No more muckin' about - Proppa Ork Tactics Thread [Lists in spoilers or we'll krump ya]

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**gibbindefs**

Vineheart01 wrote:
if you make him infantry he'd be nearly unkillable as he is.

Grotsnik is moderately resilient to snipers (not amazing but way better than painboys) and he'd be healing ghaz for 2D3 every turn (normal heal + medisquig) while only taking a maximum of 4 until melee happens.
You pretty much would never kill him until you got at Grotsnik or you managed to psyker/shoot/melee him in 1 round. Which is possible, but up to 50-50 luck holding strong due to that invul.

Healing him makes him more unkillable than him being under 10 wounds and not getting shot at all(except by snipers)? They're still gonna mow down the rest of the horde around him and if he's tough to kill you just ignore him until the rest of the army is dead. He doesn't suddenly become OP if he is infantry, just functions better. Grotsnik can't use medi-squig because they aren't the same clan. If you are using CP every turn to heal Ghaz you aren't using it for more important stuff like rerolls, more dakka, shoot twice, skarboyz, tellyporta, etc.

**No wolves on Fenris**

Jidmah wrote:
Just be careful with overwatch, that's a different phase from the fight phase.

I'm probably going to chuck him in my buggies list to replace the deep striking deff dreads. Forcing the enemy to divert 4 damage each turn (and losing overkill) is pretty neat for a distraction carnifex. Might even bring back the painboy on bike to medi-squig him every turn, it's not like I have lots of use for my CP in that list anyways.

Thought it either counted as being in the fight phase. So he could at worse take 4wounds in overwatch then not be touched in combat

**An Actual Englishman**

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Just be careful with overwatch, that's a different phase from the fight phase.

I'm probably going to chuck him in my buggies list to replace the deep striking deff dreads. Forcing the enemy to divert 4 damage each turn (and losing overkill) is pretty neat for a distraction carnifex. Might even bring back the painboy on bike to medi-squig him every turn, it's not like I have lots of use for my CP in that list anyways.

Thought it either counted as being in the fight phase. So he could at worse take 4wounds in overwatch then not be touched in combat

Overwatch happens in the CHARGE phase mate. Y'know, as you're charging in to combat.

All - I've just read a review of Ghaz in a competitive sense. Dude who did the review basically said he's garbage in competitive play. He also said he had seen PA6 rules and there was nothing to help change that.

Looks like GW have royally fethed up Ghaz's new rules. There's so much whining for others to get the "4 Wound per Phase limit" rule too, so I bet it finds its way to much better units. Things are looking dire.

**Billagio**

The marine players cant stand a non-marine faction getting something good that they dont have

**RedNoak**

they should just rephrase the rule of the great whaagh to include the words : "...and to himself"
would fix the biggest problem of ghaz... but yeah, guess orkz can't have nice things

**tulun**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Just be careful with overwatch, that's a different phase from the fight phase.

I'm probably going to chuck him in my buggies list to replace the deep striking deff dreads. Forcing the enemy to divert 4 damage each turn (and losing overkill) is pretty neat for a distraction carnifex. Might even bring back the painboy on bike to medi-squig him every turn, it's not like I have lots of use for my CP in that list anyways.

Thought it either counted as being in the fight phase. So he could at worse take 4wounds in overwatch then not be touched in combat

Overwatch happens in the CHARGE phase mate. Y'know, as you're charging in to combat.

All - I've just read a review of Ghaz in a competitive sense. Dude who did the review basically said he's garbage in competitive play. He also said he had seen PA6 rules and there was nothing to help change that.

Looks like GW have royally fethed up Ghaz's new rules. There's so much whining for others to get the "4 Wound per Phase limit" rule too, so I bet it finds its way to much better units. Things are looking dire.

Link to that review?

**RedNoak**

tulun wrote:

Link to that review?

i'd second that

**An Actual Englishman**

It was a post on "GrimDark Corner" on Facebook. I'll copy it verbatim here and see if I can provide link to the post. If I can't link the exact post I'll link the Facebook page;

GrimDark Corner wrote:So, I think it's about time we talked about the new Ghazghkull rules, from a competetive point of view...
tl;dr - they're pretty bad, unless fighting against the Tau!
.
First of all, his profile is needlessly overcomplicated. 9 wounds and no degrading profile would serve him much, much better.
The rule about losing only 4 wounds per phase looks neat but really doesn't mean all that much. Many armies can still dispatch him in 1 turn (Grey Knights and Eldar psychic-shooting-melee for example, or Sisters of battle and dark Angels can use stratagem to shoot him in the moving phase -shoot again-melee) or cripple him on 1st turn and finish him on overwatch. It's really only worth it again factions that focus on one phase only, like T'au, for example.
Second of all, his strength is surprisingly low - a regular warboss with a warlord trait can strike at the same strength as his maxed out profile while being (most likely) around half the price.
Third and perhaps most importantly, the monster keyword, while making narrative sense, utterly cripples him. Not only he doesn't benefit from his own buffs, he doesn't even get ork buffs, cannot use transports or Da jump or even be healed by Painboys.
Admittedly, he can still be healed by a Goff Painboy with a stratagem, but another curious thing that the greatest ork warboss doesn't really give you any CP benefits.
.
Overall, Makari does indeed have much more sensible rules than him. Overall he's sorely lacking compared to someone like Guilliman or Feirros and comparatively brings very little to the army compared to them while being overpriced, as his power level puts him on well over 200 points.
He could perhaps work as a niche, but certainly not as a faction's main named character and is a show of pretty shoddy and bad work from the GW rules team.
His rules are very flawed and while you can admire the new sculpt or enjoy playing him in narrative games, it's a shame that return of the most iconic ork in all of 40K has such a bitter aftertaste.
.
!!!UPDATE!!! I thought this goes without saying but to clarify:
1. This is a competetive discussion, if you are a causal player (which is completely fine) this doesn't concern you. Also, it's by no means an attack on those who like the new Ghazghkull.
2. I've read an advanced copy of the next PA book and while I cannot discuss it yet due to embargo, know that I've taken the stuff in it into consideration while writing this.
.
#HobbyNews #GrimDarkCorner #Orks

Facebook page link; https://www.facebook.com/pg/GDcornerWargaming/posts/?ref=page_internal

**flandarz**

Reading the review, it seems that the reviewer didn't really say he was garbage, but rather that he a "good" choice. Which is fair. He mentions that he could have niche uses, which I also agree with. I still posit that a change to his Waagh, and a sweeping Klaw would make him far better, but that, as-is, you could certainly find a use for him even with his lackluster rules.

As for the 'ere we go discussion, the FAQ specifically calls out abilities that allow you to reroll a single dice. 'Ere we go is an ability that allows you to roll any or all of the dice. From a strict RAW perspective, it doesn't interact with the FAQ. Side note: if the hang-up is that using 'ere we go for a single dice counts, would we be able to "stagger" our rerolls if we used Ramming Speed on a Dread and only used 'ere we go on 2 of the dice?

Of course, by a strict RAW perspective, Waagh abilities can allow you to charge during your opponent's turn too, and they're both things I consider too gimmicky and "against the spirit of the rules" to use. Just saying there's a RAW argument to be made there.

**Jidmah**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
All - I've just read a review of Ghaz in a competitive sense. Dude who did the review basically said he's garbage in competitive play. He also said he had seen PA6 rules and there was nothing to help change that.

Looks like GW have royally fethed up Ghaz's new rules. There's so much whining for others to get the "4 Wound per Phase limit" rule too, so I bet it finds its way to much better units. Things are looking dire.

Well, then let's congratulate ourselves on our very own overpriced anti-synergistic melee only centerpiece. A true primarch, exactly what everyone wished for.

**An Actual Englishman**

Jidmah wrote:
An Actual Englishman wrote:
All - I've just read a review of Ghaz in a competitive sense. Dude who did the review basically said he's garbage in competitive play. He also said he had seen PA6 rules and there was nothing to help change that.

Looks like GW have royally fethed up Ghaz's new rules. There's so much whining for others to get the "4 Wound per Phase limit" rule too, so I bet it finds its way to much better units. Things are looking dire.

Well, then let's congratulate ourselves on our very own overpriced anti-synergistic melee only centerpiece. A true primarch, exactly what everyone wished for.

Don't put this on the players Jid. And true Primarchs are far superior.

**Jidmah**

I own and play Mortarion regularly and he absolutely is not.
Any DG list is better without him.

**An Actual Englishman**

flandarz wrote:
Reading the review, it seems that the reviewer didn't really say he was garbage, but rather that he a "good" choice. Which is fair. He mentions that he could have niche uses, which I also agree with. I still posit that a change to his Waagh, and a sweeping Klaw would make him far better, but that, as-is, you could certainly find a use for him even with his lackluster rules.

I think this phrase summarises his review perfectly;

His rules are very flawed and while you can admire the new sculpt or enjoy playing him in narrative games, it's a shame that return of the most iconic ork in all of 40K has such a bitter aftertaste.

That doesn't sound like he was saying he is a "good" choice to me at all. It sounds a lot closer to "garbage".

Flandarz, I get that you want Ghaz to work but I just think you'll find when you get him on the table that he just doesn't. The best your opponent can do is stay away and ignore him. He just doesn't have the damage output to make his points back unless he's fighting against the perfect opponents, which a half decent opponent will never allow him to do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jidmah wrote:
I own and play Mortarion regularly and he absolutely is not.
Any DG list is better without him.

Perhaps in pure DG, but the brothers actually feature in quite a few Chaos lists and do relatively well when paired together.

Shame we haven't got another Primarch to call on I guess.

**flandarz**

he could perhaps work as a niche, but certainly not as a faction's main named character and is a show of pretty shoddy and bad work from the GW rules team.

I was referring to the above in my statement. This says to me that, while certainly not a good choice, he can work against certain opponents, or in certain lists.

**tulun**

The review doesn't sound encouraging, no.

Real shame. Hopefully in the grand scheme of things, he can at least be played semi-competitively and not be total deadweight.

**Jidmah**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
Perhaps in pure DG, but the brothers actually feature in quite a few Chaos lists and do relatively well when paired together.

Those lists died when Magnus got his invulnerable status revoked - which was more than two years ago. Neither have seen any noteworthy competitive play since.

It's irrelevant either way, because there is no Warptime to soup in for orks to give Thrakka a jump start.

**SemperMortis**

An Actual Englishman wrote:
flandarz wrote:
Reading the review, it seems that the reviewer didn't really say he was garbage, but rather that he a "good" choice. Which is fair. He mentions that he could have niche uses, which I also agree with. I still posit that a change to his Waagh, and a sweeping Klaw would make him far better, but that, as-is, you could certainly find a use for him even with his lackluster rules.

I think this phrase summarises his review perfectly;

His rules are very flawed and while you can admire the new sculpt or enjoy playing him in narrative games, it's a shame that return of the most iconic ork in all of 40K has such a bitter aftertaste.

That doesn't sound like he was saying he is a "good" choice to me at all. It sounds a lot closer to "garbage".

Flandarz, I get that you want Ghaz to work but I just think you'll find when you get him on the table that he just doesn't. The best your opponent can do is stay away and ignore him. He just doesn't have the damage output to make his points back unless he's fighting against the perfect opponents, which a half decent opponent will never allow him to do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jidmah wrote:
I own and play Mortarion regularly and he absolutely is not.
Any DG list is better without him.

Perhaps in pure DG, but the brothers actually feature in quite a few Chaos lists and do relatively well when paired together.

Shame we haven't got another Primarch to call on I guess.

Maybe we will get lucky and they will give him a quick update in a month or two once they realize how utterly crap he is on the table. This is surprising from a business perspective though. You think they would want to move the model as much as possible, and if Primarchs are anything to go by, Ghaz is going to be costing somewhere around $150 for this model. I'll be honest, I won't be buying one for awhile if for no other reason then I don't have the time and money to put into a single character model that I most likely won't be using in games.

**yukishiro1**

They're not even selling him alone for a while, they're doing the usual thing of forcing people to fork out $170ish for the new boxed set to get any of the new models.

**SemperMortis**

yukishiro1 wrote:
They're not even selling him alone for a while, they're doing the usual thing of forcing people to fork out $170ish for the new boxed set to get any of the new models.

Will be interesting to see the price

Mortarion and Magnus are $150 but Girlyman is like $60. Its a bit pathetic that Ghaz would be tougher if they reduced his wounds by 3 LOL

**Khorzain**

What Ork player wants to have their book cover featuring a Space Wolf wielding a decapitated Ork head?

Thankfully we have digital versions, I think I'm going to do a cover swap from Prophecy of the Wolf to Saga of the Beast instead, lol.

**Vineheart01**

i mean...theres still an ork on the cover. More than guard/tyranids/GSC can say lol

**GreenTidePackers**

It's going to be a real shame if Ghaz is confirmed uncompetitive or not even a decent choice. Which means GW has completely failed two different ork releases. First the buggies and now ghaz. Its pretty comical at this point.

**gungo**

To be fair this review doesn’t tell us anything we don’t know already about ghaz except the new PA BOOK doesn’t have any strats to help ghaz fix his issues...
Ghaz can’t use relics or non goff warlord traits so those wouldn’t help him.

The one thing he mentioned that I agree with and didn’t think of is ghaz really should have helped provide some CPs... orks tend to be very CP hungry and it would have been nice if he had this to help your army.

My wishlist-
Fix ghaz Waagh, give him a stikk bomb flinga, have makari deploy with him but act separately once deployed, and give ghaz An ability that reduces the teleport strategem by 1 or make skarboys in his detachment for free, and ghaz would be great!!!

What’s the email address for faq questions and suggestions?

**Vineheart01**

Yeah, having him give us a couple CP would have been nice.

Gman isnt much more expensive, has reroll auras out the ass, full character protected, super tanky, and a beatstick if he does see melee and he gives 3CP as well.

**Jidmah**

Just fixing his Waaagh! would already put him into "not great, but OK" territory, a place where he can be fixed by point drops.

**GreenTidePackers**

Jidmah wrote:
Just fixing his Waaagh! would already put him into "not great, but OK" territory, a place where he can be fixed by point drops.

Idk even being conservative with point cost; him being 280 points i think he'd need a lot more than his current ruleset and getting advance and charge. I think he would move into the ok area if he got that plus getting access to the typical infantry strats and jump.

**yukishiro1**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, having him give us a couple CP would have been nice.

Gman isnt much more expensive, has reroll auras out the ass, full character protected, super tanky, and a beatstick if he does see melee and he gives 3CP as well.

And even so, Ultramarines see limited competitive play because they're weak compared to other marine factions.

Rather ominous for Ghaz, who seems to be a much weaker model, in an even weaker faction relative to other Orks than Ultramarines are relative to other Marines.

**gungo**

I’m posting this here so people remember to feedback ghaz and anything in the new PA book that needs it.
40KFAQ@gwplc.com

**Jidmah**

GreenTidePackers wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Just fixing his Waaagh! would already put him into "not great, but OK" territory, a place where he can be fixed by point drops.

Idk even being conservative with point cost; him being 280 points i think he'd need a lot more than his current ruleset and getting advance and charge. I think he would move into the ok area if he got that plus getting access to the typical infantry strats and jump.

The thing is, no amount of point drops can fix a unit that doesn't work, see burnas. Going from the premise that an assault units worth is solely decided by its ability to reach combat, Thrakka needs to be able to reach combat before you can even stat to calculate his efficiency in combat or apply stratagems. His aura helps him with that.

If they don't fix his aura, and drop him to 200 points, he will still be a large chunk of points without a purpose.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, having him give us a couple CP would have been nice.

Gman isnt much more expensive, has reroll auras out the ass, full character protected, super tanky, and a beatstick if he does see melee and he gives 3CP as well.

And even so, Ultramarines see limited competitive play because they're weak compared to other marine factions.

Rather ominous for Ghaz, who seems to be a much weaker model, in an even weaker faction relative to other Orks than Ultramarines are relative to other Marines.

The ultramarine players in my area have replaced Gulliman with Calgar+Sergeant, because the provide just as much for less points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I’m posting this here so people remember to feedback ghaz and anything in the new PA book that needs it.
40KFAQ@gwplc.com

Thank you. People, do this. Send polite mails to them explaining the problem and proposing solutions. Make sure all our unclear rules are clarified this time.

**An Actual Englishman**

Jidmah wrote:

Thank you. People, do this. Send polite mails to them explaining the problem and proposing solutions. Make sure all our unclear rules are clarified this time.

Perhaps we need to collate what needs clarifying, what needs improving and what is just outright bad?

Maybe wait until we know the contents of PA6 first?