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tneva82 wrote:
If you have other beasts of equal size you have other bosses in equal power to Ghaz. No more Ghaz being exceptional.

Not really. He could still be the Prophet of the WAAAAAAAAGH. I mean how many other Orks, regardless of size, have talked to Gork and Mork? Not many I'd imagine.

His size doesn't make him special, especially since he's not even the biggest Ork that's ever threatened the galaxy. It's his cunning and connection to the Ork gods that makes him special.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
If you have other beasts of equal size you have other bosses in equal power to Ghaz. No more Ghaz being exceptional.

Not really. He could still be the Prophet of the WAAAAAAAAGH. I mean how many other Orks, regardless of size, have talked to Gork and Mork? Not many I'd imagine.

His size doesn't make him special, especially since he's not even the biggest Ork that's ever threatened the galaxy. It's his cunning and connection to the Ork gods that makes him special.

This all day.

It’s Ghazzy’s intelligence that sets him apart, not his size.

There is also nothing stopping him being the biggest and baddest while having underlings of similar size beneath him. It would allow greater customisation and flexibility for our faction, something we desperately need.

I don't think that yet another foot melee character would provide that though

 ClockworkZion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
If you have other beasts of equal size you have other bosses in equal power to Ghaz. No more Ghaz being exceptional.

Not really. He could still be the Prophet of the WAAAAAAAAGH. I mean how many other Orks, regardless of size, have talked to Gork and Mork? Not many I'd imagine.

His size doesn't make him special, especially since he's not even the biggest Ork that's ever threatened the galaxy. It's his cunning and connection to the Ork gods that makes him special.

Ghaz might have some buff but in h2h prowess the others would be about same.

Ghaz has been described as unusually large and in ork terms that means unusually powerful. If he's suddenly equally sized with whole bunch there's suddenly whole lot of orks who could duel one on one with him.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think that yet another foot melee character would provide that though

I’d like a tough, melee beatstick unit personally. We don’t have one at present.

I hope they will give him his headbutt ability (extra attack after the power klaw ones)

I always thought Ghaz being in multiple places at once was due to lots of warp jumps in quick succession making time a bit wonky. Like that other warboss that killed his past self to get a second copy of his gun, but with the wherewithal to not immediately hunt down and kill himself.


I'd like to see Ghaz with a "come back after death" rule, to play up to the warp shenanigans. Like "when he is reduced to 0 wounds and removed from the board, at the end of your next movement phase, deepstrike him within 9" of where he died with 1d3+1 wounds remaining. You can only use this rule once per game". That would also get around the squishiness of having >10 wounds if we don't want him to be targetable.

gungo wrote:
We still have buzzgrob, snikrot, Maddoc, zagstrukk, zhardsark, Ghazghkull, the only oddboy we are missing is a warp head.

I wouldn’t rule out Morgok from being a dual kit w a big Mek model in the beast rises. But no ghaz is a solo character model.

Those named equivalents are locked by klans. Im on about generic kits that would make Boss versions of the current oddboys like there is in the fluff. Pretty sure Uggrim from Evil Sunz Rising is a Mek Boss when he was at Grukk's council of Mekbosses. They werent just regular Big Meks.

Mogrok was a head smaller than Uggrim in that book, which is a pretty big difference between two Big Meks. And even one of Uggrim's mates tells him to shrink a little as he is getting too much attention due to his size.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think that yet another foot melee character would provide that though

I’d like a tough, melee beatstick unit personally. We don’t have one at present.

We have the Warboss, Deff Dread, MANz, Gorkanaut though. I really don't see what a Beast-Boss would do that these don't, they would just be treading on each other's design space, making one or the other obsolete.

I suppose AAE means someone like ghaz (current rules) without being clan locked and without all the buffs. Basically a 8/9W character with an invuln so he isn't pasted at range and could conceivably survive facing off against a smash captain in CC.

One does not simply fights a smash captain and walk away though.
My other army has Typhus, Daemon Princes (2+/5++/4+++!) and Lords of Contagion which should be insanely survivable, but in reality die just as fast unless you get some insane invulnerable rolls though. The main difference to a warboss or deffkilla wartrike is the resilience to small army fire.

The issue you two are describing is that we are locked into the Killa Klaw because otherwise our HQs hit like a wet noodle, so we can't buy any of the relics which improve their resilience, while warlord traits are best reserved for characters which don't die after charging.
Meanwhile Thrakka has both the 4++ and the D3 klaw (and a 2+ armor save on top) without wasting relics or warlord traits, which makes him pretty awesome.

IMO the solution is not to introduce yet another melee character (making all the warbosses obsolete in the process), but fixing what we have - namely making all PKs deal d6 damage instead of d3 and up the killsaws to flat 3 instead of flat 2. This would help pretty much every single one of our melee units out of the hole they are currently sitting in.

 Jidmah wrote:
One does not simply fights a smash captain and walk away though.

Dat reference

 Jidmah wrote:
My other army has Typhus, Daemon Princes (2+/5++/4+++!) and Lords of Contagion which should be insanely survivable, but in reality die just as fast unless you get some insane invulnerable rolls though. The main difference to a warboss or deffkilla wartrike is the resilience to small army fire.

The issue you two are describing is that we are locked into the Killa Klaw because otherwise our HQs hit like a wet noodle, so we can't buy any of the relics which improve their resilience, while warlord traits are best reserved for characters which don't die after charging.
Meanwhile Thrakka has both the 4++ and the D3 klaw (and a 2+ armor save on top) without wasting relics or warlord traits, which makes him pretty awesome.

IMO the solution is not to introduce yet another melee character (making all the warbosses obsolete in the process), but fixing what we have - namely making all PKs deal d6 damage instead of d3 and up the killsaws to flat 3 instead of flat 2. This would help pretty much every single one of our melee units out of the hole they are currently sitting in.

This, 1000 times this. We need survivability and less swingy dmg output. I love how swingy is playing orks, but atm I ALMOST regret the old wonky table and such.

Eh, a T5 model with 9 wounds and a 5+ invuln would have a pretty decent chance to survive a smash captain I think (especially if you're willing to burn a CP)

But to be fair, I'm not clamoring for such a character I'm just guessing what I thought AAE meant. What I want, is a much better relic big choppa. It's an insult that 8 points separate da killa klaw and headwhoppas killchoppa. (Also, I assume no but if I charge someone with the killchoppa and have brutal but kunning on them, does the MWs dealt on a 6 get bumped to 3?)

The upgraded PKs and killsaws would be amazing, I've been clamoring for reduced cost on them as a way of creating parity but I'd much rather just have them hit harder

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think that yet another foot melee character would provide that though

I’d like a tough, melee beatstick unit personally. We don’t have one at present.

We have the Warboss, Deff Dread, MANz, Gorkanaut though. I really don't see what a Beast-Boss would do that these don't, they would just be treading on each other's design space, making one or the other obsolete.

I mean the warboss and MANZ are hardly tough. In fact I'd say the Warboss is pretty damn squishy. The Gorkanaut and Deff Dreads are both heavy support so don't help fill batts.

E - for me Warbosses are already redundant. We have cheaper and more versatile units for CP generation. We have Boss on Bike that serves as a quick (albeit fragile) beat stick. I'd like something that shows how tough Orks are supposed to be.

Last game I made the critical mistake of charging the Swarmlord with Zhadsnark (in my defence Swarmy had taken 3 wounds). Zhad did nothing. I mean nothing. Zilch. He was killed twice over by a fething Broodlord without the Swarmlord ever needing to fight. Meganobz wouldn't fare much better. We lack invuln saves outside of the KFF and it hurts us.

 Jidmah wrote:
One does not simply fights a smash captain and walk away though.
My other army has Typhus, Daemon Princes (2+/5++/4+++!) and Lords of Contagion which should be insanely survivable, but in reality die just as fast unless you get some insane invulnerable rolls though. The main difference to a warboss or deffkilla wartrike is the resilience to small army fire.

The issue you two are describing is that we are locked into the Killa Klaw because otherwise our HQs hit like a wet noodle, so we can't buy any of the relics which improve their resilience, while warlord traits are best reserved for characters which don't die after charging.
Meanwhile Thrakka has both the 4++ and the D3 klaw (and a 2+ armor save on top) without wasting relics or warlord traits, which makes him pretty awesome.

IMO the solution is not to introduce yet another melee character (making all the warbosses obsolete in the process), but fixing what we have - namely making all PKs deal d6 damage instead of d3 and up the killsaws to flat 3 instead of flat 2. This would help pretty much every single one of our melee units out of the hole they are currently sitting in.

then finally we would have a justification for our insanely high pts cost for our powerklaws and killsaws when every other powerfist/chainfist out there is lower pts cost than us.

Anyone with experience using the aura-trike?

Death skulls wartrike with "follow me lads" and the upper fixers. A pity he can't take kff.
All the army would charge after advancing and vehicles could be fixed 1d3 per turn.

A tad expensive and definitely not killy but decent supporting character.

for the record, the current ghaz isnt just a boss with prophet rule and killaklaw weapon.

He has T6 natively, 8W, and 5 attacks base. The regular warboss is T5/6W/4A

If (which i doubt) we get a Beast Boss generic, i'd expect that statline for him and the new Ghaz to be stronger still, possibly T7.

i highly doubt it will happen. And really all it would offer is a deffdread-like profile that has a 2+ save, slight chance for an invul, and is character protected. But also most likely wouldnt have access to anything other than a kombi weapon so....not really that useful.

It would be fun to have a badass, generic Ghazzy like boss that wasn't legend and wasn't just totally meh.

The main issue of warbosses is a relic only decent weapon (da Killa klaw and a lesser extent the relic Big Choppa) and just gakky # of attacks.

And the only real way of increasing their attacks is making them the warlord (no go for a unit with a 4+ save that is going to die after charging), psychic powers (fine, but the good one for characters is bottom priority before Warpath and Da Jump, so not as likely to be taken).

If warbosses could easily shoot up to 8 or 9 attacks like I've seen SM captains do, they would at least be something the opponent has to respect.

Thats one reason why im hoping for a meat-blender relic weapon. S+1, AP2, 1D with wounds of a 6 being 2, "the user adds 2D6 attacks when using this weapon" or something like that.
It bothers me that space marines captains have more attacks than a warboss and are still hitting just as hard while also being much harder to remove. Nobody w/o a special relic that adds a ton of low strength attacks, khorne, tyranids, or orks should have 8+ attacks....and for some reason orks actually DONT have that anywhere outside of a 310pt model.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Last game I made the critical mistake of charging the Swarmlord with Zhadsnark (in my defence Swarmy had taken 3 wounds). Zhad did nothing. I mean nothing. Zilch. He was killed twice over by a fething Broodlord without the Swarmlord ever needing to fight. Meganobz wouldn't fare much better. We lack invuln saves outside of the KFF and it hurts us.

I don't believe it hurts orks as much as you'd think. I play DG and all my characters have at least a 3+ save. T5, 4++ or 5++ and DR on top. They should be extremely durable compared to ork characters on paper, but in reality this only really makes a difference when getting targeted by snipers.
A warboss on bike doesn't really die any faster than a DG DP, despite the prince sporting a 2+ armor, 5++ invulnerable and a 5+ FNP. What usually kills him is some big anti-tank gun, autocannons and/or plasma pointed at him after his screen has been gunned down. Despite costing almost twice as much as a warboss, the DG DP will be just as dead as the warboss if a unit of shining spears wants it so. People make sure these kinds of characters die when they can, and all these extra layers of defense just slow down the inevitable, plus they aren't guaranteed to work at all. 5++/5+++ simply doesn't save you when a smash captain (or equivalent) rolls up and hits you 5 times after you've been softened up with some shooting.
Yes, I've had the odd game where Typhus saved six melta shots in a row, but usually if he gets in combat with something like a Broodlord or a smash captain he gets splatted just like any ork character would.

I've also been running the snazztrike a couple of times now, as I'm running the kult detachment anyways for my bikers, but it didn't really do anything.
While I miss the old 5++ cybork, I'm not too sure that I'd pay 10 points for those these days - a 5++ save on a 2+ models is meaningless more often than not anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
Anyone with experience using the aura-trike?

Death skulls wartrike with "follow me lads" and the upper fixers. A pity he can't take kff.
All the army would charge after advancing and vehicles could be fixed 1d3 per turn.

A tad expensive and definitely not killy but decent supporting character.

Fixer uppers haven't worked for me, as ork vehicles tend to be very binary unharmed or dead. I also don't see a reason to give him follow me lads, as any infantry that walks across the board can be accompanied by a much more cost-efficient warboss instead.
In my experience, the trike is best used to allow warbikers to charge T1 and then drive about either providing vehicles with the aura to do surprise charges or hit stuff with the melta(which is ok-ish for deathskulls) and running down stragglers in melee or assassinating support characters like librarians, warlocks or sergeants. The longer he stays alive, the more stuff he can shoot, the more likely he is going to make his points back. When the board has cleared, having a fast and durable character also can also help you with winning the mission or turning off/killing enemy shooting which is no longer protected by bubble wrap.
I might try giving him the deff skullz warlord trait to shoot the killa jet and shotguns at characters, but the low range on his guns has discouraged me from even trying.

 Jidmah wrote:
One does not simply fights a smash captain and walk away though.
My other army has Typhus, Daemon Princes (2+/5++/4+++!) and Lords of Contagion which should be insanely survivable, but in reality die just as fast unless you get some insane invulnerable rolls though. The main difference to a warboss or deffkilla wartrike is the resilience to small army fire.

The issue you two are describing is that we are locked into the Killa Klaw because otherwise our HQs hit like a wet noodle, so we can't buy any of the relics which improve their resilience, while warlord traits are best reserved for characters which don't die after charging.
Meanwhile Thrakka has both the 4++ and the D3 klaw (and a 2+ armor save on top) without wasting relics or warlord traits, which makes him pretty awesome.

IMO the solution is not to introduce yet another melee character (making all the warbosses obsolete in the process), but fixing what we have - namely making all PKs deal d6 damage instead of d3 and up the killsaws to flat 3 instead of flat 2. This would help pretty much every single one of our melee units out of the hole they are currently sitting in.

I think that his point is that the warboss is supposed to be the meanest toughest ork in your army (not counting Thrakka), but a T5 4+ 6w model just isn't that in 8E. They are a footslogging glass-knife unless they take the Killa Klaw. I think that the warboss needs a 5++ or something to make them tougher.

And I'd still rather have PK's be 1+d3 or 2d3 damage instead of 1d6 since it would be less swingy.

Although it might make them survive much longer, at least it would give them a *chance*. I like rolling dice. Having only a 4+ armour save is just depressing on what should be the most badass model in my army.

As an aside: something seems to be dropping March 9th, according to the community site.

"The Wolf vs the Beast".

The warboss has never been anything else though - all orks have always been bullies that excel at utterly destroying things that can't fight back. Charging a warboss into something like a space marine captain has been a death sentence all the way back to 4th edition. Winning duels against equally powerful opponents has never been part of the ork identity, quite the opposite.
What we are currently lacking is the "utterly destroying things" part. Warbosses used to flip landraiders on their head, nowadays they struggle to scratch the paint on a rhino.

 Jidmah wrote:
The warboss has never been anything else though - all orks have always been bullies that excel at utterly destroying things that can't fight back. Charging a warboss into something like a space marine captain has been a death sentence all the way back to 4th edition. Winning duels against equally powerful opponents has never been part of the ork identity, quite the opposite.
What we are currently lacking is the "utterly destroying things" part. Warbosses used to flip landraiders on their head, nowadays they struggle to scratch the paint on a rhino.

Fair enough. What do you think would fix this though? More attacks for the warboss or making PK's more powerful?

Even being able to take a killsaw would help with consistency.

But it's largely # of attacks. If Warbosses were base 6 attacks, buffable to 8 or 9 with psychic, even the PK might be something to respect. Base 4 is a joke. Assuming the PK only, hitting on 3s, he's what... maybe 2, 2.25 wounds total?

issue with giving the boss enough attacks to once again be a major threat to vehicles is he can suddenly clear numbers too.

If were talking about bringing him back to "vehicle die because i looked at it" but otherwise kinda crap status, he should have a special rule where if hes hitting a vehicle (or monster?) he becomes massively stronger.

Which tbh im surprised the klaw in general (since its more expensive than fists) doesnt have some bonus against vehicles by default. Like 2D3 damage against vehicles, D3 against everything else. Why? Can opener fingers.

Yeah, I agree with Jid. Leave the Invulns and stuff for the Marines. For me, Orkz are defined by two things: good CC and good Toughness. We're kinda lacking in both right now.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
issue with giving the boss enough attacks to once again be a major threat to vehicles is he can suddenly clear numbers too.

If were talking about bringing him back to "vehicle die because i looked at it" but otherwise kinda crap status, he should have a special rule where if hes hitting a vehicle (or monster?) he becomes massively stronger.

Which tbh im surprised the klaw in general (since its more expensive than fists) doesnt have some bonus against vehicles by default. Like 2D3 damage against vehicles, D3 against everything else. Why? Can opener fingers.

From all the old lore and the books about Orkz Warbosses, they SHOULD mince anything smaller than them, be it a Captain, Autarch, Archon or Overlord IF they hit. Just look at Grukk's story or the Warboss using a dead horse to clobber Valhallans in the 5th ed rulebook. Look back at Gorgutz when he sync killed a marine, there is no finesse... Its pure savagery, mashing the marine into the ground then batting him away like a discarded toy!

Warbosses SHOULD have more attacks than Captains, and they SHOULD have the power behind the swings, they have always had more attacks than marine counterparts, but the lack of charging giving extra attacks and marines getting Shock Assault makes the Warboss look tame, 8th as a whole has weakened the stature and prowess of the feared Warboss as Jidmah stated. Orkz across the whole range need an increase in shooting and melee attacks.... When people go Orkz drown you in dice, I dont see it! Marines get more shots and attacks. The only unit that throws buckets of dice for shooting is Warbikers but they cost more than 80% of bike units out there in 8th and have no durability.

How I would improve the Warboss is changing the power klaw (if it costs more than a powerfist it shouldnt be the same as a god damn powerfist). Give it bigger damage, or an extra attack when you use it. Or we add the old Choppa rule from Fantasy and tweak it alittle. If marines can get the Assault doctrine why not give us a way to get us AP on the charge. Orkz NEED to be TOUGH again, they dont need armour or invuns, but rather a fight after death mechanic (like SoB) or a Graia death save that scales with each type of Ork... 6 for a Boy, 5+ for a Nob and a 4+ for Bosses.

You can cut an Ork in half and he would still be crawling at you, lop off an arm it'll make him more mad, blast a bolt round into his head and he'll do a Ghaz. But in this edition Orkz arent tough, Nobz arent scary, and a Warboss isnt feared like the old times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ive had Warbosses bounce off Canoness, Archons, Autarchs, (non smash) Captains whilst the Warboss costs more... It happens way more than it should as well. Its pretty sad really.

tulun wrote:
Even being able to take a killsaw would help with consistency.

But it's largely # of attacks. If Warbosses were base 6 attacks, buffable to 8 or 9 with psychic, even the PK might be something to respect. Base 4 is a joke. Assuming the PK only, hitting on 3s, he's what... maybe 2, 2.25 wounds total?

Yeah, 4 is really bad, especially since all the marines have gotten their +1A during the first round of combat. 5(+attack squig) seems more like what a warboss should be capable of, especially since that git on the wartrike already has 5.

In general, I think d6 is a good idea for PKs precisely because it's random. A single PK nob or pain boy shouldn't be able to consistently gib enemy characters or take huge chunks out of vehicles. He can roll high though and become a threat to either, which is very much how they used to work in previous editions. In addition, when you have lots of PK attacks going through, like when a warboss attacks or in nob and MAN squads, multiple d6 become consistent at crushing units with high wound counts, while staying unreliable against elite infantry.

This way, the upgrade to a killsaw (as TH equivalent) remains meaningful, as this would be the true all-round weapon, which is good against everything.

all valid comments. Especially since the captain has a reason to NOT charge in, a warboss should kick a captain's butt. Non-smashcaptain is pretty much exact in cost vs a boss and would still beat a boss with ease. Warboss does nothing until the fighting begins. Theres a 6pt difference between a captain w/ fist and a boss w/ pk, and somehow that 6pt difference is -1T + reroll1 to hit aura + 4up invul + all those fancy Angel of Death rules. T4/5 difference means almost nothing for a character.

i havnt even used a warboss in my lists for almost a year because theyre so pathetic atm. In fact i feel hampered when i DO use one.
And yeah i was a bit pissed about the whole marines getting +1 attack rule. Theres very little difference in terms of threat vs cost between marines and orks atm, but a huge durability difference.