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I don't get the point of anyone defending lore behind this. It IS trash simply because compared to how much of a backstory Ghaz has with Yarrik or Helbrecht...

Getting his head chopped by someone else entirely is just disrescpect to the lore. Not to mention, that resurrecting characters makes it seem like there are no consequences for losing.

Model is gorgeous, but don't defend lazy lore writing.

 Jidmah wrote:

I agree, but that's still some time to go. Thrakka first appeared "in the late 41st century" and the events of PA end around 111.41k. So he is probably 200-300 years old.

It can be as slow or as quick a process as GW want it to be.

I doubt that they would want to make Thrakka primarch tier. Those are incredibly hard to design, as demonstrated by the three that do have models. Meanwhile, they had a perfectly fine concept for Thrakka that just needed some polishing.
In my opinion Abbaddon/Calgar tier is a much better place to be game wise.

I don't agree I'm afraid. Ghaz is almost certainly going to be a [MONSTER] like Guilliman' so his stats should better reflect that.
That said, I'm not talking about in game - I'm talking about lore.

1. It makes the Ork threat look utterly inconsequential (why doesn't Guilliman just pop over there and splat Ghaz? Or Magnus? Or Morty? They can't even stand in the same ring)

Why would they? If anything, Mortarion and Magnus would be cheering him on from the sidelines while he crushes Terra. The only reason Mortarion got off his ass in the eye of chaos at all is because he wants to kill Gulliman.
And Gulliman is kind of busy with keeping the Imperium from collapsing on itself. The Great Waaagh! is probably not on his top priority, considering all the other things going on - including Waaagh! Wazzdakka headed directly for Terra.
On top of that, killing Thrakka is pretty much a suicide mission, as demonstrated by Ragnar.

I left my bit in here because presumably you accept that it makes the Ork threat seem utterly inconsequential? This is gak, to me.
Ragnar demonstrated that it's a suicide mission for a non-Primaris captain only. Round two may well show it to be trivial.

Only Chaos and the Imperium do have Primarchs though.

You're missing the point.

Size isn't everything?
They really just increased his size to how large he is in the fluff. I can't find the piece right now, but there is an ancient art with an Armageddon steel legion soldier pointing at Thrakka, who has a mega-armoured nob standing next to him who barely reaches up to his chest.

I know the work. Presumably that was during a war for Armageddon, so Ghaz' should be bigger now?
Also again - he's as big as GW decide he is.

Leman Russ isn't "around".

Jid you're really arguing in bad faith here.
Answer me a few questions -
Is Leman Russ dead?
Is it possible Leman Russ could return?
Would Leman Russ be a better fighter than Ragnar?
Would Ghaz' be able to do anything against Leman Russ?

What I'm trying to tell you, is that Logan is only above Ragnar in rank. Logan himself says that he would struggle to hold his own against him, so Thrakka is fighting someone who has better combat skills than Logan. Ragnar is pretty sure to be chapter master master eventually.

Listen we all know how the GW power system works - Logan is boss (and BEAT MAGNUS if I'm not mistaken?!) of the Space Wolves so he's the toughest Space Wolf going. 'Id struggle to hold my own against Ragnar' is nothing like 'Ragnar has better combat skills than me'. He doesn't, unless you can cite this?

The whole point is that Ragnar could not have survived his injuries if there wasn't the whole "get a new primaris body" thing.
They killed each other. And they both got better.

No the point is that the information inked that Ghaz' was more incapacitated than Ragnar, which is why it's his loss.

Obviously you think this state of affairs is fine and that's OK. You don't need to rub on everyone that disagrees with you though. Ragnar should not best Ghaz' in my opinion. There's a fair few Ork and not Ork players that agree. He's not the top Marine in the setting while Ghaz' is the top Ork. It's equivalent to fething Krillin beating Freeza or, in our setting, Huron Blackheart beating Guilliman', or Calgar beating Abaddon/Mortarion/Magnus. It is rubbish, lazy writing in my opinion and it shows that the Ork threat is actually a joke.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Is Leman Russ dead?

As dead as all important characters that might have died off-screen

Is it possible Leman Russ could return?
Would Leman Russ be a better fighter than Ragnar?

Obviously.

Would Ghaz' be able to do anything against Leman Russ?

Absolutely not. Horus slaughtered Overlord Urrlak Urruk (the warboss who almost killed the emperor) and his entire honor guard by himself, broke his back and tossed him of a tower. Leman Russ is a stronger combatant than Horus was and might have been warp-wolfed on top of that. Meanwhile, Thrakka is nowhere near Urrlak Urruk. If you would want Thrakka be dead-dead or running away like a coward, Leman Russ would be exactly the right opponent for him.

Listen we all know how the GW power system works - Logan is boss (and BEAT MAGNUS if I'm not mistaken?!)

He didn't beat Magnus, during a fight with multiple Space Wolves he was able to injure him before the Grey Knights banished Magnus. And even that had more to do with the origins of his axe, rather than his skill, as well as Magnus blowing up the guy with the spear of russ instead of Logan. Daemon Primarchs in fluff are insanely powerful (way beyond what they do on the tabletop), no Marine or Ork can stand against them in a duel.

No the point is that the information inked that Ghaz' was more incapacitated than Ragnar, which is why it's his loss.

warhammer community wrote:Ragnar went hard in his first fight against Ghazghkull, willing to sacrifice his life to put an end to the alien menace. He fought with skill and bravery but ended up with an arm sheared off, a broken neck and several fist-size rents in his armour.

When the warriors of his Great Company found his body, it seemed like the Young King’s saga was over. There was only one option to save his life – attempting to cross the Rubicon Primaris. Ragnar’s spirit was strong and it was not yet ready to travel to the Halls of the Emperor so, somehow, the Wolf Lord clawed his way back to life.

I really see no way to read this as a win for Ragnar

Obviously you think this state of affairs is fine and that's OK. You don't need to rub on everyone that disagrees with you though.

I'm not "rubbing on" anyone. I'm pointing out where people are making up their own canon while ignore established lore.
Whether Ragnar is a suitable match for Thrakka is a matter of opinion.
That Thrakka is not a prime-ork and Ragnar is not a "nobody/standard captain" is a fact.

Ragnar should not best Ghaz' in my opinion.

He didn't.

He's not the top Marine in the setting while Ghaz' is the top Ork. It's equivalent to fething Krillin beating Freeza or, in our setting, Huron Blackheart beating Guilliman', or Calgar beating Abaddon/Mortarion/Magnus. It is rubbish, lazy writing in my opinion and it shows that the Ork threat is actually a joke.

I seriously think you are overreacting to this. Ragnar is no Krillin, more of a Vegeta - which by my understanding of the dbz universe still is weaker than Freeza, but not a total joke character.
But yes, the writing isn't exactly great. Take that from someone who read and liked the Resident Evil novels.

The entire set-up of this duel is stupid. Neither character can kill the other, because both are extremely important to their corresponding background. Thrakka is our Prophet of Gork and Mork, the Beast of Armageddon, Ragnar is the upstart, charismatic son-to-be High King of the space wolves staring in multiple novels. On top of that, they want to sell miniatures of both, so having them actually swing at each other, rather than face off as field commanders is never going to result in anything other than a draw, especially as they already wasted the "got stomped into the ground and then left" trope on Calgar.
The reason why these duels work in the horus heresy is because they can actually kill off the characters involved.
Last, but not least, the reason why Ragnar and not any other wolf is solely because all others already got updated plastic kits a few years ago. "We don't have anyone else" is pretty much the worst reason for a duel.

I tend to agree with AAE. Yea I know who Ragnar is, I know his story but he still really doesnt compete with the likes of Ghaz. He isnt your standard run of the mill Warboss.... He is smarter, more aggressive, has a huge drive that inspires all the Klans.

If I remember the DA story right (Im a old time DA player), he cut Belial in half from the waist down (or snapped his back). Belial. Of the greatest swordsmen in the whole Imperium with the experience to back it up and the Grand Master of one of the best single fighting forces in the whole Imperium, the Deathwing (outside of Custodes and Titans). He still lost, and he understood the weight of Ghaz's threat.

Size does matter, to an Ork. As far as we know Ghaz is the biggest currently in the galaxy, he isnt your Nazdreg or your Snagrod. Those Warlords are his lieutenants now. A huge feat in Orky society. And with his size comes strength, strength vastly greater than an space marine to date.

And whilst he may not be lightning quick like Ragnar, hes a heck of a lot tougher and meaner. Shoot Ragnar in the head with a bolt round and lets see if he can stumble back to camp and have a Apothecary fix him up....

The fight reminds me of Oberyn Martell vs the Mountain in GoT. Yeah Ragnar will be nipping at the heels of Ghaz, pocking and proding, dancing about, but Ghaz would get him just like the Mountain did to Oberyn. Except unlike humans, Orkz have crazy amount stamina, ill quote the Warboss from DoW2 when he fights the Captain, "deyz ooman, deyz get tired.". They simply have the strength toughness and stamina to outlast other opponents. And all it would take was 1 hit to game end Ragnar, wolves dont really fight with finese.... they are savage, bestial. Just like Orkz. There wouldnt be much fancy footwork, its a straight up brawl.

If it were Abaddon vs Ghaz then id be like ok this is some serious crap going down, but Ragnar? right..... Being a better combatant that your Chapter Master doesnt make you better than your Chapter Master. He doesnt have the experience, restraint or knowledge that Logan has. If I remember correctly Ragnar is very brash and hot blooded like a Blood Claw.

He may be next in line for Chapter Master, but he is still just a Captain and really he is the shadow of the Beast. There isnt a comparison between the two, as AAE said, its our Faction's equivalent to Guilliman, Abaddon, Trajann, Swarmlord. He is the HEAD of the Orkoid race atm, not a head of just a smaller sect/klan.

Its like me fighting a world champion heavy weight boxer, I might be the best fighter known to my town, but I would still be outclassed and outweighed.

The whole fluff thats been shown is dumb, Space Wolves sneaking up? Passable, all Chapters have some form of reconnaissance. Getting Ghaz unawares? Hmmm ye no. The Boss isnt just chillin' hes on a mission, hes constantly on the move, kicking up fights! Not sitting in an iron throne ruminating on what to do next! And that doesnt even begin to explain the Bully Boys he would have (no way Primaris would be a match for them in the fluff, especially with Ugrak leading them) and then whatever personal retinue of his Council of the Waaagh! that is currently stationed with him, aka Orkimedes with his techno-gubbins or Weirdboys. Hell the Grots and Squigs would of found the Marines and Ghaz being Ghaz wouldnt just have lazy Ork Patrols mopping about.

The story is silly, and the two dont have any prior conflicts really, it should of been Helbrect and Yarrick. Thats the end of it. We can all argue about why and how but GW has done a GW and thats it.

Me personally, when I get my Ghaz model, im cutting off the stitches and liquid greenstuffing the lines so his neck is back to normal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also agree with Jidmah's last point. But what is done is done. The end.

 deffrekka wrote:
Size does matter, to an Ork. As far as we know Ghaz is the biggest currently in the galaxy, he isnt your Nazdreg or your Snagrod. Those Warlords are his lieutenants now. A huge feat in Orky society. And with his size comes strength, strength vastly greater than an space marine to date.

Agree, but AAE said that he should have the power of a primarch because he is the size of a primarch - while the lore cleary shows that orks who can go toe to toe with a (non-daemon) primarch are 10 meters (~30 feet) or taller, so the size of the current stompa model.

If it were Abaddon vs Ghaz then id be like ok this is some serious crap going down,but Ragnar? right..... Being a better combatant that your Chapter Master doesnt make you better than your Chapter Master. He doesnt have the experience, restraint or knowledge that Logan has. If I remember correctly Ragnar is very brash and hot blooded like a Blood Claw.

He does have two dead Waaagh!-leading warbosses to show as experience though.

He may be next in line for Chapter Master, but he is still just a Captain and really he is the shadow of the Beast. There isnt a comparison between the two, as AAE said, its our Faction's equivalent to Guilliman, Abaddon, Trajann, Swarmlord. He is the HEAD of the Orkoid race atm, not a head of just a smaller sect/klan.

I find it odd that you lump Gulliman in there instead of Calgar, but in general I agree with the assessment of his importance.
I do want to point out though that he is just leading The Great Waaagh! right now, while there are multiple other Waaaghs and ork empires around, lead by Wazzdakka, The Arch-Arsonist of Charradon or the Overfiend of Octarius.
He is much more of an Abaddon (most powerful leader of the most powerful sub-faction) than a Gulliman (leader of an entire faction).

The story is silly, and the two dont have any prior conflicts really, it should of been Helbrect and Yarrick. Thats the end of it. We can all argue about why and how but GW has done a GW and thats it.

I agree, this should have been Helbrecht above all other characters. Black Templars seem to have dropped from GWs attention though...

Me personally, when I get my Ghaz model, im cutting off the stitches and liquid greenstuffing the lines so his neck is back to normal.

Eh, I'd rather keep them and take every chance to taunt our Space Wolves player with Monty Python's back knight quotes

 Jidmah wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
Size does matter, to an Ork. As far as we know Ghaz is the biggest currently in the galaxy, he isnt your Nazdreg or your Snagrod. Those Warlords are his lieutenants now. A huge feat in Orky society. And with his size comes strength, strength vastly greater than an space marine to date.

Agree, but AAE said that he should have the power of a primarch because he is the size of a primarch - while the lore cleary shows that orks who can go toe to toe with a (non-daemon) primarch are 10 meters (~30 feet) or taller, so the size of the current stompa model.

If it were Abaddon vs Ghaz then id be like ok this is some serious crap going down,but Ragnar? right..... Being a better combatant that your Chapter Master doesnt make you better than your Chapter Master. He doesnt have the experience, restraint or knowledge that Logan has. If I remember correctly Ragnar is very brash and hot blooded like a Blood Claw.

He does have two dead Waaagh!-leading warbosses to show as experience though.

He may be next in line for Chapter Master, but he is still just a Captain and really he is the shadow of the Beast. There isnt a comparison between the two, as AAE said, its our Faction's equivalent to Guilliman, Abaddon, Trajann, Swarmlord. He is the HEAD of the Orkoid race atm, not a head of just a smaller sect/klan.

I find it odd that you lump Gulliman in there instead of Calgar, but in general I agree with the assessment of his importance.
I do want to point out though that he is just leading The Great Waaagh! right now, while there are multiple other Waaaghs and ork empires around, lead by Wazzdakka, The Arch-Arsonist of Charradon or the Overfiend of Octarius.
He is much more of an Abaddon (most powerful leader of the most powerful sub-faction) than a Gulliman (leader of an entire faction).

The story is silly, and the two dont have any prior conflicts really, it should of been Helbrect and Yarrick. Thats the end of it. We can all argue about why and how but GW has done a GW and thats it.

I agree, this should have been Helbrecht above all other characters. Black Templars seem to have dropped from GWs attention though...

Me personally, when I get my Ghaz model, im cutting off the stitches and liquid greenstuffing the lines so his neck is back to normal.

Eh, I'd rather keep them and take every chance to taunt our Space Wolves player with Monty Python's back knight quotes

I would of done Calgar if Guilliman wasnt back in the setting, as in previous editions Marneus was kind of seen as the leader of the Marines (as in other Chapters would accept his authority) when Ward did the codex which I found silly. Isnt Abaddon the defacto leader of Chaos? With that silly bit of fluff where all the Daemonic Primarchs bent the knee to him? He is the Horus of 40k in terms of being the Warmaster and being the leader of all the Chaos forces in the Galaxy. Yeah Chaos leaders do their own things every now and then but Abaddon is still the main man of the Faction in general. He isnt no Guilliman and neither is Thrakka, but all 3 are the leaders of the Factions hence why they are all in the same category.

And yeah I agree, Ghaz isnt a match for a Primarch, he may be bigger than any of the current characters in the setting but what gives a Primarch their strengths isnt just their combat prowess, its their minds, charisma (or lack of haha), special abilities and vast intellects. Daemon Primarchs are in a whole new league of their own but they are hard to summon into the material, thats always been their limiting factor. Pound for pound Ghaz equals the str value of 30k Primarchs baring a couple like Vulkan and I think Angron. But never, will and Ork match a Primarch, thats the whole point of Primarchs. They are demigods.

But I would put Ghaz on the same pedestal as Abaddon fluff wise. Not as much as failure but still a huge threat to the galaxy, and ultimately the Imperium sees Chaos as the bigger threat as it does more that slams a choppa in your head. It corrupts. And it is spinning out of control since the fall of Cadia. And sadly the Imperium, although it is vast, cant have its attention everywhere. So whilst it fights Chaos, the other races close in on it, like the T'au snagging territory, the Necrons waking up, the Orkz doing their thing and the Tyranids having a buffet.

The galaxy is unfathomably HUGE. Loosing a Solar System is just a pebble in the ocean, but eventually that ripple will form a tidal wave and thats the whole thing about Orkz. And has been a recurring theme for them, people forget about them and left unchecked things like the Beast happens. But GW has and always will favour the Imperial side of things and pull silly stunts and plot armour to gain a "Pyrrhic" victory (which they always seem to recover from miraculously). 40k as a whole is from the point of view of the Imperium and the largest player base is as youd guess, Imperial.

And yeah a Monty Python Black Knight thing would be funny but the one Space Wolves player in my area hates Ragnar (he prefers Arjac) and I would be making Ghaz into Deffrekka instead. I love the model dont get me wrong! Im just not a fan of the match up or fluff for it, but its what we have been given.

 deffrekka wrote:
Isnt Abaddon the defacto leader of Chaos? With that silly bit of fluff where all the Daemonic Primarchs bent the knee to him? He is the Horus of 40k in terms of being the Warmaster and being the leader of all the Chaos forces in the Galaxy. Yeah Chaos leaders do their own things every now and then but Abaddon is still the main man of the Faction in general.

He really isn't, the other chaos legions and renegades don't give a damn about what he says unless they are joining out of convenience or as mercenaries. Typhus joins him on crusades quite often, but always does so to further his/nurgles goals.
While the primarchs recognize him as the chosen of chaos, he basically bribed four primarchs into helping him, but neither Fulgrim, Mortarion nor Magnus take any orders from him, let alone bend their knees. Angron doesn't count because he never took orders from anyone ever to begin with. All of them could probably kill him at will, if they weren't sure that the chaos gods would severely punish them for it or even directly intervene. World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons can join his black legion, but they leave their original legion to do so, symbolized by painting their armor black.
And lets not get started on the loyalty of daemons

Basically the Black Legion is to chaos what The Great Waaagh! is to orks.

 Jidmah wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
Isnt Abaddon the defacto leader of Chaos? With that silly bit of fluff where all the Daemonic Primarchs bent the knee to him? He is the Horus of 40k in terms of being the Warmaster and being the leader of all the Chaos forces in the Galaxy. Yeah Chaos leaders do their own things every now and then but Abaddon is still the main man of the Faction in general.

He really isn't, the other chaos legions and renegades don't give a damn about what he says unless they are joining out of convenience or as mercenaries. Typhus joins him on crusades quite often, but always does so to further his/nurgles goals.
While the primarchs recognize him as the chosen of chaos, he basically bribed four primarchs into helping him, but neither Fulgrim, Mortarion nor Magnus take any orders from him, let alone bend their knees. Angron doesn't count because he never took orders from anyone ever to begin with. All of them could probably kill him at will, if they weren't sure that the chaos gods would severely punish them for it or even directly intervene. World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons can join his black legion, but they leave their original legion to do so, symbolized by painting their armor black.
And lets not get started on the loyalty of daemons

Basically the Black Legion is to chaos what The Great Waaagh! is to orks.

Oh right, I always thought he had more Authority over the Legions than that. I knew Abbie was a meme but I thought that was always in regards to his Crusades always failing and having both arms cut off. NGL though, I would have Horus over Abaddon any day of the week,

No one expected ghaz to beat guilliman or a demon primarch even abbadon should wipe him out.
But I would have been happy to see ghaz take out a strike team of the imperils new toys of a primarus intecessors and random primarus company captain. Heck I would have been a bit more happy if Ragnar was already primarus when he fought ghaz at least that ups the ork threat.

Yes there are other waaaghs but the lore is clearly about ghaz teleporting around the galaxy and recruiting all these warbosses. It’s only a matter of time when ghaz combines all the klans and warbosses again including wazadakka, nazdreg, etc

I am wondering it the real lesson here is that it doesn't matter how cool Ghaz is, never let him go it alone.

 warhead01 wrote:
I am wondering it the real lesson here is that it doesn't matter how cool Ghaz is, never let him go it alone.

Has Ghaz actually done many duels in his time? I dont remember any that he has been part of. Hes not a Grimgor really, I always thought of him just letting his underlings getting on with it, I can imagine him being challenged by a Captain and he notations his Bully Boyz to step forward and beat him to pulp. I know he fought the Alpha Mawloc but he didnt really get a choice with that one as it burst through the ground and swallowed him. He killed that Bad Moons Warboss when he was rising to power, but I definetly cant remember any Imperial characters hes fought 1 on 1.

Belial is the only one I remember actually.

So, since the book isn't out yet, I present something that I think could satisfy. (It's not LIKELY, but hey, who knows?)



I feel like that'd be okay. A fully rested and prepared Ragnar, as opposed to a Ghaz who might very well be getting tired, even though he's an Ork.

Yup! That's pretty much how I pictured it too. Ghaz will have him in his claw and with a last ditch effort, Rag will swing and chop his head off. The claw will tighten and crush Rag and then its all over but the stitches.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, since the book isn't out yet, I present something that I think could satisfy. (It's not LIKELY, but hey, who knows?)

Spoiler:

Ghaz is leading his crew in an assault on a fortified position, when a dozen drop pods crash down in between him and the majority of his Waaagh! Over a hundred Marines come out, guns blazing, and aiming to separate Ghaz from his forces, so he can be killed. But, they underestimate the strength of the Orks-what was meant to be a clean sweep quickly turns into an absolute mayhem. Ghaz's forces, bereft of their leader, find the next convenient target and start pummeling it. Meanwhile, Ghaz is fighting his way back to the Waaagh! One by one, his bullyboyz are cut down, until, after almost a week of nonstop fighting, Ghaz is the only one left. Ragnar, who's been tracking him, is finally forced to fight Ghaz personally, in order to stop him from breaking through the last line of Wolves and reuniting with his Waaagh!

He comes in, cocky and overconfident, knowing that Ghaz has been fighting for over a week nonstop. He plans to swoop in and claim an easy victory. But, Ghaz's first strike nearly knocks his block off, and he realizes he's in for a desperate fight. For over an hour, the two duel, Ragnar's quick movements only barely saving him from Ghaz's sweeping blows, while Ghaz accumulates yet more injuries-minor, but the ones he's gotten over the week and the ones Ragnar are inflicting are adding up. Eventually, he gets Ragnarin his claw, crushing the lower half of his body. Mind a bit dulled from all the injuries, he takes a moment to gloat instead of simply finishing off the Marine, and Ragnar summons the last of his strength to decapitate Ghaz. The mere convulsions of Ghaz's body tear Ragnar's arm off, thoroughly breaking him, but Ghaz's head falls to the ground, just as his Waaagh! (sensing his presence) break through and take on the Wolves.

I feel like that'd be okay. A fully rested and prepared Ragnar, as opposed to a Ghaz who might very well be getting tired, even though he's an Ork.

Do you reckon Ragnar broke his neck after chopping Ghaz's head off? This is the part im like over... Did Ghaz's body fall on him or something as that would crush more than just your neck, and if that werent the case how does someone fight on with a broken neck? I know Astartes are tough, but they dont really have any special organs that stops crap like that from affecting your nerves from being severed.

Im just finding it hard to imagine how Ragnar got his broken neck that didnt involve Ghaz falling on his head (which would pulp his unarmoured skull and crush anything else) or being thrown against a wall mid death throw which would do way more damage that breaking your neck. If it were me I would leave out the broken neck part and instead have it that Ragnar was ripped in half as there is no way Ghaz's klaw would just snip an arm, if Ghaz held onto his arm and yanked, it would take the shoulder and anything else thats attached via implants, black carapace and bionics. Just like when that Ork in the DoW3 trailer tears off that Marines arm, its more than just his arm that got taken off.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Is Leman Russ dead?

As dead as all important characters that might have died off-screen

Is it possible Leman Russ could return?
Would Leman Russ be a better fighter than Ragnar?

Obviously.

Would Ghaz' be able to do anything against Leman Russ?

Absolutely not. Horus slaughtered Overlord Urrlak Urruk (the warboss who almost killed the emperor) and his entire honor guard by himself, broke his back and tossed him of a tower. Leman Russ is a stronger combatant than Horus was and might have been warp-wolfed on top of that. Meanwhile, Thrakka is nowhere near Urrlak Urruk. If you would want Thrakka be dead-dead or running away like a coward, Leman Russ would be exactly the right opponent for him.

I'm going to need a citation for your claim on Horus slaughtering Urrlak Urruk in the way you've described because you've got your fluff wrong here. I've read the book where the Emperor is almost killed and it isn't Urrlak that does it, it's one of his MegaMeks (unnamed I believe). It's not even on the same planet. Horus doesn't 'slaughter' the MegaMek either. He sucker punches him while the MegaMek holds the Emperor by the neck. While he sucker punches/stabs him, he releases his grip on the Emperor and effortlessly incapacitates Horus. He's about to kill Horus before the Emperor steps in and has to do the ctrl-alt-del psychic power to wipe the MegaMek from existence (which is the first time Horus sees psychic power/the warp and led to his eventual corruption, it's also exactly the same power that the Emperor later uses on Horus, ironically).

As to Horus v Leman Russ, we'll never know. My knowledge of their only fight is that Russ effectively stalled Horus while taking a serious beating, though Horus was all Chaos'd up to be fair. It's somewhat irrelevant here because...

Make no mistake though, the battle the Luna Wolves (and the other Legions, I might add) had against the Orks of Urrlak Urruk pre Heresy was not a cakewalk or an easy victory. It was a crusade of epic proportions that was/is storied in the setting for a reason. This is the potential threat that Orks could (and should) be.

I really see no way to read this as a win for Ragnar

If I cut off your head, Jid and you cut off my arm and broke my back, who would you say has "won" the fight?
It's a moot point, because Ragnar shouldn't even be holding Ghaz to a draw.

I'm not "rubbing on" anyone. I'm pointing out where people are making up their own canon while ignore established lore.
Whether Ragnar is a suitable match for Thrakka is a matter of opinion.
That Thrakka is not a prime-ork and Ragnar is not a "nobody/standard captain" is a fact.

You're jumping over any one who believes this fluff is poorly written and stupid because you've done a bit of homework on Ragnar and you've bought into the hype.
Ghaz is a Prime-ork. Or at the very least on the way to becoming one. We also only found out that he isn't a Prime-ork from this latest piece of awful lore where he gets his head chopped off.
I'm not claiming that Ragnar is a "nobody/standard captain". The claim is that he is not/should not be equal to Ghaz. I don't know why you keep strawmanning like this.

Ragnar should not best Ghaz' in my opinion.

He didn't.

See above, our pretend fight. Answer honestly.

I seriously think you are overreacting to this. Ragnar is no Krillin, more of a Vegeta - which by my understanding of the dbz universe still is weaker than Freeza, but not a total joke character.
But yes, the writing isn't exactly great. Take that from someone who read and liked the Resident Evil novels.

This is almost certainly an overreaction. Totally agree on that. Vegeta is the number 2 guy, so as far as the Wolves are concerned that'd be Logan, I guess, because Russ is number 1. The analogy somewhat falls apart after that because as of now Vegeta would destroy Freeza with his eyes closed.

The entire set-up of this duel is stupid. Neither character can kill the other, because both are extremely important to their corresponding background. Thrakka is our Prophet of Gork and Mork, the Beast of Armageddon, Ragnar is the upstart, charismatic son-to-be High King of the space wolves staring in multiple novels. On top of that, they want to sell miniatures of both, so having them actually swing at each other, rather than face off as field commanders is never going to result in anything other than a draw, especially as they already wasted the "got stomped into the ground and then left" trope on Calgar.
The reason why these duels work in the horus heresy is because they can actually kill off the characters involved.
Last, but not least, the reason why Ragnar and not any other wolf is solely because all others already got updated plastic kits a few years ago. "We don't have anyone else" is pretty much the worst reason for a duel.

Now this is something I completely agree with.

To be fair, I think you're trying to justify this lore position and I can't blame you for that. I think it's lame but I don't have an issue if you disagree with me. As you have correctly stated above - whether Ragnar is a suitable match for Ghazzy is absolutely a matter of opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deffrekka wrote:

Spoiler:

I tend to agree with AAE. Yea I know who Ragnar is, I know his story but he still really doesnt compete with the likes of Ghaz. He isnt your standard run of the mill Warboss.... He is smarter, more aggressive, has a huge drive that inspires all the Klans.

If I remember the DA story right (Im a old time DA player), he cut Belial in half from the waist down (or snapped his back). Belial. Of the greatest swordsmen in the whole Imperium with the experience to back it up and the Grand Master of one of the best single fighting forces in the whole Imperium, the Deathwing (outside of Custodes and Titans). He still lost, and he understood the weight of Ghaz's threat.

Size does matter, to an Ork. As far as we know Ghaz is the biggest currently in the galaxy, he isnt your Nazdreg or your Snagrod. Those Warlords are his lieutenants now. A huge feat in Orky society. And with his size comes strength, strength vastly greater than an space marine to date.

And whilst he may not be lightning quick like Ragnar, hes a heck of a lot tougher and meaner. Shoot Ragnar in the head with a bolt round and lets see if he can stumble back to camp and have a Apothecary fix him up....

The fight reminds me of Oberyn Martell vs the Mountain in GoT. Yeah Ragnar will be nipping at the heels of Ghaz, pocking and proding, dancing about, but Ghaz would get him just like the Mountain did to Oberyn. Except unlike humans, Orkz have crazy amount stamina, ill quote the Warboss from DoW2 when he fights the Captain, "deyz ooman, deyz get tired.". They simply have the strength toughness and stamina to outlast other opponents. And all it would take was 1 hit to game end Ragnar, wolves dont really fight with finese.... they are savage, bestial. Just like Orkz. There wouldnt be much fancy footwork, its a straight up brawl.

If it were Abaddon vs Ghaz then id be like ok this is some serious crap going down, but Ragnar? right..... Being a better combatant that your Chapter Master doesnt make you better than your Chapter Master. He doesnt have the experience, restraint or knowledge that Logan has. If I remember correctly Ragnar is very brash and hot blooded like a Blood Claw.

He may be next in line for Chapter Master, but he is still just a Captain and really he is the shadow of the Beast. There isnt a comparison between the two, as AAE said, its our Faction's equivalent to Guilliman, Abaddon, Trajann, Swarmlord. He is the HEAD of the Orkoid race atm, not a head of just a smaller sect/klan.

Its like me fighting a world champion heavy weight boxer, I might be the best fighter known to my town, but I would still be outclassed and outweighed.

The whole fluff thats been shown is dumb, Space Wolves sneaking up? Passable, all Chapters have some form of reconnaissance. Getting Ghaz unawares? Hmmm ye no. The Boss isnt just chillin' hes on a mission, hes constantly on the move, kicking up fights! Not sitting in an iron throne ruminating on what to do next! And that doesnt even begin to explain the Bully Boys he would have (no way Primaris would be a match for them in the fluff, especially with Ugrak leading them) and then whatever personal retinue of his Council of the Waaagh! that is currently stationed with him, aka Orkimedes with his techno-gubbins or Weirdboys. Hell the Grots and Squigs would of found the Marines and Ghaz being Ghaz wouldnt just have lazy Ork Patrols mopping about.

The story is silly, and the two dont have any prior conflicts really, it should of been Helbrect and Yarrick. Thats the end of it. We can all argue about why and how but GW has done a GW and thats it.

Me personally, when I get my Ghaz model, im cutting off the stitches and liquid greenstuffing the lines so his neck is back to normal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also agree with Jidmah's last point. But what is done is done. The end.

I like and agree with all of this post, but the greenstuffing of the stiches is the winner for me. I may be doing this myself.

Really its all down to the fact Ghaz hasnt had his own series of Novels from his point of view. Ragnar has all these silly claims, yet we know nothing really of what Ghaz has bested in melee or what he has survived. And when a Space Marines has done crap to 3 Daemonic Primarchs it kind of becomes mute. I loose interest.

I bet if a Grot did the same people would cry sin about it. It simply becomes too silly. In the eyes of these Immortal Primarchs a Space Marine is a Grot.

I like my 40k where people die everyday, regardless if they are heroes or a no name civilian. Its why I kind of prefer 30k fluff. Things progress, Heroes die, Worlds burn, Primarchs fall. Not Unstoppable Space Wolf Murder Hobo breaking everyone over his knee like Bane to Batman... Ragnar isnt as special as the next Space Marine in the grand scheme of things, but writers will also make Imperial characters better than they should as 40k as a whole is a Imperial setting.

Quick question: is the list of units and their relative usefulness at the start of the thread currently up to date for the current meta (ITC) or not?

Cheers!

A few units have probably slipped up or down, both because of the Marine meta and the point drops we got in CA, but I think we're all kinda waiting for our PA to drop before we really give it a good look over and switch stuff up.

Guys do you know if by the 29th we will have the rules out ? Sorry for asking, the info was surely written here somewhere

I dont think PA has a official set date, but the expected release is late march yes.

addnid wrote:
Guys do you know if by the 29th we will have the rules out ? Sorry for asking, the info was surely written here somewhere

Preorder 21st, out by the 28th is my Bet. Otherwise it wont be a March release. Unless they pull an Orktober and release it the next month haha

I'll be camping Saturday-Tuesday. I wonder how many times my wife tells me to put my phone away Sunday afternoon...

 Haasbioroid wrote:
I'll be camping Saturday-Tuesday. I wonder how many times my wife tells me to put my phone away Sunday afternoon...

Yeah ill be hitting that refresh all day! Usually they post the big stuff around 5pm

i wish they would put up preorders 2 weeks in advance. My gamestore always has issues getting the right numbers of crap when they wont reveal any prices or official name of what the product even is in some cases until that week.
Far as i know we still dont have 100% confirmation theres a box set for this PA. If there isnt, i need to order Ghaz+PA+whatever else is coming. If there is then i need to coordinate with the local wolf player to split it lol.

i pretty much never get new stuff the week its available because of this.

Ya I've already got a plan in place to trade wolves for orks with a local player if that bottom pic does in fact end up being a box set. I really hope it does!

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i wish they would put up preorders 2 weeks in advance. My gamestore always has issues getting the right numbers of crap when they wont reveal any prices or official name of what the product even is in some cases until that week.
Far as i know we still dont have 100% confirmation theres a box set for this PA. If there isnt, i need to order Ghaz+PA+whatever else is coming. If there is then i need to coordinate with the local wolf player to split it lol.

i pretty much never get new stuff the week its available because of this.

I'm lucky. It seems like a local distribution centre is in my hometown, because whenever I order stuff online, I have gotten it in like... 2 days. Always floors me.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i wish they would put up preorders 2 weeks in advance. My gamestore always has issues getting the right numbers of crap when they wont reveal any prices or official name of what the product even is in some cases until that week.
Far as i know we still dont have 100% confirmation theres a box set for this PA. If there isnt, i need to order Ghaz+PA+whatever else is coming. If there is then i need to coordinate with the local wolf player to split it lol.

i pretty much never get new stuff the week its available because of this.

What I tend to do is wait and watch the reviews on preorder day either through GMG or TTT on youtube. If I dont like it then Ill wait. I havent bought a single PA, not even Ritual of the Damned for my DA. The only ones im interested in is this one and Engine War. Luckily I have a shared account on BL with a few guys at the club and if one of us buys the ebook we all get to see it. Its a joint thing we all dip into. And funnily my store is the opposite to yours, he always orders waaaaaay more stock than he should do and then when he doesnt sell stuff he we keep lowering the price until its pretty much at trade price. I bought a Gorkanaut a couple years back for like £45 haha as it did sell for ages and just recently he was tryna shift 2 Grundstock Gunhaulers £30 for the pair hahaha! But I resisted

My store isnt a proper GW store though, in fact 40k is like a quarter of the people that regular the place.
As a result they tend to try to not over order, because if the immediate people with their faces pressed on the window waiting for the store to open on release day didnt buy it most likely its going to sit there for a long time.

Nobody in my area plays Admech and i ordered a sizeable army with them. Since then they started carrying some admech stuff that sits on the shelf with the other 40k boxes and...other than a knight i dont think anything has sold outside that initial order i did lol.
Usually if i get anything right away its because the guy that does the orders knows me pretty well and even if i didnt order anything he expects me to buy it anyway and hes right 99% of the time lol. But, since thats not preorder, if it gets cleaned up before i show im outta luck.

Theres a LOT of orks in my area, i'd say about a third of the 40k players have ork armies here. Though i am easily the most active with orks, i rarely see others on the table even though i know they exist; while i play 4-5 ork games before i touch my admech once lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
My store isnt a proper GW store though, in fact 40k is like a quarter of the people that regular the place.
As a result they tend to try to not over order, because if the immediate people with their faces pressed on the window waiting for the store to open on release day didnt buy it most likely its going to sit there for a long time.

Nobody in my area plays Admech and i ordered a sizeable army with them. Since then they started carrying some admech stuff that sits on the shelf with the other 40k boxes and...other than a knight i dont think anything has sold outside that initial order i did lol.
Usually if i get anything right away its because the guy that does the orders knows me pretty well and even if i didnt order anything he expects me to buy it anyway and hes right 99% of the time lol. But, since thats not preorder, if it gets cleaned up before i show im outta luck.

Theres a LOT of orks in my area, i'd say about a third of the 40k players have ork armies here. Though i am easily the most active with orks, i rarely see others on the table even though i know they exist; while i play 4-5 ork games before i touch my admech once lol

Mine isnt a GW either. Most of the people who go play Magic or Transformers. I had to run a 40k campaign just to get games, and now ive got a rota set up so more tabletop games are played instead of just card games (as i dont play card games, nothing against them, just arent my thing). In my area I am the only Ork and Admech player. Its mainly Marines, one Dark Eldar player, a handful of T'au, GSC and Nid players and then Guard and Sisters. I tend to get 3 games on a Saturday and thats it, but before January I took a looooong ass break from 40k, since May last year as I couldnt stand 8th (still cant stand it but 30k has died out pretty badly so what can you do haha!).

 deffrekka wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
My store isnt a proper GW store though, in fact 40k is like a quarter of the people that regular the place.

Mine isnt a GW either. Most of the people who go play Magic or Transformers. I had to run a 40k campaign just to get games, and now ive got a rota set up so more tabletop games are played instead of just card games (as i dont play card games, nothing against them, just arent my thing). In my area I am the only Ork and Admech player. Its mainly Marines, one Dark Eldar player, a handful of T'au, GSC and Nid players and then Guard and Sisters. I tend to get 3 games on a Saturday and thats it, but before January I took a looooong ass break from 40k, since May last year as I couldnt stand 8th (still cant stand it but 30k has died out pretty badly so what can you do haha!).

Transformers is a game ??