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I was hoping for his Waagh to be faq to fix him however with the new strat that specifically doesn’t allow ghaz. Ghaz needs a lot more to even counter a generic warboss or warboss in bike w relic and strat is flat out better.

Ghaz now needs his waaagh fixed, makari and him to deploy together, and either all goff boys in his detachment to be skarboys or reduce teleport strat by 1. Ghaz need a lot more to be even table worthy. It’s a shame that strat can’t be used with ghaz as it limits ghaz use even more!

I think he needs less than that. He really just needs 3 things to become competitive.

1) fix his Waagh.
2) some option to help him deal with chaff/screen. Either a Klaw sweep (3 hit rolls per attack, at lower Strength, AP, and Damage) or a "this model does not need to Fallback to leave CC with enemy units that have the Infantry Keyword, and enemy models in these units do not restrict its movement during the Move Phase. When it does so, it deals 1d3 MWs to any units it moves over, but it must end it's movement in a valid position." Maybe both, as they seem appropriate to him
3) a "Ramming Speed" Stratagem or ability that works specifically for him.

How to fix Ghaz: do not buy. Done.

So, we should all buy the new Ghaz model but then play him as counts-as not-Ghaz with the new stratagem?

cody.d. wrote:
Though the idea of dreads getting first turn charge is rather wonderful. Just have a wartrike wandering behind a unit of piston equiped evil suns dreads and thats a minimum 12 inch move/advance with rerolls on the advance.

Iirc dreads become separate units after getting deployed

 Clang wrote:
So, we should all buy the new Ghaz model but then play him as counts-as not-Ghaz with the new stratagem?

Yup. Unless legends is not allowed in your game set-up.
Might be too big though, to be practical I mean.

My head is still working around the fact that we don't have a basic MA warboss datasheet in the codex.

The sad truth is that the best course of action would be not buying new Ghaz at all.

They need to realize that writing shoddy rules like this can break a beautiful models' back and ruin all the work their marketing has put into hyping it up.

It really feels like they are afraid of making orks (or any other xenos) too good, while they have no fears in that regard whatsoever when designing marines.

Well, so far, from all the new stuff we got 2 good strats which ain't half bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You will likely get cheaper ghaz 2d hand in a couple of months if there's no faq with serious buffs by that time.

 Jidmah wrote:
The sad truth is that the best course of action would be not buying new Ghaz at all.

They need to realize that writing shoddy rules like this can break a beautiful models' back and ruin all the work their marketing has put into hyping it up.

It really feels like they are afraid of making orks (or any other xenos) too good, while they have no fears in that regard whatsoever when designing marines.

This. We should really boycott him.

I don't think that's the move personally. I want to "reward" them for giving us a great model (I just want to own it). The rules are temporary in the sense that they can change (by errata or new edition, or strats) but this model is likely to stick around 10-15 years and if they see that Ork sculpts sell then they're inclined to make more (I hope).

The dream is that they realise no-one ever uses him in tournaments ITC or otherwise and balances him thereafter. It's a great model and everyone who wants to get it should buy it IMO and not hold out in some, most likely insignificant, protest towards the rules they gave him.

I'm getting 2 Ghaz models. feth boycotting him. GW taking all my money for such a hot model.

If you want his rules to improve petition GW via the appropriate channels (FAQ@gwplc.co.uk or whatever the email address posted earlier was).

I don't think GW are scared of Orks being competitive, I think they don't want to make all their new models too good because then people, such as myself, claim that they create rules with sales in mind. Ork models, given our Buggies that released and given Ghaz, are the exceptions that prove the rule. The alternative is simply that GW don't care enough to properly test Ork units so throw them out without really considering the competitive element. Likely they thought Ghaz is better than he is. I suspect all the new Ad Mech models will be ridiculous, given the love they are getting from GW at the moment. We've only got to look at their new tank for evidence of this.

 Jidmah wrote:
The sad truth is that the best course of action would be not buying new Ghaz at all.

They need to realize that writing shoddy rules like this can break a beautiful models' back and ruin all the work their marketing has put into hyping it up.

It really feels like they are afraid of making orks (or any other xenos) too good, while they have no fears in that regard whatsoever when designing marines.

They are not afraid to make Tau really good. Many top players say Tau is the next scarecrow, in ITC format anyway (dunno what top ETC players think). Even with the (very) few nerfs from the recent psychic awakening FAQ

Though if you were thinking about Shadowsun (kind of our Ghaz hah hah), yes they were apparently afraid to make her too good, as she is not featured in any top Tau list, as far as I know anyway.

A lot of conjecture here and a tad too much feelings already here.

Point being, Ghaz sucks on every level and we should step up as community and point out the problem to the company we are supporting.

PiñaColada wrote:
The rules are temporary in the sense that they can change (by errata or new edition, or strats)

In theory, yes. In reality, there a not a whole lot of datasheets that have been changed to improve the corresponding unit outside of model releases. This might very much be what Ghaz is for the next ten years.

but this model is likely to stick around 10-15 years and if they see that Ork sculpts sell then they're inclined to make more (I hope).

I think they have seen that ork sculpts sell with their buggy release, otherwise we wouldn't be having Ghaz right now.

The dream is that they realise no-one ever uses him in tournaments ITC or otherwise and balances him thereafter.

I heavily doubt so. GW is still green when it comes to monitoring and understanding the health of their game, and their obvious inaptitude when it comes to orks doesn't exactly help.
Today, we can reasonably expect them to catch and apply decent fixes to OP stuff in a fairly reasonable time frame, which is leagues from where they were three years ago.
But picking up weak units and helping and making them good again? They still try to fix those with heavy-handed point drops and sometimes a hit-or-miss stratagem. Bad units tend to stay bad units more often than not.

Unless there is some stratagem or specialist mob massively increasing the viability of foot-slogging boyz (and thus goff) or the Goff psychic power is completely insane (like fight twice), the new Thrakka with no changes is only slightly better than a pair of goff melee dreads, so he should cost about 180, not 280.

They've had plenty of chances to make burna boyz or the stompa playable, but that hasn't happened.

I don't really see why I should buy Ghaz now and hope that maybe he becomes playable later. Sure, maybe he's fine for a casual game or two, but if I'm playing causally I'm also playing fluffy and for me that means pure Evil Sunz because that's how my army is painted, and he's a Goff so...

Shame, it's a real nice model, I just don't have a use for it.

Been thinking on the clever talk spell. You could totally use it with a small detachment of mobile models such as deffkoptas. Tag a unit with unpleasent overwatch with the spell. Charge in the koptas then follow up with a non axe unit to actually kill the target or pin them down. Then fall back with the koptas and with the blood axe trait you can charge again on the next tagged unit.

Thoughts?

cody.d. wrote:
Been thinking on the clever talk spell. You could totally use it with a small detachment of mobile models such as deffkoptas. Tag a unit with unpleasent overwatch with the spell. Charge in the koptas then follow up with a non axe unit to actually kill the target or pin them down. Then fall back with the koptas and with the blood axe trait you can charge again on the next tagged unit.

Thoughts?

Add ramming speed and you have a castle breaker.

Yeah, that really could work. The fact that the blood axe power doesn't have a range is huge! Is there any deny that works regardless of range? The stratagem ones I know of still requires you to be within 24" of the psyker with a unit, so placing the weirdboy all the way back in the corner should make this nigh unstoppable. (Visible to the psyker shouldn't be too much of an issue, just put him on top of a ruin or some such).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't think GW are scared of Orks being competitive, I think they don't want to make all their new models too good because then people, such as myself, claim that they create rules with sales in mind. Ork models, given our Buggies that released and given Ghaz, are the exceptions that prove the rule.

The rule has been proven to be wrong so often that it's really odd people still claim that - if you'd put the GW designers into an escape room which requires them to write good rules to escape, there is a high chance they'd starve.

The alternative is simply that GW don't care enough to properly test Ork units so throw them out without really considering the competitive element. Likely they thought Ghaz is better than he is. I suspect all the new Ad Mech models will be ridiculous, given the love they are getting from GW at the moment. We've only got to look at their new tank for evidence of this.

This is the exact thing I'm talking about. When they design something like sisters or marines or admech or CSM, they throw all these tiny synergies everywhere, mechanics that lock into each other and clever unit interactions. Like Phil Kelly did in the 4th edition ork codex.
It feels like they just don't care about those things when designing orks. Thrakka got +1S, +1 damage -1AP, +2" and more 4 wounds. They actually came up with a decent solution to not have him shot off the board in one turn and degradation is done well, too. Unlock him for all clans, slap 50 points on for all that and then it feels like he went straight from the drawing board into the book. Or they played him once and missed that he actually lost a lot along with his INFANTRY keyword. Or they caught it and came to the conclusion it wouldn't be too bad.

No matter which one it was, GW as a whole did not do a good job. So in my opinion, the only way to tell GW that they messed up is by not buying the product. Sadly, the amount of money I have is less than the cost of all models I still want to have. Right now, I'm really struggling whether to buy Ghaz or a model that I can enjoy playing on battlefield.

Well, at least PA looks decent. Rant over.

Ghaz is a disappointment, even if the model is a badass, we should hope we get more juicy stuff with the book.

Let's wait and see how much we should rant a week more

Ragnar leak shows a power level of 6. With his 10 attacks during the first turn confirmed.

Leaked profile on the rumors of PA.

Price comparison hurts...badly

It's hard to care about this release any more

I'm torn, its such a great model and I'm a Goff, How can I not have our Supreme leader? But I don't need More Megas or Nobs, and the marine crap I'll Give to a Friend who's out of work thanks to corona. I really shouldn't buy it, BUT I WANTS GHAZZ!

they havnt done anything to fix the wartrike so i highly doubt they'd fix ghaz.

I'm still buying the box. The nobz/manz actually would be useful for me anyway.

I dont play ITC/ETC so his faults are less noticable to me. Unless he works on his own though i probably wouldnt use him much just because Goff....stink....especially for vehicle heavy tactics.

You can drop him in a Deathskullz or Evil Sunz detachment without issue, so if you wanna run him, just clear like 300 pts (ugh) for the guy.

For me, that would basically mean dropping a naut or 15 lootas+3 koptas or 12 warbikers from a well working list. I'm not seeing it.

I’m buying ghaz boxset and maybe starting space marines finally....
I do this because GW doesn’t see bad ghaz sales as poor rules writing but simply poor ork sales and just doesn’t produce as much content for us if orks don’t sell...
ghaz is a great model that simply needs a few small rules tweaks to make decent... buy him and feedback...
I’m using the old ghaz model as the mega nob boss.
The new ghaz you can use as ghaz for fun or use as the strategem warboss if you’re cool with using a massive model.

The only cool thing with this ork box is the infiltrators are not tied to space wolves so you can use them in any marine army. Plus Ragnar will be easy to sell for a premium since his rules and pricing seem competitive which will make him an easy resell.

Perhaps Ghaz will be just 200 points, no more, and sod power levels. This would make him viable, though still not comp (because no using the warboss strat). we can dream, points haven’t leaked yet

Thomas Douch places second with green tide and two koptas: https://www.40kstats.com/rumbleinromford

Models are eternal. Rules aren't, and thats even more true now than ever before.

If you like Ghaz buy him. If hes unusable it won't last that long. Just like most OP stuff has been nerfed in the place of 6 months top. Many weaker things have became better.

And yeah, maybe is not a problem of being weak but of having rules being badly written. Until The Greater Good you could not put a Bullgryn in your Tempestus Scion detachment without losing your doctrines. They fixed it. I don't know why the feth they waited that long instead of doing a small FAQ but whatever. The point is: They change and fix things much faster than before