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More brainstorming: One of our players pointed out to me that the spanner stratagem isn't that bad when you assume that you get to shoot your lootas twice, as I'd otherwise spend two CP to re-roll their shot anyways. If they (or at least parts of them) survive even longer, it's actually cheaper then CP re-rolls. The higher chance to get three shots kind of evens out lost deff gun.

So, what's the mathematical average hit percentage on a Evil Sunz gunwagon with da boomer kustom job boosted with the "Visions in the smoke" psychic power? And then with/without More Dakka?

If, big if, the persicope stacks with that kustom job it seems like that thing has a lot of potential then.

Edit: Fixed errors

 Jidmah wrote:
More brainstorming: One of our players pointed out to me that the spanner stratagem isn't that bad when you assume that you get to shoot your lootas twice, as I'd otherwise spend two CP to re-roll their shot anyways. If they (or at least parts of them) survive even longer, it's actually cheaper then CP re-rolls. The higher chance to get three shots kind of evens out lost deff gun.

Do Lootas really last that long to justify it though? On a unit that guzzles CP already?

Mine often do. With a good spot to shoot from and enough pressure applied to the opponent, they often cannot afford to waste shooting on gretchin. They shot them once to draw CP and that's it.

 Jidmah wrote:
Mine often do. With a good spot to shoot from and enough pressure applied to the opponent, they often cannot afford to waste shooting on gretchin. They shot them once to draw CP and that's it.

I was sort of wondering if something like this might crop up:

Forktress in a Snakebite detachment, 15 Lootas inside (or 2 units of 10).

Battlewagon now for 125 points (with grot riggers), a 3+/5++/6+++, healing 1 wound a turn on a 2+. Park it in cover, and it has a 2+ save. Thing seems damn hard to shift and keeps your lootas toasty.

Given we aren't using grot shields each round, that spanner thing would bug me less.

Can you put two units in a Bastion or other fortification?

I thought it was limited to one unit plus as many characters as you like.

I run my lootas in a truck to protect them, (deffskulls) so it’ll work for them right? The strat is pregame so this is one way to get the benefit from a strat while in transport, neat. I mean if I can regularly get 2 shots at least out of them that’s great and heck I think it might be worth it to even drop them to 8+spanner to get it just for 1 cp, I assume the spanner is counted for the number restriction , would love to be wrong on that, then it’s 9+spanner.

Still going through everything, but Dreaded Death Machine is definitely one of my favorite Strategems so far.

1CP to make a Deff Dread cause an additional attack each time it kills a model with the base attacks? Now it can cut its way through elite infantry units just as well as vehicles. It's also usable when it fights back in your opponent's fighting phase.

Also, regarding the big mek's KFF, I'm going to guess that they don't list it as equipment since it has different rules than the standard KFF wargear.

But still, since it's listed as an ability instead of equipment, that would make it free until they put out a FAQ to confirm their intentions.

If it's not free, then they either have to increase the points of the unit, make a new K-KFF wargear entry, or they could just erratta the old one to this version. We'll have to wait and see.

 acme2468 wrote:
I run my lootas in a truck to protect them, (deffskulls) so it’ll work for them right? The strat is pregame so this is one way to get the benefit from a strat while in transport, neat. I mean if I can regularly get 2 shots at least out of them that’s great and heck I think it might be worth it to even drop them to 8+spanner to get it just for 1 cp, I assume the spanner is counted for the number restriction , would love to be wrong on that, then it’s 9+spanner.

Just thinking on my previous thought... the new Deathskull power with Lootas does seem really good.

Boosts them to AP-2. If you are already hiding them in a truck, then Deathskull is totally appropriate for the unit anyway. Can make Lootas more likely to melt the Beakies they should be able to.

Keeping my powder dry on these changes until after FAQ's

I'm convinced that the intent will be that Ghaz benefits fully from all of his own buffs, you just won't be able to jump or transport him.

As it currently stands a regular warboss with the strat and relic claw is just better in all regards which is a sad state of affairs for such an awesome new model.

The KFF working in combat is clearly not the intent either, I mean how would that even work? the whole point of it is that it's like a gungan bubble that extends all around the Mek. No way anybody can claim it works in melee with a straight face.

Some will though of course.

Pickled_egg wrote:
The KFF working in combat is clearly not the intent either, I mean how would that even work? the whole point of it is that it's like a gungan bubble that extends all around the Mek. No way anybody can claim it works in melee with a straight face.

Some will though of course.

Well the Mek clearly looted it from the Militarum Tempestus, and made it Orkier

REFRACTOR FIELD GENERATOR
The Adeptus Mechanicus gifted the 133rd Lambdan Lions with this advanced refractor field generator after the Lions successfully cleansed Lurea IX of a Genestealer infestation.
133RD LAMBDAN LIONS model only. Friendly 133RD LAMBDAN LIONS models have a 5+ invulnerable save whilst within 6" of a model from your army with this Relic.

Too bad subcultures are instead clan cultures, which limits their use.
Lists spamming Mek Guns are quite good with Grot Mobs, rerolling 1s with an attional 6++ as bonus. Sweet.
Boomboys might be cool for Kanz, Koptas might also work but i don`t know if they will do more damage as DS or BB. Don`t want to do the math for that one.^^ Guess 5 Koptas it`s BB, 1 Kopta DS.
Pyromaniacs Bommas feels kinda like a trap. A Bommer will do 10 MW if he gets to drop twice and if there are squads of 10 both turns which will become 13-14 as Pyros. Most cases its more like 5-6 will become 7-8.
Might still work as an airwing battalion using all 3, if one would play them anyway.

All other subcultures are trash in comparison with better clan traits.


DS and ES powers are fantastic, freebooters might work as well. Dump the others. That Goff one is a bad joke.


Strategems are fine, some bad, some fantastic. Love that dragsta strategem, gonna use that one a lot. Especially combined with 3 Custom Dragstas that can auto-tunnel every time they want to .
That extra 12" for Flash Gits is fantastic. Too bad it doesn`t work in a waggon, but might be usefull from time to time.

But those Custom Jobs are freaking awesome. 4+ BS Morka, Pimped Gattling Gorka, 3+ 5++ Waggon & 3 autojumping dragstas? Yes, please!
Gotta skip the other options expect the Zzapa / Kannon upgrade if it gets FAQ`d.


Good thing i have 150 grot, gonna need a lot of CP now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:

 acme2468 wrote:
I run my lootas in a truck to protect them, (deffskulls) so it’ll work for them right? The strat is pregame so this is one way to get the benefit from a strat while in transport, neat. I mean if I can regularly get 2 shots at least out of them that’s great and heck I think it might be worth it to even drop them to 8+spanner to get it just for 1 cp, I assume the spanner is counted for the number restriction , would love to be wrong on that, then it’s 9+spanner.

Just thinking on my previous thought... the new Deathskull power with Lootas does seem really good.

Boosts them to AP-2. If you are already hiding them in a truck, then Deathskull is totally appropriate for the unit anyway. Can make Lootas more likely to melt the Beakies they should be able to.

2 x 9 DS Lootas with Spanna strat in a waggon sounds good to me.
Helps with the main problem lootas had with kiling primaris and saves a lot CP.

I really like goonhammer's idea of bringing 3 quad-rokkit dreads as boom boyz with the BS4 upgrade.

And drop them out of Tellyport? That could be pretty devastating, but I think youll still want at least a Saw with them, so they're less likely to be absolutely awful once your opponent tags them in CC.

I worked out some math and it takes 2 SAGs and an SSAG to deal Ghaz the 4 Wounds per phase with a minimal of overkill, with average rolls and including Dakka×3 but not including any Kultur bonuses. Just some food for thought, since the Goonhammer article got me thinking.

 Jidmah wrote:
I really like goonhammer's idea of bringing 3 quad-rokkit dreads as boom boyz with the BS4 upgrade.

Yeah thats mean. Need to magnetise the next ones i have only KMB and saws.

1CP to give three megatrakks fights twice is pretty wild, my vote for most appealing kustom job in the book, and tied for best thing in the whole book with the 1CP 4++ warboss strat. They already had great shooting, and for 1CP, you double what was already pretty decent melee. 8 STR 8 -2 1D3 damage attacks per combat phase + 50% chance for 1d3 MW for only 100 points on a non-degrading 9 wound 10" move vehicle that also has 2d3 + 1 STR 8 -2 3 damage shots and 12 STR 5 shots?

And it's even better than that, because it's not just 8 attacks, but you get a second pile in and second consolidate - though I guess the trade-off is you can get interrupted on too.

3 of these looks like an auto-take to me in almost any list at this point, probably as DS, though ES is pretty attractive too now because you get big benefit out of both the added move/charge and the ability to advance without losing accuracy.

If we wanna take MANz now, are ES still the defacto choice? Or is that +1 to hit detachment worth looking at?

Going down to a 3+ on my klaws would make me incredibly happy without a baby sitting over priced banner.

I think ES still wins out handily, the problem with ork combat units has always been getting them into combat, not what they do once they're there.

I mean I guess if you run them in a vehicle and don't plan on dismounting and charging them until T3 it might be worth thinking about...but even then if your vehicle gets blown up before you can move it twice then you're stranded with a pathetically slow unit.

yukishiro1 wrote:
1CP to give three megatrakks fights twice is pretty wild, my vote for most appealing kustom job in the book, and tied for best thing in the whole book with the 1CP 4++ warboss strat. They already had great shooting, and for 1CP, you double what was already pretty decent melee. 8 STR 8 -2 1D3 damage attacks per combat phase + 50% chance for 1d3 MW for only 100 points on a non-degrading 9 wound 10" move vehicle that also has 2d3 + 1 STR 8 -2 3 damage shots and 12 STR 5 shots?

And it's even better than that, because it's not just 8 attacks, but you get a second pile in and second consolidate - though I guess the trade-off is you can get interrupted on too.

3 of these looks like an auto-take to me in almost any list at this point, probably as DS, though ES is pretty attractive too now because you get big benefit out of both the added move/charge and the ability to advance without losing accuracy.

As pointed out above, the weapon profile of scrapjets isn't actually that great because of their 4+ WS, they are roughly equal to one nob with PK. I wouldn't waste a CP on fighting twice for that, especially since you really want to shoot with them and not be stuck in combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
If we wanna take MANz now, are ES still the defacto choice? Or is that +1 to hit detachment worth looking at?

Going down to a 3+ on my klaws would make me incredibly happy without a baby sitting over priced banner.

It's still at ES. The worth of a melee unit is decided by its ability to get into combat, not by its actual strength. The stratagem to increase their damage by one will pretty much solve any issues you have after the charge. Especially dual killsaws with flat 3 damage seem pretty insane to me.

I don't know, fighting twice with skrapjets in conjunction with the proccing of MWs in the charge phase is a pretty tasty combo I think..

It can be, but as Jid said, our MSJs want to be shooting. And they can't do that if they get stuck in CC.

 Jidmah wrote:


It's still at ES. The worth of a melee unit is decided by its ability to get into combat, not by its actual strength. The stratagem to increase their damage by one will pretty much solve any issues you have after the charge. Especially dual killsaws with flat 3 damage seem pretty insane to me.

Yeah, fair. That +1 damage is sexy AF. Klaws now reliably kill Primaris / Bikes, and average 3 damage for Cents and the like... I'd still probably keep the Klaw / Kustom Shoota, 43 points is probably too much for MANz, even with the bonus attack.
I guess it would work with fight twice too, so you could have a really, really big turn with the Nobs.

PiñaColada wrote:
I don't know, fighting twice with skrapjets in conjunction with the proccing of MWs in the charge phase is a pretty tasty combo I think..

If you take 3, it's okay I guess. The problem is we really don't want these things in combat, as Jid said. They can fight in combat if we *really* need them too.. but given all this gak that has been tossed our way, we might have to be very, very picky with upgrades. I can just see Orks burning through 6+ CP on pregame strats now.

You get two rerolls to hit, two rerolls to wound, and two rerolls for damage for each scrapjet as DS thanks to the interaction. That means you're effectively *much* better than WS3.

8 str 8 -2 1d3 damage attacks at WS4 rerolling two rolls to hit, two wound, and two damage, plus a 50% chance for 1d3 mortal wounds. That's sick combat potential.

yukishiro1 wrote:
You get two rerolls to hit, two rerolls to wound, and two rerolls for damage for each scrapjet as DS thanks to the interaction. That means you're effectively *much* better than WS3.

8 str 8 -2 1d3 damage attacks at WS4 rerolling two rolls to hit, two wound, and two damage, plus a 50% chance for 1d3 mortal wounds. That's sick combat potential.

That's about three Terminators worth of damage. Worse, actually-they have an extra attack, and all their attacks are -3 rather than -2.

I don't get the argument that you don't want them in combat. Obviously that's true but charging things that you can kill and effectively gain movement is not a bad thing. And there's plenty of fairly decent units that you have a good chance of killing outright with them and spending 1CP pregame for unlocking that potential is pretty darn viable IMO.

I reckon we'll see that in several of the new buggy lists that will emerge from this

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
More brainstorming: One of our players pointed out to me that the spanner stratagem isn't that bad when you assume that you get to shoot your lootas twice, as I'd otherwise spend two CP to re-roll their shot anyways. If they (or at least parts of them) survive even longer, it's actually cheaper then CP re-rolls. The higher chance to get three shots kind of evens out lost deff gun.

Do Lootas really last that long to justify it though? On a unit that guzzles CP already?

On an army that guzzles even more CP now

I'm convinced this entire book was designed to create alternatives to Loota stars. Virtually half the strategems now are one CP to upgrade a unit.

I've charged with Scrapjets plenty of times

They've rarely impressed me in CC. Doubling their attacks helps, but they also probably aren't staying around very long once they hit combat anyway. It's their shooting profile which has won me games. CC was more out of desperation.

I agree on buggy lists becoming more popular, though. The Dragsta with that CP boost is downright bonkers. You can place them wherever you want on the board every turn, and potentially "fire and fade" one of them. ES and DS love this. I think I'd still field them as Deathskulls... 2 4+ hits with a re-roll sounds perfectly acceptable to me given we also have a damage re-roll.

 JNAProductions wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
You get two rerolls to hit, two rerolls to wound, and two rerolls for damage for each scrapjet as DS thanks to the interaction. That means you're effectively *much* better than WS3.

8 str 8 -2 1d3 damage attacks at WS4 rerolling two rolls to hit, two wound, and two damage, plus a 50% chance for 1d3 mortal wounds. That's sick combat potential.

That's about three Terminators worth of damage. Worse, actually-they have an extra attack, and all their attacks are -3 rather than -2.

What terminators are you talking about? But I mean yeah, I don't disagree really - that's a lot of melee power. You have enough melee power on a megatrakk fighting twice to kill an average T7 10 wound vehicle in one round of combat (admittedly it's only a 50% chance, though it gets a lot better if you chip a couple wounds off with shooting first). That's pretty sick for a 100 point vehicle with 10 inch non-degrading movement.

I mean you're obviously not going to want to charge cents with them or anything. But I don't see the argument that you're better off sitting at 24 inches shooting stuff with them - they are almost 100% guaranteed to die in your opponent's turn if you do that, whereas if you charge, you get in a large amount of extra damage and force a unit to fall back to be able to shoot at you, diminishing their offensive potential.

You are paying a lot of points for a megatrakk's combat abilities, not making use of them makes them an inefficient choice IMO. And if you do plan to utilize the combat ability, 1 CP to double the combat potential of 3 of them is a no-brainer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
I've charged with Scrapjets plenty of times

They've rarely impressed me in CC. Doubling their attacks helps, but they also probably aren't staying around very long once they hit combat anyway. It's their shooting profile which has won me games. CC was more out of desperation.

I agree on buggy lists becoming more popular, though. The Dragsta with that CP boost is downright bonkers. You can place them wherever you want on the board every turn, and potentially "fire and fade" one of them. ES and DS love this. I think I'd still field them as Deathskulls... 2 4+ hits with a re-roll sounds perfectly acceptable to me given we also have a damage re-roll.

They're not staying around period...that's the trouble with buggies. It seems like a pretty weird game to me where they're living longer out of combat than in combat.

Agree that the dragsta kustom job is also outrageously good. I might have to revise my opinion - that is also a strong candidate for best thing in the book.

But it's not just doubling the attacks, it's two activations isn't it? That's a lot of free movement on a slow-ish unit that you get to utilise (on top of actual MWs and attacks). I certainly think there's room to get tricky with that and a singular CP isn't a crazy investment for it. It's definitely not the best kustom job (do we start calling these KJs now?) out there but I think it's quite a bit better than many here seem to allude to.

Edit: Regarding Jump-Shoot-Jump on the SJD it's indeed fantastic. I already did this with my ES one through drive-by krumpin' so now that DS have it it's about to get crazy with their rerolls.

Honestly, the movement Kustom Job is probably better for Scrapjets, no? Going to M12" sounds good to me. These boys are chonky. It's hard to move them.