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What's the point of going to M12 if you're planning to sit at 24 inches shooting and avoiding combat?

You can get that already just by going ES - though it's not only +2 movement, it's 1d6+3 extra movement, since you get 2 movement from ES, and then you can advance with no penalty as well. And then you also get access to fire and fade for a whole new 13+d6 movement after shooting if you want, for 1CP.

Generic SM Terminators with Powerfists.

yukishiro1 wrote:
What's the point of going to M12 if you're planning to sit at 24 inches shooting and avoiding combat?

You can get that already just by going ES - though it's not only +2 movement, it's 1d6+3 extra movement, since you get 2 movement from ES, and then you can advance with no penalty as well.

You typically take them as DS for the invul and re-rolls.

they are really unwieldly to use to be honest... Once you start fielding 3-4 buggies on the board, it's really hard to position them how you want. I've found on the boards I've played on it's horribly bogged down because we play with loads of terrain (which I like, it just sucks balls for my mech army).

Oh yeah, terrain is the real killer (I agree, it's nice though) for mech armies. Those buggy bases are getting blocked quite easily and nothing's worse than seeing that the buggy would've made it through had it not been on a base.

Well of course you take them DS normally. I just don't see how another 2 inches of movement is really going to help if your strategy is to plink from 24 inches. 10 inches is still a lot of maneuverability if you're not looking to get close enough to charge. I don't think that's worth the CP at all.

I agree though on how hard it is to maneuver multiple vehicles on a terrain-heavy board...I just don't think adding to the movement characteristic does much to fix that.

If you want a shooting platform that can maneuver easily surely you just want to take dragstas with that kustom job instead, then you get to literally re-position all three of them every turn as long as they're outside 9 inches.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
Generic SM Terminators with Powerfists.

Yeah, those do have quite similar combat potential (the flat 3 damage more or less balances out with the 2 rerolls for wound/damage + ability to pile in and consolidate twice). They also have three fewer wounds and two less toughness (though they do get better saves), move half as fast (though do get free deepstrike), shoot far worse, and lose efficacy as they take damage, which the buggy doesn't. And cost only 10 points less.

The comparison is actually quite a good one. Like terminators, megatrakks are only worth the points if you've got a plan to utilize them in both the shooting and combat phases. Otherwise you're paying a bunch of points for close combat skills you aren't actually getting any use out of. Now obviously that plan doesn't have to be (and probably shouldn't be) charge them straight in T1. But if your megatrakks typically never see combat I think you'd be better off trading them for something else.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Well of course you take them DS normally. I just don't see how another 2 inches of movement is really going to help if your strategy is to plink from 24 inches. 10 inches is still a lot of maneuverability if you're not looking to get close enough to charge. I don't think that's worth the CP at all.

I agree though on how hard it is to maneuver multiple vehicles on a terrain-heavy board...I just don't think adding to the movement characteristic does much to fix that.

If you want a shooting platform that can maneuver easily surely you just want to take dragstas with that kustom job instead, then you get to literally re-position all three of them every turn as long as they're outside 9 inches.

The bonus movement can help with positioning, as the rockets being 2 feet can be problematic when you're maneuvering around terrain; 2" can actually make a difference.

They also aren't substitutes in terms of targets; you often want both for a TAC style list. Megatrakk has some decent chaff clearing, and the dragsta threatens targets it can't *as* well, especially as a deathskull. d6 re-rollable damage, AP-3, and it potentially generates mortal wounds.

I'm not sure the CC potential thing is as interesting to me as movement. That being said, you might not want either. It'll really depend once I start brewing lists how much CP I'm spending... If we also tellyporta units, Orks are gonna start the game with single digit CP from 18.

Right, if you're taking 3 dragstas and 3 scrapjets, I can't see that spending 1CP to make the scrapjets 2" quicker is going to be a great choice, as you're obviously spending the 1CP for the dragstas since I don't think there is any world where that doesn't always make sense.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Right, if you're taking 3 dragstas and 3 scrapjets, I can't see that spending 1CP to make the scrapjets 2" quicker is going to be a great choice, as you're obviously spending the 1CP for the dragstas since I don't think there is any world where that doesn't always make sense.

Yeah, that stratagem is honestly probably an autotake if you even take *one* dragsta. It's that good. It can try to fish out Whirlwinds / TFCs, it can start anywhere in your deployment zone for all it matters for how you play (IE, you can always hide them)... if they get tagged with something like a Tremor shell, that doesn't absolutely nothing to stop it from doing what you want.
If they survive till the end, they can easily snag you recon from anywhere on the board.

Dragstas were already good, and probably even became a green tier unit for the army if upgraded this way.

I think they're an auto-take in almost any list at this point, TBH.

I have revised my opinion, it is the best thing in the book. I still think the fight twice for scrapjets is fantastic, but the dragsta one just makes the unit so much better period, no matter how you use it. I can't see why you'd ever take a dragsta again without it.


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Oh, one weird thing about it - RAW, doesn't that mean you can choose whether to use the jump ability if you roll a 1 to a 3 for advancing, but you HAVE to use it if you roll a 4-6? Or do we think it makes it always optional, even if you roll a 4-6? I would far the former, which is...odd, if arguably rather orky.

On a side note:

KFF Mek with its broken KFF will.. probably get FAQed. But it seems like it can literally take no options now?

Wonder if we aren't getting a new Mek then. Seems to be based on the old pewter model which had a choppa.

Yeah the KFF sheet is a huge dumpster fire. Messed up in so many ways, and no possible way to tell which were intended and which weren't.

There's some cheeky things here but also some missed opportunities.

I'm a happy bunny though, all of the buggies were buffed, Evil Sunz have the best psychic power of all IMO and there are a few more options to try and make other (particularly Grot) units viable.

We lack an outright power boost but this gives us more options and some of them do seem formidable.

Dragstas with the stratagem and kustom job are brilliant.

KBBs seem decent with their stratagem.

I'm even tempted by Snazzwagons, not least of all because I'm currently in the middle of painting one up. A 1CP "ignore any shot" and -1 to hit inherent should allow me to get them into position.

Burna Bombers look hot (pun intended).

Even bikers get to be strength 5, that's not bad.

Mathhammer time:

Is a BS4 Morkanaut with full rerolls (Evil Suns) better to use with Kustom Ammo than an SSAG?

yukishiro1 wrote:
You get two rerolls to hit, two rerolls to wound, and two rerolls for damage for each scrapjet as DS thanks to the interaction. That means you're effectively *much* better than WS3.

That's a 2.25 hits on average per fight phase, WS3 is 2.66 hits. So your statement is just flat out wrong.

8 str 8 -2 1d3 damage attacks at WS4 rerolling two rolls to hit, two wound, and two damage, plus a 50% chance for 1d3 mortal wounds. That's sick combat potential.

It's not. It's ~5 damage to a T7 vehicle, ~4 damage to T8,, two dead primaris or five dead guardsmen. All of which means that your scrapjet is stuck in combat and can't use it's rokkit cannon, big shootas and wing missiles next turn.
Nobz with PK are better in combat than scrapjets, and they see no play because they suck at killing stuff. Don't waste CP on upgrading something from bad to mediocre.

tulun wrote:
Mathhammer time:

Is a BS4 Morkanaut with full rerolls (Evil Suns) better to use with Kustom Ammo than an SSAG?

I mean, it's certainly more reliable. But i don't think the maximum damage would be higher. I also like freebootas, BS3 is also hilarious and fun.

tulun wrote:
Mathhammer time:

Is a BS4 Morkanaut with full rerolls (Evil Suns) better to use with Kustom Ammo than an SSAG?

Why not a BS4 Morkanaut that uses kustom ammo for itself.... its mainly the pts difference between the two, but 6d3 zzap shots, 2 kmb shots, 24 big shoota shots and 4 rokkits all at BS 4 is pretty damn juicy... have it as freebooters and try get it the +1 to hit and that is an eye watering amount of accurate firepower

I'm honestly kind of wondering if a Biker army would be viable now.

Ahem, I hate to say, but I am curious about theorycrafting a Snakebites Biker clan.

They are tough to give a 6+++ to, so that would actually be ideal. A Bikerboss w/ the WL trait and a Wartrike with the Snazztrike. 4++/6+++ with 8 wounds and a 4+/5++/6+++ with 8 wounds.

Then a big mob of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with 4+/6+++ and +1S on the charge for Big Choppas or Choppas. That seems pretty GD effective to me for a suboptimal clan. A 12 man Biker mob with S5 and +1 to wound could do some dirty. You could also throw a -1 to hit on the Warbiker mob or Biker Nobs and actually make them pretty GD tough to move.

 TedNugent wrote:
I'm honestly kind of wondering if a Biker army would be viable now.

Ahem, I hate to say, but I am curious about theorycrafting a Snakebites Biker clan.

They are tough to give a 6+++ to, so that would actually be ideal. A Bikerboss w/ the WL trait and a Wartrike with the Snazztrike. 4++/6+++ with 8 wounds and a 4+/5++/6+++ with 8 wounds.

Then a big mob of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with 4+/6+++ and +1S on the charge for Big Choppas or Choppas. That seems pretty GD effective to me for a suboptimal clan. A 12 man Biker mob with S5 and +1 to wound could do some dirty. You could also throw a -1 to hit on the Warbiker mob or Biker Nobs and actually make them pretty GD tough to move.

I still think Warbikers need to drop 3-5pts before being viable. Costing more than Marine bikers, Reavers and Windriders is silly. I want to use my Bikers again but they just take up a huge chunk of the army


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id rather take units of big shoota koptas

 deffrekka wrote:

tulun wrote:
Mathhammer time:

Is a BS4 Morkanaut with full rerolls (Evil Suns) better to use with Kustom Ammo than an SSAG?

Why not a BS4 Morkanaut that uses kustom ammo for itself.... its mainly the pts difference between the two, but 6d3 zzap shots, 2 kmb shots, 24 big shoota shots and 4 rokkits all at BS 4 is pretty damn juicy... have it as freebooters and try get it the +1 to hit and that is an eye watering amount of accurate firepower

BS4 with full rerolls is better than a 3+.

Honestly the biggest problem I see is that WC9... you really need 18-28 models near them to make it work.

tulun wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

tulun wrote:
Mathhammer time:

Is a BS4 Morkanaut with full rerolls (Evil Suns) better to use with Kustom Ammo than an SSAG?

Why not a BS4 Morkanaut that uses kustom ammo for itself.... its mainly the pts difference between the two, but 6d3 zzap shots, 2 kmb shots, 24 big shoota shots and 4 rokkits all at BS 4 is pretty damn juicy... have it as freebooters and try get it the +1 to hit and that is an eye watering amount of accurate firepower

BS4 with full rerolls is better than a 3+.

I didnt see the ES part but yea Evil Suns Morka with kustom Ammon would be crazy good if you can get that power off.

A few things im looking at is a BS 4 Morka, a Gorka with the Slug Gubbins with Kustom Ammo or 3 Deff Dreads either with 4 KMB each with BS4, as thats 81pts a Dread, and tbh if they get locked in combat with chaff a single klaw/saw wont save them really with 3 attacks each or 4 rokkits a Dread at BS 4 as Boomboys.but thats 93pts a Dread. Im leaning more towards the Gorka with Slug Gubbins just for the 48 shots with Kustom Ammo

 deffrekka wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
I'm honestly kind of wondering if a Biker army would be viable now.

Ahem, I hate to say, but I am curious about theorycrafting a Snakebites Biker clan.

They are tough to give a 6+++ to, so that would actually be ideal. A Bikerboss w/ the WL trait and a Wartrike with the Snazztrike. 4++/6+++ with 8 wounds and a 4+/5++/6+++ with 8 wounds.

Then a big mob of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with 4+/6+++ and +1S on the charge for Big Choppas or Choppas. That seems pretty GD effective to me for a suboptimal clan. A 12 man Biker mob with S5 and +1 to wound could do some dirty. You could also throw a -1 to hit on the Warbiker mob or Biker Nobs and actually make them pretty GD tough to move.

I still think Warbikers need to drop 3-5pts before being viable. Costing more than Marine bikers, Reavers and Windriders is silly. I want to use my Bikers again but they just take up a huge chunk of the army


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id rather take units of big shoota koptas

Big shoota Koptas are more expensive and the shooting is frankly inferior. You can also take a bigger unit of Big Choppa Nobs or Warbikers and make that +1S and -1 to hit shine.

I like the idea of small units of Koptas flying up and harassing units in ruins though. You could use the 3D6 charge strategem, the +6" movement and the Wartrike to get out there from the deployment zone onto a ruin double quick.

My brain is telling me "why not both?"

A big unit of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with a Warboss on WB and a Deffkilla with a 5-strong unit of Koptas clearing out units from ruins.

It seems to me it would work as Evil Sunz or Snakebites.

 Jidmah wrote:

It's ~5 damage to a T7 vehicle, ~4 damage to T8,, two dead primaris or five dead guardsmen. All of which means that your scrapjet is stuck in combat and can't use it's rokkit cannon, big shootas and wing missiles next turn.

I wouldn't call it "sick" combat potential but I look at the damage output you have there against vehicle targets and I see a vehicle that scraped past getting killed in my shooting phase being reliably polished off by my Skrapjet, who will be free to use it's rokkit cannon, big shootas, and wing missiles in the following turn.

 TedNugent wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
I'm honestly kind of wondering if a Biker army would be viable now.

Ahem, I hate to say, but I am curious about theorycrafting a Snakebites Biker clan.

They are tough to give a 6+++ to, so that would actually be ideal. A Bikerboss w/ the WL trait and a Wartrike with the Snazztrike. 4++/6+++ with 8 wounds and a 4+/5++/6+++ with 8 wounds.

Then a big mob of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with 4+/6+++ and +1S on the charge for Big Choppas or Choppas. That seems pretty GD effective to me for a suboptimal clan. A 12 man Biker mob with S5 and +1 to wound could do some dirty. You could also throw a -1 to hit on the Warbiker mob or Biker Nobs and actually make them pretty GD tough to move.

I still think Warbikers need to drop 3-5pts before being viable. Costing more than Marine bikers, Reavers and Windriders is silly. I want to use my Bikers again but they just take up a huge chunk of the army


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id rather take units of big shoota koptas

Big shoota Koptas are more expensive and the shooting is frankly inferior. You can also take a bigger unit of Big Choppa Nobs or Warbikers and make that +1S and -1 to hit shine.

I like the idea of small units of Koptas flying up and harassing units in ruins though. You could use the 3D6 charge strategem, the +6" movement and the Wartrike to get out there from the deployment zone onto a ruin double quick.

My brain is telling me "why not both?"

A big unit of Warbikers or Biker Nobs with a Warboss on WB and a Deffkilla with a 5-strong unit of Koptas clearing out units from ruins.

It seems to me it would work as Evil Sunz or Snakebites.

You can try it and let us know! But I still find the bikers too costly and fragile. Koptas maybe expensive individually but 165pts for a unit of 5, with fly, a better advance, an innate deepstrike (limited to board edges) and already base str 5 with potential more attacks with a smaller foot print just seems more cost effective. Youd have to take a crappy trike to advance and charge them but they are better for tying stuff up, board control and general harassment roles. 7 Warbikers for the cost of 5 Koptas isnt the best really unless you value the extra 12 shots.

If Warbikers were 18-20pts then hell yeah, but 23pts is too much, they die to quick even if you give them a -1 to hit. Nob bikers are an ever worse offender for over costed.

If you can make its work tell us! Id love to crack out my 24 Warbikers and 6 Nob Bikers again

Its a shame the Mek Workshop didn`t get any real buffs.

Only thing that might be kinda worth it is Getting a Gorkanaut with the Slug Gobbin KJ a Mek Workshop Kustom Job and get something "extra speshul" on a 4+ with vigilus strat to make his weapon D2.
(Which brings the question weather this is legal or not since both rules are named Custom Job but do different things?)
Play it as Evil Sunz and you get 48 shots, rerolling hits and doing 2 dmg each - thats about 11 dead Primaris with Kustom Ammo + 24 shots big shoota and the other gunz.

Freebooters Naut hitting on 3s sounds fun as well.

DS Naut can still use wreckers to wreck light vehicles as well.

Pretty sure the Mek Workshop specifies that a unit can only have 1 Kustom Job.

I think Mork vs Gork for shoot twice will simply vary by what you're facing.

Which I guess means you just gotta field one of each.

Both seem really good on paper, though.

I just don't like that WC9. The relic we could give the Weirdboy doesn't even help, as none of these powers seem to count as Waaagh psychic powers.

 flandarz wrote:
Pretty sure the Mek Workshop specifies that a unit can only have 1 Kustom Job.

For stratagems yeah but its datasheet ability?


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tulun wrote:
I think Mork vs Gork for shoot twice will simply vary by what you're facing.

Which I guess means you just gotta field one of each.

Both seem really good on paper, though.

I just don't like that WC9. The relic we could give the Weirdboy doesn't even help, as none of these powers seem to count as Waaagh psychic powers.

Im leaning more towards the Gorka as its better in combat and the volume of shots is pretty good but if you need the extra anti tank then bolt in a Morka instead. Ive never really struggled with anti tank with Orks unless ive rolled pretty poorly with Smashas

 deffrekka wrote:


Im leaning more towards the Gorka as its better in combat and the volume of shots is pretty good but if you need the extra anti tank then bolt in a Morka instead. Ive never really struggled with anti tank with Orks unless ive rolled pretty poorly with Smashas

Needs to be ported, though :( Tellyporta is looking so expensive... too many good upgrades.

That's basically 5 CP just for the Gork (Ramming speed + Kustom Job + tellyporta).

tulun wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:


Im leaning more towards the Gorka as its better in combat and the volume of shots is pretty good but if you need the extra anti tank then bolt in a Morka instead. Ive never really struggled with anti tank with Orks unless ive rolled pretty poorly with Smashas

Needs to be ported, though :( Tellyporta is looking so expensive... too many good upgrades.

Tbh either variant kinda needs to be ported, a Morka/Gorka simply wont survive with a 5++ and t8 in the day and age of shooty 40k

 deffrekka wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Pretty sure the Mek Workshop specifies that a unit can only have 1 Kustom Job.

For stratagems yeah but its datasheet ability?

So, Saga says that all the kustom jobs you include must be different and be given to different units, but it doesn't say a unit can't have more than one kustom job. Same deal with the workshop, a unit can only receive a kustom job once per turn, but it doesn't say a unit is limited to only having 1.

Since the new kustom jobs are applied before turn 1, then I think it's safe to say you can use the mek workshop turn 1 to give a unit one of the old kustom jobs. Whether that's worth it or not is up to you though lol