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- In the first war of armageddon, orks were not involved.
- Yarrik is not carrying Thrakka's klaw.
- Thrakka won against Yarrik at Hive Hades, it's just that Yarrik defended it long enough for the Imperial Fleet to arrive and eventually end the second war of armageddon.
While the Imperium declares the third war of armageddon as won, there is still fighting on the surface, with neither side gaining any ground.
- Everything related to Thrakka being a primark is not canon -even his current model doesn't compare in size to either Overlord Urrlak Urruk("said to be twice the height of the imperator himself") or The Beast ("10 meters tall"), nor the prime-orks ("size of a small gargant") serving it.
- Ragnar Blackmane is not random at all, he is the chapter champion of the Space Wolves, so the best fighter in a chapter of fighters. He also has already killed two other warbosses leading waaaghs, so he kind of knows what he is doing.
- Orks surviving decapitation is common and well-known fluff that can be found in multiple codices.

If you complain about the fluff, at least do it properly :p


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gungo wrote:
And you made up a bunch of stuff on how a 1 armed man decapitated ghaz as no where what you wrote existed again a regular non primarus non primarch non custodes non chapter master space marine took out the most powerful ork since the heresy... I stand by assessment of the Mary Sue marines and the atrocious lore of using ghaz at a catalyst for nonsense writing.

Thrakka is by far not the most powerful ork since the heresy. He might be in the top 100. Seriously, you have absolutely no right to complain about new fluff if you don't even know what has be established for almost a decade.

Thraka is just the most well known big bad boss because of how massive his Waaagh! was. He himself is still nowhere near the biggest.

Im unaware if any of the larger ork bosses are still alive but as Jidmah stated there have been absolutely ginormous orks.
I mean, technically Tuska Daemonkilla is alive but hes kinda...busy...

The Beast came after the Heresy, and that dude was able to go toe to toe with a Primarch and match him. As much as I love Ghaz, I'm pretty sure Vulkan would kick his gak in if they got into a one on one fight.

Ghaz is the most powerful Ork *now*. Both in influence and in strength, but he doesn't even come close to The Beast in either of these aspects (the guy is one of the few beings to actually seige Terra).

I think we can still agree that Ragnar, even as a big beefboi marine, should really have gotten his ass handed to him by Thraka.

Now, I have not read the newest Psychic Awakening or anything, so if there's mitigating factors, let me know. Thraka singlehandedly thrashing a hundred marines solo before going toe-to-toe with Ragnar, for instance.

As usual for Marines when they take on something that should utterly destroy them, I'm gonna assume that the "victory" was due to dumb luck and "strength of will".

Yea Ragnar is far from a no name, especially given he started out as a reproduction of Leman Russ' old model. He's always had some heavy presence in fluff thanks to that. As far as how the fluff of this was handled, I think it's coming across as rather spontaneous because GW was in the position of being unable to properly build it up.

For proper tension and excitement, we should have heard about Ragnar going off to kill Ghaz ages ago (actually we may have? I've not read any of his BL series - but even if we did, core source material like the SW or Ork codexes would have been better places for it). Or even about Ragnar managing to cut off Ghaz's head and nearly dying. But that second scenario, while being better for raising the stakes for this rematch, leaves two characters with models GW was still supporting being "dead" but still being used in games for more than a year.

 flandarz wrote:
The Beast came after the Heresy, and that dude was able to go toe to toe with a Primarch and match him. As much as I love Ghaz, I'm pretty sure Vulkan would kick his gak in if they got into a one on one fight.

Ghaz is the most powerful Ork *now*. Both in influence and in strength, but he doesn't even come close to The Beast in either of these aspects (the guy is one of the few beings to actually seige Terra).

When I stated heresy I meant the period immediately after where the beast and other primeorks existed....

I do not recall any other ork since the original primeorks which were larger then ghaz is currently... if someone has an example of one please share...
But the fact is Ragnar shouldn’t have come close to killing ghaz in a duel...

It's important to remember that, in the fluff, Space Marines (and the Imperium at large) are the protagonists. They're gonna enjoy certain privileges because of it, such as unlikely victories, because it "tells a better story". Not much to do but accept it, but you can take solace in the fact that not even a decapitation can stop Ghaz. Dude could probably survive an Exterminatus and go on to build his forces back up elsewhere.

gungo wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

gungo wrote:
Let’s talk about the travesty that is the lore of this release.
Ghaz is a normal ork shot in the head and loses half his skull....
Gortsnik fixes his head and ghaz becomes a prophet
Ghaz goes to armeggedon and loses to a stale mate twice
First time he loses his klaw to yarrik after yarrik loses his hand in a stale mate
Grotznik fixes him up again
Second war for Armageddon ghaz is now the defacto warbles of all orks and gathers the largest wagghh ever captures yarrik and lets him live because he is the only human worth the fight

In comes the horrid 8th edition writing
Ghaz is basically a prime ork now
Ghaz get beat up and decapitated by random named non primarus space marine in some random small battle
Ghaz cuts off his arm again but somehow loses his head to the 1 armed man!
By luck some grot finds his head and grotznik fixes him up again!

The most powerful prime ork since the heresy is beaten by a 1 armed random space marine? Seriously?
Shoot him with a volcano cannon from a war hound titan or stormlord or an entire strike team of primarus lead by Dante or a real primarus marine... anything but this sad nonsense.

All I can say is game wise grotznik needs to have a 4+ fnp aura the dude is fekkin klutch all the time with his saves!

I get that SM get all the lore favouritism usually from GW, but a lot of what you stated was wrong.

Ghaz has only been to Armageddon twice, I don't know what two stale mates you're talking about, but he lost the 2nd War for Armageddon after Yarrick stalled him long enough at Hades Hive. For the Third War for Armageddon, that was the only stalemate and that's partially because Ghaz got bored and left. Ghaz never lost his klaw to Yarrick, you're thinking of a different Ork Warboss that Yarrick decapitated, when Ghazzy found Yarrick he completely destroyed him and he only clung to life due to his iron will.

Ghaz got his head cut off by a named guy called Ragnar Blackmane, as much as I don't like SW, he's effectively the SW version of Cato Sicarius and is pretty much the shoe-in for the next Chapter Master of the SW. And given how much plot armour SW have, it's actually something to know it was a mutual KO. Chances are Blackmane went for a Haily Mary attack that got through the same time Ghaz managed to close his klaw around his arm that swung the blade, so his head came off while Blackmane's arm did. So it's not like he did it one-armed most likely.

Also, Ghaz is said to effectively be on the way to be a Prime-Ork, not that he already is. I wouldn't take it personally either, because this being 40K, named characters are almost effectively invulnerable to stuff like Exterminatus, Super-Heavy weapons and the like. Think about it. Even Jarran Kell, Creed's bodyguard, didn't die from a bolter round or super-weapon, he got personally killed by Abbadon the Despoiler. If you're a named character with a model, you generally either don't die (like this for example), or you die from a named character.

I only claimed he stalemated in armeggedon twice... both times the waaagh was stalled... maybe I was wrong on yarricks klaw However ghaz kept yarrick alive because he respected yarricks fighting.

And you made up a bunch of stuff on how a 1 armed man decapitated ghaz as no where what you wrote existed again a regular non primarus non primarch non custodes non chapter master space marine took out the most powerful ork since the heresy... I stand by assessment of the Mary Sue marines and the atrocious lore of using ghaz at a catalyst for nonsense writing.

But he didn't stalemate on Armageddon twice, he lost the the 2nd War for Armageddon (it wasn't really stalled except for Hades Hive, he lost the overall war and remember the First War for Armageddon didn't have Orks involved, it was Angron and his buddies vs Imperials), and so far the 3rd one is ongoing. I don't see how Ghaz keeping Yarrick alive is really relevant to your complaints, it just shows how much more of a threat Ghaz has become over time.

Don't get me wrong, personally I would have LOVED to see Ghaz just break Ragnar over his knee like he did with Belial and go even further and perma-kill him, but unsurprisingly that's bad PR, especially for a new model release that is SM-oriented. So instead of the usual cop-out of the duel causing one side to flee before its over, I liked that there was mutual destruction so you can at least say they technically killed one another, had there not been Apothecaries/Painboys available.

Also, if you're all up in arms about Ghazzy dying to someone below him, keep in mind this isn't exactly like DBZ where only people at certain power levels can kill one another. Guilliman, a Primarch, almost died to regular Alpha Legionaries catching him off guard and pumping him full of bolter rounds when he was unarmoured. Similarly, you have someone like Dante being able to take down Skarbrand singlehandedly, or Straken literally strangling the life out of a Chaos Lord. There's always going to be underdog stories and that's part of the fun. Of course there's a general higher likelihood of things happening, (i.e. we won't hear of Makari killing the Emperor anytime soon) but it's not like there isn't precedent for this happening in the lore.

Ghaz was probably tired out after a particularly loud ‘Waaaaaaargh’.

That or ploughing through 100 Marines first.

So he wasn’t dead, just restin’.

It doesn't matter how you try and justify it - Ghaz' is the top Ork around in he current setting. He is equivalent to a Primarch for us. Him losing (likely twice?!) to Ragnar who isn't even the top wolfy wolf wolf is disappointing, though not particularly surprising.

So basically GW have misled us with this Beast thing. Because a beast should be able to compete with a Primarch. That's the level it raises a boss to in the lore. If Ghazzy loses to a Wolf Lord twice, well, he ain't no beast.

Edit - Ghazzy looks to be rapidly moving towards the Daemon Primarch role in the lore (acts as a means to show how awesome the good guys are). Now they've justified him effectively coming back from death he will never be a credible threat again. Shame.

The problem here is twofold:
1) Thrakka isn't actually a prime-ork yet. He might be on par with Calgar, Helbrecht or Kharn, but any of the Daemon Primarchs, as well as many of the loyal ones would outright slay him in direct combat.
2) Ragnar is very much one of the best fighters among all of the space marines, has multiple novels featuring him and is a rising star among the Space Wolves.
Ragnar and Thrakka are very much evenly matched opponents, both in power, experience and in importance to their corresponding faction.


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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
It doesn't matter how you try and justify it - Ghaz' is the top Ork around in he current setting. He is equivalent to a Primarch for us. Him losing (likely twice?!) to Ragnar who isn't even the top wolfy wolf wolf is disappointing, though not particularly surprising.

So basically GW have misled us with this Beast thing. Because a beast should be able to compete with a Primarch. That's the level it raises a boss to in the lore. If Ghazzy loses to a Wolf Lord twice, well, he ain't no beast.

Edit - Ghazzy looks to be rapidly moving towards the Daemon Primarch role in the lore (acts as a means to show how awesome the good guys are). Now they've justified him effectively coming back from death he will never be a credible threat again. Shame.

I heavily suggest reading up the lore on The Beast and his Prime-Orks. Thrakka is nowhere near that.

In a duel with Mortarion, Angron or Fulgrim, Thrakka would be slain in seconds, with no chance of bolting something back on to fix him.

 office_waaagh wrote:
Since apparently they let the lore writers tell the miniatures designers "make a bigger Ghaz, except he's had his head chopped off and reattached."

Or maybe mini designer thought that was cool and fluffwriters had to come up with fluff to support it?

 Jidmah wrote:
The problem here is twofold:
1) Thrakka isn't actually a prime-ork yet. He might be on par with Calgar, Helbrecht or Kharn, but any of the Daemon Primarchs, as well as many of the loyal ones would outright slay him in direct combat.
2) Ragnar is very much one of the best fighters among all of the space marines, has multiple novels featuring him and is a rising star among the Space Wolves.
Ragnar and Thrakka are very much evenly matched opponents, both in power, experience and in importance to their corresponding faction.

I'll respond to 1) below but on Ragnar and Ghaz' being evenly matched opponents in terms of importance to their corresponding faction I think you're mistaken.

Ghaz is the biggest, baddest ORK (faction, not subfaction). Ragnar isn't even the biggest, baddest SPACE WOLF (sub-faction of Marines). This is a huge disparity. Ghaz is as close to a Primarch as we have. He got decapitated by a not-even-chapter master-chump. It's poor form.

I heavily suggest reading up the lore on The Beast and his Prime-Orks. Thrakka is nowhere near that.

In a duel with Mortarion, Angron or Fulgrim, Thrakka would be slain in seconds, with no chance of bolting something back on to fix him.

I have read/listened to the entire Beast Arises series thanks Jidmah.

If GW didn't want us to associate Ghaz' with a Primork, they probably shouldn't have continually marketed his new model as 'The Beast' should they? They knew the implications. You say 'Ghaz is nowhere Beast level' as if it was obvious and GW hadn't continually marketed him as such.

Thrakka has been know as "The Beast of Armageddon" long before the first Beast Arises novel. Considering he is on the other side of the galaxy now, they just dropped the "of Armageddon" part.
If you have read the books, you should know that even the smallest of the prime-orks were described as the size of small gargants, which is about the size of a stompa. In the empire of the beast, Thrakka would have been no more than a member of the elite guard serving under the prime-orks, and there were ten thousands of those.

"As close to a primarch to a Primarch as we have" isn't really saying anything. We don't have a primach, just like Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, Adeptus Sororitas, Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicum don't have a primarch.
Thrakka is our Eldrad, Shadowsun, Immotekh, Swarmlord, Celestine, Creed or Cawl.
Which, in marine terms, would make him Calgar, Ahriman or Typhus, not Gulliman, Magnus or Mortarion.

Ragnar is the Chapter Champion of the Space Wolves. Which means nothing less than that he is indeed the "biggest, baddest Space Wolf" around. Logan (the chapter master) explicitly had him called to handle Thrakka and Ragnar is considered to be the next chapter master, should Logan step down or die.

IMO this is just the wish of having a true primarch mixed with not knowing any of Ragnar's fluff. Which, to be fair, I didn't either until a couple of days ago. But after reading his entire background, I'm fairly certain that he is not a "random nobody" or "weak captain" some people make him out to be.

Love the discussion about the lore about who is tha biggest and da baddest.

But what do you guys think Ghazzy will cost us? Provided he is not sold in a friggin boxed set ofc. I'd love to get him but not really keen on getting even more nobs and megas.

The problem I see here is the same as with every other codex and I want to point out how hard is for gw to be creative in their lore.

At this moment in time, we have a lot of lore. A LOT. We have been going in a circle from the same cliffhangers since the beginning of 40k (if I am wrong please do illuminate me). Anything you write is gonna alter this balanced cliffhanger in a way which will provoke rage or awkwardness one way or another.

So now what do you do? Do you push the doomsday clock closer to midnight and start to kill outright armies and named characters? How would you like that?
Or do you do baby steps and make a reinterpretation of the lore with some minor silky explanation?

GW has been betting on the latter ever since and, at least economically, has been paying off big time.

Gruxz wrote:
Love the discussion about the lore about who is tha biggest and da baddest.

But what do you guys think Ghazzy will cost us? Provided he is not sold in a friggin boxed set ofc. I'd love to get him but not really keen on getting even more nobs and megas.

Probably €50 like Abaddon when he becomes available separately. Ragnar will probably be €30-40.

Im gonna guess £50 for Ghaz if he is a standalone kit with Makari and not locked into a box set with the Wolves. Im basing that price of a Redemptor Dread and then adding character price inflation. If it is a box set, the Nobs and Meganobs alone is £55.50 then Infiltrators are £35 so thats already £90 without discounts. If Ragnar is priced like Mephiston and Lazarus thats £25, so we are now at £115.

Blood of the Phoenix was £140 and each kit individually came to a combined price of £222.50 which is around a 63% saving but still a super expensive boxset when it was released.

Whilst this boxset may have less models I would Imagine it would be around £120-30 at retail.

If Ghaz is priced more like Guilliman/Abaddon at £37.50 or Cawl/Celestine/Calgar at £32.50 then maybe the boxset will be around £110.

Just my estimates off of the previously costed PA set, which had more models and was genuinely received as overpriced.

The real question is "when" is gonna be released.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/10/the-rumour-engine-march-10th-2020/

Orks in the rumor engine?!

That new rumor engine looks like a big choppa to me. Could it be that the new big mek with kff model gets a big choppa? I can't imagine we get another new ork model. And bm with kff looks like the only logical new release to me. Or they make a new nob set with a kff in the sprues, that would actually make sense to get ork peeps to buy the boxed set instead of waiting for the solo release... those sneaky gw gitz!


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And yeah €50/60- sounds about right. I'd buy that. Above that would be a real headscratcher or the rules would be amaaazing.

My ork-style pantaloons just got tight at the thought of more ork releases in the near future

 Emicrania wrote:
The real question is "when" is gonna be released.

My guess is the 21st of March for the Preorder, unless we are back to October when we dont actually get anything until November haha! Which would be annoying! Like im hyped but not as hyped as when the first Ghaz teaser video was shown. I have a doubles tournament at Wwarhammer World in May and I was hoping to get the book early March time not closer to April haha...

 Jidmah wrote:
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gungo wrote:
And you made up a bunch of stuff on how a 1 armed man decapitated ghaz as no where what you wrote existed again a regular non primarus non primarch non custodes non chapter master space marine took out the most powerful ork since the heresy... I stand by assessment of the Mary Sue marines and the atrocious lore of using ghaz at a catalyst for nonsense writing.

Thrakka is by far not the most powerful ork since the heresy. He might be in the top 100. Seriously, you have absolutely no right to complain about new fluff if you don't even know what has be established for almost a decade.

Feel free to provide an example of a bigger more powerful ork then ghaz that existed after the beast arises timeline...

Multiple times GW has stated ghaz waaagh is the largest since that time period. And ork warbosses size is proportional to the size of thier waaagh energy.

My issue with this shoddy lore isn’t the fact Ragnar is one of the better space wolf fighters it’s the fact a single generic NON-primarus space marine was able to defeat ghaz... who is currently larger then a deffdread. It’s a disgrace they made the most powerful ork a basic marine punching bag. But hey at least random named non primarus space marine didn’t completely wipe out the most powerful ork. It’s just lore but it’s still disappointing.


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Gruxz wrote:
That new rumor engine looks like a big choppa to me. Could it be that the new big mek with kff model gets a big choppa? I can't imagine we get another new ork model. And bm with kff looks like the only logical new release to me. Or they make a new nob set with a kff in the sprues, that would actually make sense to get ork peeps to buy the boxed set instead of waiting for the solo release... those sneaky gw gitz!


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And yeah €50/60- sounds about right. I'd buy that. Above that would be a real headscratcher or the rules would be amaaazing.

The ghaz picture looks very much like a box set promotional picture and I’m hopeful we are getting a BM in this release as well. I don’t think we are getting much else since only ghaz was no longer available online... so my hopes for an upgraded tabkbusta/kommando dual kit is unlikely

That rumor engine is 100% the "small end" of a bigchoppa. We already have some that are similar to that...or at least i think we do. I know ive seen almost that exact bit before.

It probably is the KFF mek. They would have revealed Bullyboyz with Ghaz if they were a thing, and correct me if im wrong but arent they just larger Meganobz anyway so they'd have PK's?

I think the only reason Ghaz sold out on the webstore was because people wanted one of the old ones before they were gone for good.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/10/the-rumour-engine-march-10th-2020/

Orks in the rumor engine?!

Could be - the bandaged stick is something orks use quite regularly, and the weapon looks like a mix of a killsaw and a choppa. It's too small for a big choppas, but it looks like a weapon I could envision being held by some sort of mek orks.


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gungo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Thrakka is by far not the most powerful ork since the heresy. He might be in the top 100. Seriously, you have absolutely no right to complain about new fluff if you don't even know what has be established for almost a decade.

Feel free to provide an example of a bigger more powerful ork then ghaz that existed after the beast arises timeline...

Way to move the goalpost by two millennia

And ork warbosses size is proportional to the size of thier waaagh energy.

Citation needed.

My issue with this shoddy lore isn’t the fact Ragnar is one of the better space wolf fighters it’s the fact a single generic NON-primarus space marine was able to defeat ghaz...

Look, he is not "one of the better space wolf fighters". He is the best space wolf fighter alive, including their chapter master, wolf lords, and all those primaris guys who have been in the fridge for most of the last century. That's what a Chapter Champion is.
And it's pretty likely that many other chapters who don't rely on close combat don't have someone that could go toe to toe with him.

who is currently larger then a deffdread. It’s a disgrace they made the most powerful ork a basic marine punching bag. But hey at least random named non primarus space marine didn’t completely wipe out the most powerful ork. It’s just lore but it’s still disappointing.

The friggin' killed each other, twice. Which means they are equally matched. You seem to be under the odd impression that anything which doesn't end with the utter destruction of the ork's opponents counts as a loss for the orks.


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 Haasbioroid wrote:


I think the only reason Ghaz sold out on the webstore was because people wanted one of the old ones before they were gone for good.

Well, the joke is on them, Failcast Thrakka is a horrible model.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/10/the-rumour-engine-march-10th-2020/

Orks in the rumor engine?!

Could be - the bandaged stick is something orks use quite regularly, and the weapon looks like a mix of a killsaw and a choppa. It's too small for a big choppas, but it looks like a weapon I could envision being held by some sort of mek orks.

It looks like the Dread Saw off the Deff Dread kit taped to the end of a stick.

THATS what it was. I knew ive seen that bit somewhere.
The blade looks way smaller too so im still saying its a bigmek bit now.