometimes they just slaughter things for me. I love them.

im terrible at dice math i just know approximates i can expect. Factoring in DDD or rerolls throws that approximate out of whack lol

Alright.

18 shots (Bad Moonz)
9 hits plus 3 rerolls plus 3 extra shots nets you...
9+1.5+1.75=12.25 hits
3+ to-wound gets you 8.17 wounds

18 shots (Deffskullz)
9 hits plus 1 reroll plus 3 extra shots nets you...
9+.5+1.5=11 hits
3+ to-wound nets you 7.33, plus 1 reroll gets you an extra .67 wounds, for 8 total wounds

They are really close.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
that one doesnt feel right to me.
I run dakkajets alot as badmoonz and they generally cause 3-4 rerolls for me. You mean to tell me that 1 hit/wound reroll is better than 3-4 hit rerolls on average?
I would expect it to be fairly close but not exact/slightly better.

Well that's pretty easy 3 rerolls average on bad moonz means 1,5 more hits on average when hitting on 4+ that means vs t4 its 1 wound more done so 0,5 dmg after safe more than without rerolls.

At deffskull you have a hit reroll that means average 0,5 more hits than normal. But than iyu have a wound reroll at 3+ that means 0,66 wounds + 0,33 from the rerolled hit = 1 extra wound.

That's wy both do the same average dmg

yup that lines up with what i usually end up with via badmoonz. Majority hits but good chunk still get saved.
Thanks

Course the Wazbom obviously is better with deathskullz since it only has...4 shots w/o the extra supashootas and all 4 are deadly ones.

18 shoot Bad moonz =
3 rerolls = 21 /6 = 3,5
So 21 shots + 3,5 shots where you can reroll ones = 4,08
So overall 25,08 shots = 12,54 hits and 8,36 wounds. ( vs t4)
After 3+ goes to 4 + = 4,18 dmg done.


Deffskull =
18 shots +1 reroll = 19 /6 = 3,16 dakka dakka dakka
So 22,16 shots average = 11, 08 hits.
11,08 hits Wounding on 3+ with one reroll = 8,05 wounds vs t4
After 3+ goes to 4 + = 4,02 dmg


It's more or less the same dmg but the deffskull one has a 6++ that means math whise it makes no sense to play bad moon dakka Jets

At 18 shots, bad moon edges on the dakkajet, sure.

But I’d rather the invul save and a slight efficiency loss. If they are forced to overkill you or you randomly make a couple good saves, all of a sudden your plane is around another turn.

That’s more valuable which ultimately is the problem.

The DS rerolls also always proc ( unless you hit and wound every attack ) while hypothetically you can get zero rerolls as bad moons.

I’ll take consistency any day especially when the average isn’t so far off.

While I agree that DS is our "best" Kultur, and I wouldn't suggest building a BM or ES detachment if you don't want to, I can certainly see the value in these Kulturz over DS for certain units. Boyz, for example, perform better as ES than DS. Simalarly, Lootaz perform better as BM than DS.

Well yes totaly agree here, there units that are better as es or bm.
But that overall thinking ds shines just at low rate of fire isn't true.
As in the example a ds dakka jet has extrem nearly the same output than a bm one but has a 6++.

Lootaz alone for bad moon strat are bad in every other faction

 flandarz wrote:
While I agree that DS is our "best" Kultur, and I wouldn't suggest building a BM or ES detachment if you don't want to, I can certainly see the value in these Kulturz over DS for certain units. Boyz, for example, perform better as ES than DS. Simalarly, Lootaz perform better as BM than DS.

If you can leverage Showin' Off like I stated, Bad Moons is a fine/solid choice. This is realistically Lootas or Tankbustas and I guess a SAG/SSAG. Shoota Boyz its a bit wasted imo, because it's just a lot CP for what's basically just a bunch of Str 4 AP 0. I'd rather bank it for more vital things. I guess you could shoot Burnas twice for the lulz.

Tankbustas are totally fine as Deathskullz, though. Instead of making the TB as a suicide bomb out of the tellyporta (or da jump), you throw them in a vehicle (trukk, battlewagon, big trakk...). Tankbustas are really, really good even without stratagems. Re-roll all hits is even pretty accurate when they are hitting on 6s (hitting ~30% of the time). And trying to keep our units around longer imo is a better way to play.

Boys though? I'm not actually sure. It seems like the main purpose of Evil Suns is for the Da Jump -> charge. I'm not sure this strategy is effective enough anymore in the current meta. Marines have a good toolkit against deep strikers, and frankly, *destroy* boys as they land and in overwatch. They don't really achieve their stated goal -- a bunch of bodies tying gak up. And if TFCs are going off, this deep strike and charge literally cannot work.

I would argue that using Boys as objective campers / holders is probably more useful. It means that TFCs don't bother you as much, as the main flip off is Tremor Shells. As Deathskulls, you can toss in a couple rokkits to the squad and all of a sudden they can threaten vehicles at range, as well maybe take down a Centurion or a couple Primaris. They have a 6++ save, so they are lasting longer, and are less dependent on the KFF to stay alive. This also means they can properly spread out and screen for your more useful units in the back. Combo this with a painboy or Mad Dok, and your Boys can be a lot more resilient for their point cost.
Nobs under DS are also *way* more potent. Re-roll klaw to hit, wound, and damage is massive; Similar with the kill saw.

And if you really, really want to Da Jump -> Charge, you still succeed the charge 58% of time (IE: the majority).

I'm not sure leaning into this one trick is worth it on Boys anymore. I hope people try to shift away from it in more competitive play.

I will say this, though. I think Kommandos have a lot of potential under ES still. Infiltrating for 0 CP and without having to succeed a psychic test is very interesting... you're spending less points on the squad for similar effect (Max of 15 boys). Baiting out Auspex scan on a unit that's ~50% the point cost is better than the 30 man boy squads people usually use.

I think it depends on play style to be honest. I run Evil Sunz exclusively, it's my clan. Even my dakkajets and SSAG are Evil Sunz lol.

It doesn't help for every unit but for some it can be a game changer - Meganobz for example are deceptively quick when they're ES with a warboss knocking around to allow advance and charge. Speedfreek units get +2 movement so they fly around the board. In traditional Green Tide lists Boys can just run up the field with ES. For my money movement is the most important part of the game, if I can exploit that in any way I try to.

Not a great choice for the SAGMek though.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I think it depends on play style to be honest. I run Evil Sunz exclusively, it's my clan. Even my dakkajets and SSAG are Evil Sunz lol.

It doesn't help for every unit but for some it can be a game changer - Meganobz for example are deceptively quick when they're ES with a warboss knocking around to allow advance and charge. Speedfreek units get +2 movement so they fly around the board. In traditional Green Tide lists Boys can just run up the field with ES. For my money movement is the most important part of the game, if I can exploit that in any way I try to.

Not a great choice for the SAGMek though.

Movement is definitely important. And playing mono kultur because you like it, no qualms from me (this is all just competitive chat after all).

But I dunno. So say Deff Koptas... is going from 14" to 16" that important? In some situations it might be. Or is it better to improve its shooting, CC, and defensive capabilities? I would wager in more situations, the DS bonuses are gonna win here.

MANz are definitely a good ES option, as the defensive stuff of DS is kind of wasted (6++ doesn't matter at all until AP-5). So you're weighing some re-rolls and ObSec against a better charge threat, and I guess advance + shooting without penalty. I can see the argument here. But as a caveat, advance + charge w/ Deathskulls is still workable. And MANz are often objective campers anyway, so having ObSec is nice.

I don't see it as much with Boys, though. They really benefit from the whole DS package and it seems like the main reason to use them for ES is Da Jump -> Charge. If that isn't as good anymore, what does ES offer you for that unit?

It's important to remember that, while Marines make up a significant portion of the meta, they don't make up ALL of it. So while ES Boyz aren't as good against Marines (and to a lesser extent, Tau), they work wonders against nearly anything else you'll find on the board. Part of making a competitive list is building to be able to handle anything that comes your way. Having a single ES Detachment with some Boyz, MANz, etc. helps in a lot of situations, even if they're lackluster against Marines.

Edit: For example, you could probably build a straight "Marine killer" list right now. But it'd probably get wiped by Eldar Flyers. It's easy to tailor a list to a specific opponent, but much harder to make one that performs well against everyone (unless you're running New-Marines).

 flandarz wrote:
It's important to remember that, while Marines make up a significant portion of the meta, they don't make up ALL of it. So while ES Boyz aren't as good against Marines (and to a lesser extent, Tau), they work wonders against nearly anything else you'll find on the board. Part of making a competitive list is building to be able to handle anything that comes your way. Having a single ES Detachment with some Boyz, MANz, etc. helps in a lot of situations, even if they're lackluster against Marines.

Edit: For example, you could probably build a straight "Marine killer" list right now. But it'd probably get wiped by Eldar Flyers. It's easy to tailor a list to a specific opponent, but much harder to make one that performs well against everyone (unless you're running New-Marines).

Couldn’t I take kommandos ( or Stormboyz I guess) instead if I just want a unit to deep strike and charge? Seems like they fill that niche well. And no TFC bs. Doesn’t get around auspex scan ( or similar) but you can also overwhelm them with units on T2 or 3.

Bear in mind that that 30 Stormboyz is gonna run ya an extra 60 pts, and Kommandos max out at 20 models (for 160 pts). Basically, you're either investing more points into doing what Boyz can do for cheaper, or you're severely reducing the threat of the unit (no extra attacks for 20+, and less attacks over all). Can they fill the niche? Sure. But they're far less efficient at it.

 flandarz wrote:
Bear in mind that that 30 Stormboyz is gonna run ya an extra 60 pts, and Kommandos max out at 20 models (for 160 pts). Basically, you're either investing more points into doing what Boyz can do for cheaper, or you're severely reducing the threat of the unit (no extra attacks for 20+, and less attacks over all). Can they fill the niche? Sure. But they're far less efficient at it.

No, I don't think is true.

I don't think we should give two gaks about the +1 attack on Boyz. Each Choppa/Slugga boy already gets 3 attacks; the Nob gets 3 big ones+1 from his choppa. Adding that 4th is overkill against Chaff, and doesn't turn the tide against PEQ. It's only really nice on the Nob, but going to 4 nob attacks isn't going to make the unit amazing.

If I'm fighting against armies with Forewarned / Auspex scan /etc, I'd rather have two 15 man squads, or three 10 man squads (Kommandos are max 15 by the by). I can have them show up and assault the unit at the same time. Imagine I do this PLUS add 2-3 Deff Dreads on the same turn.

They can only counter one portion of the unit I am normally throwing at them. And it doesn't cost me any CP to DS them. I can't do it turn 1, yeah, but 1 unit Da Jumping is going to get wrecked by Scan / Overwatch anyway. And it should be just as effective against other armies.

I don't think you really need a 30 man Stormboy squad to get the same effect as a 30 man Boy Blob.

Anthony 5th with 4 wins vs IH.
Speechless

 Emicrania wrote:
Anthony 5th with 4 wins vs IH.
Speechless

ALL of his games were against IH? You sure about that?

He's doing very well though. Let's hope he doesn't do too well since we all know GW will swing that nerf bat our way quick time and double hard.

Well, feel free to give it a try and let me know how it works out for ya, Tulun. Theory crafting is all well and good, but we ain't seeing folks running Stormboyz and Kommandos and using them in the same capacity as Boyz, and I hafta assume these tournament players have given them all a go and determined Boyz were better at the task.

To be honest, I just picked deff skulls over bad moons because I was sick of rolling all the re-rolls

Birdsong has had his swansong (ha) and lost to Kyle Thomsen who looks to me to be first placed with Sororitas primary.

He sits at 11th for now but no doubt as more scores come in he''ll drop a little. It was/is a good run though.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Anthony 5th with 4 wins vs IH.
Speechless

ALL of his games were against IH? You sure about that?

He's doing very well though. Let's hope he doesn't do too well since we all know GW will swing that nerf bat our way quick time and double hard.

Considering like 40% of all lists is probably iron hand it’s not that far fetched just boring

 Jidmah wrote:
To be honest, I just picked deff skulls over bad moons because I was sick of rolling all the re-rolls

This i will admit is something im leaning on lately.
Its only truly a problem for Boyz and Bikers but....man it takes so long to fish out the 1s, reroll them, fish out the 5/6s, roll DDDs, fish out the extra 1s, reroll them, fish out the remaining 5/6s, then go roll wounding lol.
I almost wish Bad Moonz was just a flat +1 to hit in shooting phase. Yeah it woudl skew things a bit, where -1 to hit would hurt more and some units would get pretty mean hitting on 4s, but....its math is almost the same as DDD+Rerolls anyway and would take SO MUCH LESS TIME lol

I like the DS lore, so I tend to use them. Just lootin' all the stuff all the time. Throw some blue on there and now it's mine.

Freebooterz is also cool lore. Just a bunch of green space pirates going around and being piratey. Selling their services to anyone who can afford it. Good times. I just wish the Kultur was better. A +1 is awful nice until you fight that guy with 3 Knights and nothing else (or a Dread bomb) and you never proc it early enough for it to be useful.

Jeff Poole is 8th.

With a pretty bog standard ork list.

tulun wrote:

And if you really, really want to Da Jump -> Charge, you still succeed the charge 58% of time (IE: the majority). .

Especially as it\s quite possible the 12" prevention trick becomes more common in future expanding to other factions. Good if you can figure out way to play where that's good support, not key element.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
To be honest, I just picked deff skulls over bad moons because I was sick of rolling all the re-rolls

Always valid reason I was somewhat annoyed when codex came and saw bad moon trait. I would have preferred bonus that's less dice rolling.

New to 8th edition, haven't played since the dark days of Taudar and the Screamerstar in 6th. Built a ton of vehicles to play mech Orks because not interested in moving 150+ boyz around the board again lol.

Wondering if someone can point me to a basic guide on playing mech orks? Don't want to dredge through the 220 page thread! Doesn't need to be the most powerful just good enough to do ok against most stuff - there more to play than to necessarily win all of the games

Today I played against Death Guard with Mortarion, who in my first turn of shooting tanked about 1500 points of mek gunz, random shootas, a kill tank and five supa kannons losing about 3 of 18 wounds (that was *before* he got hit modifier spells on him etc) He proceded to fly around the map being invincible, healing from another daemon and instantly killing anything he got close to lol. Wondering what you guys recommend for taking down big beasties like this!

I also found that my firepower were routinely being stumped by basic nurglings, who took multiple turns of shooting from multiple units to die after invulns and disgustingly resilient. Any tips on facing units with multiple armour saves like this?