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 Emicrania wrote:
I got an heart attack there for a second.... My list for next week GT was in and couldn't change it

Sorry Vine if I misunderstood

Did you get a chance to run your Stormboys yet?

tulun wrote:
The buggy style, buzzing around seems like good fun, but honestly, I'd keep them deffskulls. They get stronger in shooting and combat.

You are very likely still charging on turn 2 anyway even without advancing turn 1, unless they've fallen back into their deployment zone. You can keep some fast elements if you want as ES (Stormboyz), but you are losing a lot of consistency just to move a bit faster. Heck, once you're out of KFF, that random 6+ invul is a god send.

Deffskulls is definitely the stronger choice for buggies ordinarily. But if I'm really committed to this idea of a megatrakk attack force, I think ES is better. The added mobility is huge - 3 inches per turn, plus the advance doesn't give you a -1 to hit, plus the +1 to charge. If you're advancing, ES is better for shooting than deffskulls, especially since the buggy's weapons are all fixed damage, so the damage reroll is wasted. The deffskull kulture does make them quite a bit better in combat, since you get the full use out of it. But I figure with this list, getting into combat with your buggies is more important than maximizing your damage once you're there. Failing a charge will lose you the game with this list; failing a wound or rolling a 1 for damage is much less likely to cost you.

Most importantly, if you run deffskulls, you basically completely give up the alternate way to run the list, putting the buggies in the tellyporta and then going for a T2 strike from DS with all your CC units while denying the opponent any good targets on T1, because that +1 to charge is critical to making charging from DS a viable strategy. If you build the list with this second possibility in mind, you can set up so that basically grots are the only thing they can shoot T1, except maybe the wazbom with very long-range stuff (put it all the way in a corner away from everything else and they aren't going to be able to shoot it with a lot of their anti-tank unless they really commit to it, which is what you want since it opens up holes for your DS to come in on or forces them to forgo shorter-range shooting that turn if they elect to keep their forces together).

So you get a little better CC, and a bit better resilience, but you lose massive mobility and a second way to run the army. I don't think that's really worth it. The concept is all about messing with people, so I think I'd rather guarantee the messing potential than the resilience. I feel like the ability to force your opponent to deploy not knowing whether they're facing a T1 table charge or a T2 DS charge is absolutely huge.

A little better is good. Two ds scrapjets has about same dmg output than 3 es.
That's huge. So 6 deffsjukz scrapjets do same ammount of dmg than 9 evil sunz.
+ more meele.
Shokk jump its more than 50% more dmg ouput at deffskulls

All the buggies become relatively ridiculous when theyre deathskullz and anywhere from complete crap to decent with non-deathskullz
Except squigbuggy, zog dat one.
Given GW's track record with orks im worried they may axe Deathskulls a bit since its so obviously better than the other kultures, rather than bring the other kultures back up to par.

T1nk4bell wrote:
A little better is good. Two ds scrapjets has about same dmg output than 3 es.
That's huge. So 6 deffsjukz scrapjets do same ammount of dmg than 9 evil sunz.
+ more meele.
Shokk jump its more than 50% more dmg ouput at deffskulls

Is it really that high? Jesus, lucky is broken.

T1nk4bell wrote:
A little better is good. Two ds scrapjets has about same dmg output than 3 es.
That's huge. So 6 deffsjukz scrapjets do same ammount of dmg than 9 evil sunz.
+ more meele.
Shokk jump its more than 50% more dmg ouput at deffskulls

Well it goes without saying you'd take deffskulls for the wazbom, and any shokkjumps if you take those. Both of those are set up to benefit immensely from the rerolls.

Megatrakks get much less benefit from the rerolls, however, and much more benefit from the extra movement and being able to advance and fire without the penalty. So it's not nearly so clear-cut. I haven't done the math but I'd be really surprised if deffskulls produces more shooting damage on a megatrakk than evil sunz, if advancing them is an important part of your strategy. The -1 to hit on all your shots surely hurts you a lot more than a single reroll to hit and wound helps you.

It's a fairly small thing in the current meta, but you also lose out on the ES warlord trait that lets you fall back and charge, and on Drive-by Krumpin'. Now it isn't common with how the game is set up right now that your opponent is going to stay in combat with your megatrakk and both the megatrakk and the other unit will survive till your turn for you to fall back then charge AND your deffkilla trike is still alive and around to grant the aura...but if this does come up, it could win you the game to be able to fall back and charge a different target instead, or even just to fall back and recharge the same unit to strike first and get a 50% chance at D3 mortal wounds. Similarly, Drive-by Krumpin' is extremely situational...but if you end up in just the right situation (most likely in the late game, when both you and your opponent are almost out of units) where that 12 inch move can get you out of range or line of sight of a unit that would destroy you otherwise, it could win you the game.

Basically I agree that most of the time deffskulls is the better choice, but in a list built in a certain way, I think ES is a viable choice, even if it'll only be the superior one in a minority of games.

By all means, go ahead and try it if it floats your boat.

I think the thing with the Megatrakk is is that it doesn't *really* wanna get into combat as it's main strategy.

It's basically a Nob with a Power Klaw. The ram is nice too, but it has always felt to me like an opportunistic charger.

The reason why it's so good is that 2d3 rokkits plus the wing missile already holds its weight.. and it has a bunch of above average big shoota shots baked in.

So the strategy itself is kind of flawed. You wanna shoot with it as much as possible, until a good setup comes and it roars ahead.

Deathskull rerolls also make it a lot more consistent in close combat once it gets there.

Megatrakk should not be seeing melee unless its not going to get away from it, in which case it might as well charge for spiked ram potential.
It does enough damage to potentially finish off a marine or two...thats about it. But without any fall back and shoot mechanic it cant risk being stuck in combat.

We really shoulda got a Buggy with Pistols and a good CC profile. The Snazzwagon would have been perfect for it too, with the -1 to hit.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Megatrakk should not be seeing melee unless its not going to get away from it, in which case it might as well charge for spiked ram potential.
It does enough damage to potentially finish off a marine or two...thats about it. But without any fall back and shoot mechanic it cant risk being stuck in combat.

Yeah, it may end up just not working at all. My thought was that it's better to shoot then charge into something that is shooty than to just shoot then let it shoot back at you and likely blow you up on the next turn - at least that way you get the 50% chance at the mortal wounds plus probably another couple wounds from the CC. And then on their turn, they have to choose whether to fall back - in which case if you do survive you can shoot then charge again to repeat the cycle - or to stay in combat, in which case you can't be shot at, so you probably live that way too. It seems like in most circumstances being "stuck" in combat is actually a lot better than being sitting out there to be shot at. Especially if you've got some other stuff in the same combat (deffkilla, warboss on warbike, stormboyz), and you have a decent chance of wiping their unit on their turn.

I probably wouldn't charge with the megatrakks on their own unless I absolutely needed to shut down the shooting of the thing I'm charging for the next turn...but if you're charging with the deffkilla/warboss/stormboyz anyway, unless I'm just missing something, piling into stuff with the megatrakks too seems a lot better than just having them sit there in a prime firing corridor.

tulun wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
I got an heart attack there for a second.... My list for next week GT was in and couldn't change it

Sorry Vine if I misunderstood

Did you get a chance to run your Stormboys yet?

I tried a match last Sunday Vs Astra . Dawn of war deployment. I won T1 basically.

I'll try the worst IH list on Sunday, triple TFC, eliminators, infiltrators and such, let's see what happens

yukishiro1 wrote:

Deffskulls is definitely the stronger choice for buggies ordinarily. But if I'm really committed to this idea of a megatrakk attack force, I think ES is better. The added mobility is huge - 3 inches per turn, plus the advance doesn't give you a -1 to hit, plus the +1 to charge. If you're advancing, ES is better for shooting than deffskulls, especially since the buggy's weapons are all fixed damage, so the damage reroll is wasted. The deffskull kulture does make them quite a bit better in combat, since you get the full use out of it. But I figure with this list, getting into combat with your buggies is more important than maximizing your damage once you're there. Failing a charge will lose you the game with this list; failing a wound or rolling a 1 for damage is much less likely to cost you.

Most importantly, if you run deffskulls, you basically completely give up the alternate way to run the list, putting the buggies in the tellyporta and then going for a T2 strike from DS with all your CC units while denying the opponent any good targets on T1, because that +1 to charge is critical to making charging from DS a viable strategy. If you build the list with this second possibility in mind, you can set up so that basically grots are the only thing they can shoot T1, except maybe the wazbom with very long-range stuff (put it all the way in a corner away from everything else and they aren't going to be able to shoot it with a lot of their anti-tank unless they really commit to it, which is what you want since it opens up holes for your DS to come in on or forces them to forgo shorter-range shooting that turn if they elect to keep their forces together).

So you get a little better CC, and a bit better resilience, but you lose massive mobility and a second way to run the army. I don't think that's really worth it. The concept is all about messing with people, so I think I'd rather guarantee the messing potential than the resilience. I feel like the ability to force your opponent to deploy not knowing whether they're facing a T1 table charge or a T2 DS charge is absolutely huge.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Megatrakk should not be seeing melee unless its not going to get away from it, in which case it might as well charge for spiked ram potential.
It does enough damage to potentially finish off a marine or two...thats about it. But without any fall back and shoot mechanic it cant risk being stuck in combat.

I agree vine.
If you really want to exploid to get most out of shooting and close comba with Scrapjetst I´d rather play them as Blood Axes. The Evil Suns WL trait just enables charging after falling back and i guess i would rather have the ability to shoot or charge with the BA trait and not depend on the warlord being alive for that. Also the Scrapjets would get a 3+ save over 18" but i guess thats not much since you want to charge and will be under 18" most of the time.

I get the idea of ES Scrapjets adding to an Evil Sunz alpha strike but i think there are better alternatives than invest 300 points in 3 Scrapjets that loose lots of dakka for that cc.
Especially with DS buggies being that good.
DS Scrapjets can still shoot 2 turns and then charge turn 2 if there are some odd marines left to kill or if you want to tie up shooty stuff.
If you really want to get that turn one charge you can still shockjump one dragsta and use ramming speed. You`ll loose a bit cc potential but if it`s just about preventing shooty stuff shooting the dragsta works as well.

 flandarz wrote:
We really shoulda got a Buggy with Pistols and a good CC profile. The Snazzwagon would have been perfect for it too, with the -1 to hit.

Or maybe the squigbuggy? The Orks would just be throwing their ammunition over the sides into the enemy.

I had considered the blood axe option, but at that point I do think deffskulls is just better, especially since taking them as bloodaxes would require adding a new detachment whereas taking them as ES or deffskulls doesn't since the list has one of each anyway.

Obviously it's better to let them shoot if they're going to be able to shoot. I guess I've just found in the current meta that every list is so shooty that if you leave something like a buggy out there within 24 inches to be shot at, it's not going to be there the next turn to shoot back. That's been my issue with buggies generally, TBH - they are just so fragile that "move forward and shoot" tends to result in them dying before your next turn.

And in that meta, if you do charge...95% of the time they'll fall back on their turn, so you don't really lose anything by charging except maybe being within melta range or something like that when you otherwise wouldn't have been.

Obviously you wouldn't be charging anything that wants to be in melee with you, that would be silly. But if you have a choice between shooting then sitting there to be shot back at by a tank or anti-tank ranged infantry, or shooting then charging that unit...it seems like charging is almost always better than not charging. Unless you can drive-by krumpin' out of LOS...but again, you lose that with deffskulls.

I mean I totally hear you on the deffskulls things in general. I may well be overvaluing the mobility, because in reality a good opponent probably isn't going to let you charge multiple units with multiple buggies, whether it's on T1 or on T2 from DS.

I think I am going to have to just give it a shot and see how much mileage (ha, ha) I can get out of the movement tricks. The idea behind the list is to basically make it so your opponent doesn't have anything good to shoot during the turn(s) when it matters most, then to tie stuff up, so if he can shoot, it'll be at significantly reduced strength. If the strategy ends up working, I think ES is the right choice. But if it's just a flawed strategy in the first place, obviously deffskulls will work better if you're just going to play buggies the normal "hang back and try to minimize the fire you're exposed to using LOS" way.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Deffskulls is definitely the stronger choice for buggies ordinarily. But if I'm really committed to this idea of a megatrakk attack force, I think ES is better. The added mobility is huge - 3 inches per turn, plus the advance doesn't give you a -1 to hit, plus the +1 to charge. If you're advancing, ES is better for shooting than deffskulls, especially since the buggy's weapons are all fixed damage, so the damage reroll is wasted. The deffskull kulture does make them quite a bit better in combat, since you get the full use out of it. But I figure with this list, getting into combat with your buggies is more important than maximizing your damage once you're there. Failing a charge will lose you the game with this list; failing a wound or rolling a 1 for damage is much less likely to cost you.
Most importantly, if you run deffskulls, you basically completely give up the alternate way to run the list, putting the buggies in the tellyporta and then going for a T2 strike from DS with all your CC units while denying the opponent any good targets on T1, because that +1 to charge is critical to making charging from DS a viable strategy. If you build the list with this second possibility in mind, you can set up so that basically grots are the only thing they can shoot T1, except maybe the wazbom with very long-range stuff (put it all the way in a corner away from everything else and they aren't going to be able to shoot it with a lot of their anti-tank unless they really commit to it, which is what you want since it opens up holes for your DS to come in on or forces them to forgo shorter-range shooting that turn if they elect to keep their forces together).

My experience with ES megatrakks is that the extra 2" (move+advance) aren't enough to make a difference. You'll not be able to reach anything T1 that you weren't able to reach without the 2" and you won't able to shoot or charge anything T2 that you weren't able to reach with the 20" movement anyways.
Also keep in mind that a megatrakk is roughly equal in combat ability to a a PK nob... which isn't exactly that awesome. With just 4+ armor and T6 they also take quite some damage in return.
In general you don't want scrapjets in combat, as they aren't actually good at it. They are great at shooting, so make sure to keep them shooting.

So you get a little better CC, and a bit better resilience, but you lose massive mobility and a second way to run the army. I don't think that's really worth it. The concept is all about messing with people, so I think I'd rather guarantee the messing potential than the resilience. I feel like the ability to force your opponent to deploy not knowing whether they're facing a T1 table charge or a T2 DS charge is absolutely huge.

A unit of scrapjets has got 12 S8 attacks hitting on 4+, with AP-2 and d3 damage. Even if you assume that you get all of them in combat (likely not possible), we are taking about four dead primaris, seven dead chaff models or seven damage on a vehicle. Afterwards, the enemy will fall back and just krak-grenade, shoot and melee the scrapjets to death. For less points, you could just field a gorkanaut. I doubt that charging from deep strike is a valid alternate play style for buggies.

 Grotrebel wrote:
If you really want to exploid to get most out of shooting and close comba with Scrapjetst I´d rather play them as Blood Axes. The Evil Suns WL trait just enables charging after falling back and i guess i would rather have the ability to shoot or charge with the BA trait and not depend on the warlord being alive for that. Also the Scrapjets would get a 3+ save over 18" but i guess thats not much since you want to charge and will be under 18" most of the time.

I have yet to have a scrapjet live to see the turn after it charged tough. Even if you do notable damage, it is a high priority target within range of every random melta gun, krak grenade and pistol and every rapid fire gun is able to double-tap them. They are much better off staying at max range and shoot another turn than charging.

I get the idea of ES Scrapjets adding to an Evil Sunz alpha strike but i think there are better alternatives than invest 300 points in 3 Scrapjets that loose lots of dakka for that cc.
Especially with DS buggies being that good.

What ES alpha strike? The only kind of alpha strike we have is SAGs and lootas. All T1 charges serve the sole purpose of tying up enemy movement and shooting.

DS Scrapjets can still shoot 2 turns and then charge turn 2 if there are some odd marines left to kill or if you want to tie up shooty stuff.

Assuming you still have a scrapjet by turn 2 (I usually don't), you should not charge them. Stay at range, keep shooting all those rokkits and big shootas.

If you really want to get that turn one charge you can still shockjump one dragsta and use ramming speed. You`ll loose a bit cc potential but if it`s just about preventing shooty stuff shooting the dragsta works as well.

The wartrike can usually pull of T1 charges with no help. However, even though it's the best buggy in combat, it's really not great at it. I've had it fail to kill a single librarian. When playing buggies, you need to drop part of the ork mentality - charges are in no way advantageous to you, keep your distance, try to get cover or try staying out of LoS for powerful anti-tank guns and just keep shooting all those great guns they have. Even a deff skulls wartrike will serve you better by shooting that assault2 melta every turn than by charging something and dying.

I think there is still this odd inclination that Orks are a CC army.

We are a shooting army... 8th edition doesn't really like t-shirt save units that wanna charge.

We don't mind getting into CC necessarily, but it's not really the goal for most of our competitive builds.

Wot ‘e said.

Vast majority of our units are shooting oriented. We are supposed to compensate for poor BS with number of shots/cheap platforms, but not so much these days with the general buffing of shooting for other factions and reductions in their points.

tulun wrote:
I think there is still this odd inclination that Orks are a CC army.

We are a shooting army... 8th edition doesn't really like t-shirt save units that wanna charge.

We don't mind getting into CC necessarily, but it's not really the goal for most of our competitive builds.

I resent that!

As you said, 8th edition is not very friendly to CC (especially the low durability kind that we, Nidz, and Daemons favor), but that doesn't necessarily make Orkz a shooty army. Our competitive options for shooting are, frankly, extremely limited and gimmick-reliant. Of course, we ain't really a CC army either, because, despite having (at least) a serviceable statline for it, as mentioned, this edition is pretty punishing to our style of CQC combat.

All said, I'd label us more as "switch-hitters". We can perform well at range or at CC, and which we prefer to get into is dependent on the unit, the current game situation, and our opponent. With the exact same list we can take out Tau without ever charging in, or can rush into a Guard line and start picking them apart.

Really, our biggest shortcoming is that we lack durability for our point cost. We can mitigate this a bit via KFF and/or a Painboy, but even with them we tend to die in droves. As I said before, GW just can't seem to decide whether we should be a "field a ton of cheap, expendable models and overwhelm our opponent's defense" army or a "field fewer, stronger models and beat our opponent to death before they can wipe us out" army, and it makes our competitive builds extremely skewed, predictable, and boring.

8th edition is about getting first turn and shooting everything, the only melee focused army playable is orkz, because this edition they shoot better than fight, and get victory points with tons of corpses

Again, Orkz don't really "shoot better than they fight". Overall, our shooting is pretty average, and we have better than average CC. Problem is, if you can't make it to CC, then that CC statline doesn't do jack for ya, and our survivability options are extremely limited. So, I guess you could say that average shooting is, technically, better than getting murdered before you can use your good CC.

Lootas, ssag, tankbustas and smashers dont shoot average, they are absolutely broken and one of the most powerful shooting units in the game, outplaying even tau, in a marine equivalency

Great. We have a total of 4 units which have "broken" shooting (by your standards). Out of approximately 50 datasheets in our Codex. Yup. We sure do shoot better than we fight.

Edit: in case it wasn't clear, I actually disagree on the assertion that any of those units are broken. Lootas have all but disappeared from the meta, Tankbustas also seem to be fielded very rarely, and the SSAG requires you spend 1CP and take a Relic to even field. The only one that comes close to "broken" is the Smasha, but if you run the numbers you'll find that (unless you spam them) they really aren't throwing out that much damage.

My bad for not playing warbikes and bretonia, we are so bad at shooting, jesus necron warriors needs a nerf right now

Kebabcito wrote:
Lootas, ssag, tankbustas and smashers dont shoot average, they are absolutely broken and one of the most powerful shooting units in the game, outplaying even tau, in a marine equivalency

You assume they don't get shot back/have a Trukk/use Grot shields though right?

Because none of those units you've mentioned trade particularly well if they're dead because the opponent farted in their general direction. Evil Sunz Tankbustas don't strike me as particularly good (let alone broken) when fired at a non-vehicle unit, if I'm honest.

 Jidmah wrote:
My experience with ES megatrakks is that the extra 2" (move+advance) aren't enough to make a difference.

Just as an FYI Jid - Evil Sunz Scrapjets (and all other ES Buggies, for that matter) move an extra 3" (+2" because 'Speed Freaks' and + 1" advance). I've found the extra movement to be very fun, particularly when we don't suffer a penalty for moving and firing Assault weapons.

i would not say the SSAG is the most broken shooty unit in the game.

Its the epitome of random. For every awesome shot i get with it i get 3-4 laughably bad ones that either did 1-2 damage or 0 damage. The only reason he seems so ridiculous is Big Killa Boss trait mitigates the random strength to a degree and people remember when he 1shots your knight a LOT easier than they remember him failing to wound a guardsmen.

And i have never heard lootas/tankbustas ever be looked as as "broken" - theyre soooooo squishy that they die after they delete something, making them more of a trade than an amazing powerhouse. In fact unless i had them in a Gargsquig ive never had them fire more than once in a game...ever...even with grot shields.

Smasha Mek Gun is not amazing, its actually quite mediocre. Its only used a lot because it can be massed for cheap, and theyre just lethal enough to be a pain if you ignore them but just durable enough to make you not want to. One or two smashas wont be doing much to turn the tide of the game, but 6 easily can. They could curb this by limiting how many we can field and never touch the cost and we'd still stop using them.

Mek guns are nice for filling out a Brigade or Spearhead, though. And although not amazingly tanky, they have a decent profile for their points.

I've found they've been great for target saturation. They are more efficiently killed by anti tank stuff, which can leave some of my other stuff left alone round 1, even if they never fire a shot.

Right, which is a niche not many people think about.

Something that is basically only there to be durable for its cost has incredible value if its capable of being a problem if ignored. Mek Gunz fit that role to a T (Killakanz are so close but alas, they suck), if you have 4-6 of them they can do some damage but if your opponent wants to get rid of them they wont stay around for long. But like you said, if the anti-tank stuff is hitting them your actual tanks are probably fine.

I do this tactic all the time and it baffles people when i say i brought a unit to die. Expecting every unit you bring to get its cost back is silly, if it can eat in excess of its cost in terms of firepower for a turn or two...thats a win as much as what it could have killed.
The amount of people i pissed off with my Piranha-Wall in 7th edition tau using this tactic was comical. They almost never did anything other than just get in the friggin way but they were crucial to my tactics as a mobile speedbump. And now in Admech currently i am doing it with dragoons lol

The bonus movement from ES scrapjets is way more than 2" - you get 2" just for movement, an extra +1 to advances and charges, and most importantly, you can advance and shoot without crippling your damage potential. So really in most situations you're looking at a realistic move of 10 for deffskulls scrapjets, vs 13-19 for ES ones. That's an average of 50% greater speed. Plus you get drive-by krumpin', so in fact if you spend 1 CP your move is 25-31", giving you potentially three times the speed...and the last 12 inches of that after you shoot, so you can pop out, shoot, and pop back out of LOS or even potentially straight-up range; lots of stuff with 24 inch weapons isn't going to be able to close back on their turn if you just backpedal.

Is it enough to justify taking them? I dunno. But it's a much bigger advantage than people here are giving it credit for.

I agree that the primary thing with Mek Gunz is that there's not really any gun that is efficient at taking them out. Splitting into multiple units combined with T5 and 5 wounds means the opponent will usually either waste shots by overkilling, or will end up underkilling some and having to deal with them again next turn.

I think the big thing that makes people think some Ork shooting is OP is the mentality that Orkz should only have awful shooting. So anything that would be below average for another Faction is seen as good, and anything that's just average (or slightly above average) is seen as broken.

I still think ES is a fine Kultur. But it really depends on what you're trying to do with your army. If you're just using them as mobile firing platforms, you'll probably be fine with DS.