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And, to be fair, Orkz ain't exactly hurting for CC attacks, so getting 1 more per model isn't a huge buff for us. 30 Choppa Boyz with Warpath already have 151 attacks (including the Nob), which can beat down pretty much anything outside of Knights and other high T, Sv, and W units, even assuming you can only manage to get 100 of them, due to positioning.

Might be worth it for MANz or other "anti-armor" CC units, but even they rarely need the extra attack.

Basically, Ghaz is buffing things that we already do really well, when it'd be better if he was improving our weak areas. He'd be practically a no-brainer if he gave +1 shot at Range, or a 5+++ aura, or really anything that would improve our durability and ranged output.

Then throw in fists of gork to wound a knight on 2s and kick his attacks up to 7 to boot.

It's pretty sad that a gretchin can kool-aid man through a ruin wall, but ghaz runs smack into it and bounces off and has to spend the whole rest of the game waddling around it.

cody.d. wrote:
Then throw in fists of gork to wound a knight on 2s and kick his attacks up to 7 to boot.

And he can fight twice without dying, so he's potentially twice as efficient as Ghaz!

Yeah alright, that's just sad.

tulun wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Then throw in fists of gork to wound a knight on 2s and kick his attacks up to 7 to boot.

And he can fight twice without dying, so he's potentially twice as efficient as Ghaz!

What in the world would need 2 or 3 rounds of combat from that dude? XP Even gak with an invul like a smash captain die to 2 hits from the good old smashboss. And knights only get a 6+ armour against it while needing to pass 2 to live. 3 if it's a goff boss.

Though it should be mentioned, this guy can be on a bike for not that much of a cost. Yeah you can't swing twice without dying but you can also do your biz first turn if the stars align.

 wannabmoy wrote:
If anyone is interested in a deeper dive into Saga of the Beast for Orks, we break it down in our latest review. You can check it out below and feel free to leave your thoughts!

https://www.grimdarkfilthycasuals.com/orks-review-saghaz-of-the-beast/

It's a good read with some interesting thoughts, but the article as a whole feels like it was written by someone who is either not playing orks or at least hasn't played anything outside of the 8th edition's tournament meta.
There are many questionable ideas in there which clearly show a lack of experience with many units (tri-pointing with dreads? wartrike wants to be in combat? falling back from combat?). In addition only "game changer" categories seem to have gotten real love from the author, the others very much boil down to "this sucks, next!" without any real explanation to why.

So, it wasn't a waste of time to read and there is a nice angle on some units that the author apparently knows his way around like MANz or SJD. But there are better articles out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More shower thoughts:
SJD - Evil Suns or Deff Skulls?

The SJD with the stratagem might even pop up in otherwise pure infantry lists now. As it's likely that you will still be running deff skulls and evils suns in competitive lists, there is no cost of opportunity here.
Evil Suns:
Hit on 3+ for an average of 1.33 hits with the shokk rifle, rokkit average is .3333 hits.
Deff Skulls:
Hit on 4+, but re-roll to hit, to wound and damage
Math for SJD with re-rolls:
.25 chance to hit both, re-roll to hit goes to rokkit
.25 chance to hit one or the other, re-rolling miss into a hit
.25 chance to hit one or the other, failing the re-roll
.125 chance to hit neither, re-rolling miss into hit
.125 chance to hit neither, failing the re-roll
Total chance to hit 2 = 50%
Total chance to hit 1 = 37.5%
Total chance to miss = 12.5%
Average = 1.375 hits
Rokkit averages .1666 hits, with a 25% chance of getting a re-roll for another .0347 to hit for a total of average of .2014 hits.

So without the to wound and the damage roll, deff skulls are really close to ES, but without doing the math, they clearly pull ahead. ES does have a stratagem to save a second SJD from certain doom though.

Or, in other words, if you are running pure ES, you don't lose a whole lot, but if you want to optimize, SJD should be deff skulls.

Jump-Shoot-Jump on SJDs is fantastic and something I've talked about for quite a while, due to being an ES player. Yeah, I think SJDs are better as deffskulls but having that move being possible with two different buggies every turn sounds fantastic. I've thought about combining it with visions in the smoke to try and get a reliable character killer but the range on the psychic power screws that up (unless you're super desperate and it's the only way you can win, so you da jump and then cast it).

Question about the boomboyz specialist mob though. Do you guys think it's RAI that the squig bombs get the benefit of that kultur as well? They aren't specifically called out so I'm assuming no but tankbusta bombs get it and I'll feel sad if my little suicide monsters suddenly have a worse payload than the rest of the squad.

Edit: Also, Jidmah, surely the ES rokkit should average slightly higher than that due to DDD?

PiñaColada wrote:
...Question about the boomboyz specialist mob though. Do you guys think it's RAI that the squig bombs get the benefit of that kultur as well? They aren't specifically called out so I'm assuming no but tankbusta bombs get it and I'll feel sad if my little suicide monsters suddenly have a worse payload than the rest of the squad...

I'm afraid I have no insight into that question I'm afraid, but it did make me check out my tankbustas entry and I only just noticed that they get 1 str3 attack at 2+ in combat. Never noticed that before, I've always kind of treated them like tokens rather than actual interactive models.

PiñaColada wrote:
Edit: Also, Jidmah, surely the ES rokkit should average slightly higher than that due to DDD?

DDD is a 16.66% increase on all ork shooting, regardless of quality. When comparing ork units, you can ignore it as both sides would have it.

That's true, I didn't look/think close enough about the numbers you showed to realise you never included it. The fact that you didn't does strike me as odd though, seeing as these aren't their actual statistics in regards to efficiency presented now, merely correct ratios..

Edit: To clarify: If I wanted to know how effective my SJD is at damaging target X then something like DDD becomes relevant (if, arguably, marginally so). Otherwise you'd end up with incorrectly calculated damage per points ratios etc. Now as you mention it wouldn't be any more or less incorrect intra-codex but it would still show an incorrect value. And it'd be wonky anytime you compare it to anything outside the codex. Obviously it's not a huge deal either way, just strikes me as a slightly odd way of doing it.

On the gun that matters, the DS SJD gets 1.25 hits vs 1.33 hits. Negilble difference.

The re-roll damage causes it to easily go ahead. And having that 6+ invul save means it's easier to expose the thing when you inevitably have to. The ES fall back strat is nice, but won't necessarily get the thing out of danger (unlike the deep strike again, which probably will).

I think people are forgetting how little CP we seem to be having with all of these new upgrades, too. I don't think there will be room to spend 2 CP a turn on two falling back anyway.

the reroll the D6 damage alone makes Deathskullz superior to me. Ive had way too many times where i'll get 2/3 Shokkjump hits, fail to wound once, and only get 1 wound through on a 6 or less wound target and i rolled a friggen 1 on damage. Then reroll'd into a 5/6 and get the kill.

Doesnt help that i swear my chessex dice are rigged to roll 1s though. I've played 2 games in my new basement and both games even my opponent was like "you....are rolling a lot of 1s..." when i went to fire my SAG and i kid you not rolled snake eyes 3 times in a row (str, shots, to hit, reroll 1 die into a 1) lol. Also went through 2 boyz squads that game without rolling a single 6 save (not...joking...)

Went to my gaming store to grab some paints and figured i'd grab another shokkjump while i was there. Only dang buggy they actually sold during this lockdown on GW shipments was the shokkjump...feelsbad lol.

PiñaColada wrote:
That's true, I didn't look/think close enough about the numbers you showed to realise you never included it. The fact that you didn't does strike me as odd though, seeing as these aren't their actual statistics in regards to efficiency presented now, merely correct ratios..

Edit: To clarify: If I wanted to know how effective my SJD is at damaging target X then something like DDD becomes relevant (if, arguably, marginally so). Otherwise you'd end up with incorrectly calculated damage per points ratios etc. Now as you mention it wouldn't be any more or less incorrect intra-codex but it would still show an incorrect value. And it'd be wonky anytime you compare it to anything outside the codex. Obviously it's not a huge deal either way, just strikes me as a slightly odd way of doing it.

I have found that it's actually better to ignore DDD when making decisions when playing - the number of sixes you roll is purely luck-based and assuming the average goes up by 16.66% will just trick you into bad decisions. For some units the law of large numbers applies, like for bikes or shoota boyz shooting, but outside of that? Even a Gorkanaut or Dakkajet have high chances of rolling vastly more or less sixes than one in six.

As for comparing units cross-codex, I firmly believe doing so is idiotic anyways. Every codex has a completely different of ecosystem stratagems, faction traits, psychic powers, synergies and options available. Not to mention that it's nigh impossible to translate utility, movement speed, weapon range or battlefield roles into points. And then there is the whole issue of souping...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
On the gun that matters, the DS SJD gets 1.25 hits vs 1.33 hits. Negilble difference.

DS shokk rifle is 1.375 hits.

RE: ES VS DS for SJD after advancing.
I did the maths:
I've assumed for the DS SJD that the priority of the re-roll to hit would be shokk rifile, shokk rifle DDD extra shots, rokkit, rokkit DDD extra shots. So each step of the expectation applies the probability of having access to the re-roll and the probability that the re-roll is needed. EG first shot has a probability of 1 that the re-roll is available, second shot has probability of 1/2, other shots it gets more involved when you factor in DDD.
ES SJD expects to hit 0.778 shots per shot with the shokk rifle, so that's a total of 1.56 expected hits.
DS SJD expects to 0.885 hits with the first shot and expects 0.734 hits with the second shot, so that's a total of 1, so that's a total of 1.619 hits.
The variance will be in favour of DS SJD thanks to the ability to re-roll. So that expected number of hits or better is more realistic to expect. Whatever the wound rolls and damage rolls are, the DS SJD will come out on top. I CBF doing the comparison because after the hit rolls its clear the DS SJD will be strictly better.

The ES SJD is more likely to hit with the rokkit. Even if the rokkit was second in priority for the DS SJD, the likelihood of having a re-roll by then doesn't even push it close to ES SJD.
The ES SJD expects 0.389 hits with the rokkit.
The DS SJD expects 0.194 to 0.235 hits, where the result of 0.194 is assuming no re-rolls, and 0.235 assumes that you priortised the rokkit after the shokk rfile but before DDD extra shots for both weapons.


TL;DR The shokk rifle will perform better with Deathskulls and most likely compensate for the under performance of the rokkit. The rokkit will be more likely to hit with Evil Sunz but overall the lack of re-rolls means that it would have less consistent performance.

 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
On the gun that matters, the DS SJD gets 1.25 hits vs 1.33 hits. Negilble difference.

DS shokk rifle is 1.375 hits.

Hmm.

Yeah okay. I had as a rough ball park treat one of the die as .75 to hit, other as .5 to hit. But I suppose because this reroll is conditional you have to dig more into the weeds on hits in expectation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:


Went to my gaming store to grab some paints and figured i'd grab another shokkjump while i was there. Only dang buggy they actually sold during this lockdown on GW shipments was the shokkjump...feelsbad lol.

I ordered one with some extra paint so I could try to catch up on some hobby work..

They shut down the warehouses 24 hours later :(

The only benefit for ES sjd is you can jump shoot jump 2 however the lack of CPs are orks biggest limitation right now.
Go ahead and make some lists it’s a huge problem for list builds with all these decent kustom jobs.

gungo wrote:
The only benefit for ES sjd is you can jump shoot jump 2 however the lack of CPs are orks biggest limitation right now.
Go ahead and make some lists it’s a huge problem for list builds with all these decent kustom jobs.

Yeah. I think the tendency of mech players go for bat bat 1 CP detachment is biting them in the ass too. A good chunk of our force multiplication comes from stratagems.

Brigades are looking better. Sadly the elite slot kind of sucks for mech, unless you stack a bunch of tankbustas in something... but that’s not really cheap points wise.

Yeah, batbat is painful atm.

1 Kustom Job
1 Extra Relic
1 Warboss Strat boost
1 Special Detachment (SSAG)

Already down to 9cp remaining. And quite frankly i find it difficult to only pick 1 kustom job unless were playing like 1500pts, where i probably dont even have many i even want one on in the first place.
I actually found myself taking Follow Me Ladz! instead of Big Killa Boss to get another cp lol. Since...for some reason my friends' answer to the SSAG is dont bring vehicles not...yaknow..kill the ssag by turn2 at the latest...

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, batbat is painful atm.

1 Kustom Job
1 Extra Relic
1 Warboss Strat boost
1 Special Detachment (SSAG)

Already down to 9cp remaining. And quite frankly i find it difficult to only pick 1 kustom job unless were playing like 1500pts, where i probably dont even have many i even want one on in the first place.
I actually found myself taking Follow Me Ladz! instead of Big Killa Boss to get another cp lol. Since...for some reason my friends' answer to the SSAG is dont bring vehicles not...yaknow..kill the ssag by turn2 at the latest...

How close are you to a brigade? Because 16 CP sounds a lot better than 13.

Lack of mek gunz make brigades difficult and i hate our elite slots.
MANz and Nobz eat a ton of points pretty fast, Grotsnik is fine, Waaagh! Banner is difficult to use, and minimeks really dont do much.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Lack of mek gunz make brigades difficult and i hate our elite slots.
MANz and Nobz eat a ton of points pretty fast, Grotsnik is fine, Waaagh! Banner is difficult to use, and minimeks really dont do much.

You only need 3 heavies, don't you usually field a couple? 1 Mek Gun is only 33 points.

I honestly love the elite slot... in an infantry style list. Mad Dok, MANz, Tankbustas...

I generally agree though. It's a bad fit. Fast Attack has cheap Deff Koptas (29 or 44 point variants are both really, really good); Heavy has Smashas. Elites is really the dead weight for cheap options.

Elites is probably going to be Tankbustas in a vehicle (you can fit 3 squads of 5 in a battlewagon or Forktress, which seems decent actually). 5 man kommando squad is only 40 points... if you have legends access too, you can get 2 burnas for free.

I hate force org taxes in general, though. It's always annoying when you have an idea but seem like you are burning so many points on HQs and grots you don't really want (triple bat). As long as the piece you bring pulls its weight, I'm happy.

To be honest, the 3x5 sounds smart right now.

Most likely they wont ever get a chance to use Shoot Again unless you intentionally disembark them, and i dont see a time where that's a smart move - more like an act of desperation.

The issue isnt the slots themselves, its filling 3 of each at the same time. Yeah, Tankbustas are awesome, MANz are useful, but theyre expensive enough to usually force sacrifices somewhere to bring them in enough quantities to be a factor.
I only have 1 mek gun, a traktor. I refuse to pay 50 bucks each and simply havnt gotten around to kitbashing since i generally run several wagons and a naut anyway.

i miss the old days of listbuilding where SLOTS was the issue, not cp or points. 3HQ max, 6 troops max, 3 FA/Elite/Heavy max, 1 super max, 1 fortification max, probably 3 planes max since theyre their own role now.

Best I got with a lot of feed back is a bat/bat/airwing 14 command points
9 are gone off the bat for army upgrading...
5 left for
-1 tempermental shock drive turn 1
-1 headbutt on bomber turn 1
-2 kustom ammo shoot twice on either a SSAG for a good target or on teleported gork w kustom gun..

Leaves 1 for turn 2 headbutt, grot shield (for SSAG) or a really important reroll!
If I didn’t use the tempermental shock drive turn 1; I can kustom ammo again or ramming speed on gork. That’s not a good safety net and I kinda wish I had a chance to regain CP back without neutering my SSAG.

looking at this cp discussion I feel a lot better about forcing my Freebooterz list into brigade+airwing. 2 cp goes a long way toward making ork shooting actually viable, between double shooting a morkanaught or deepstriking a kustom gorka.

good grief 9 for army upgrades?

The heck are you taking? I cant imagine taking every possible upgrade is good (i.e. taking both warboss + mek strats, i'd recommend not even doing the mek one unless youre intentionally not running a boss)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
To be honest, the 3x5 sounds smart right now.

Most likely they wont ever get a chance to use Shoot Again unless you intentionally disembark them, and i dont see a time where that's a smart move - more like an act of desperation.

The issue isnt the slots themselves, its filling 3 of each at the same time. Yeah, Tankbustas are awesome, MANz are useful, but theyre expensive enough to usually force sacrifices somewhere to bring them in enough quantities to be a factor.
I only have 1 mek gun, a traktor. I refuse to pay 50 bucks each and simply havnt gotten around to kitbashing since i generally run several wagons and a naut anyway.

i miss the old days of listbuilding where SLOTS was the issue, not cp or points. 3HQ max, 6 troops max, 3 FA/Elite/Heavy max, 1 super max, 1 fortification max, probably 3 planes max since theyre their own role now.

I love Tankbuastas. I think they have generally been underutilized compare to Lootas, which is a shame, because I think they are generally better because they don't need a lick of CP to be effective. They are an effective 3+ to hit against vehicles. Even when you aren't firing against a vehicle, 17 point per rocket I believe is the cheapest platform we got for it. And you can achieve shoot twice by... you know, having them survive multiple rounds, for free.

I hear you, though. Slot tax is just frustrating for army comp.

Tankbustas are fine. I think the reason they've fallen off compared to Lootas is that we already have two very good options for dealing with vehicles (SAGs and Smashas), and Lootas are a bit more versatile in that their large volume of shots means they can hit medium to large infantry mobs as well, where TBs will struggle. Their longer range helps a lot too.

Edit: forgot about the SmashBoss. Sorry. 3 good options for anti-armor. More if you include MANz and the various vehicles we have.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
good grief 9 for army upgrades?

The heck are you taking? I cant imagine taking every possible upgrade is good (i.e. taking both warboss + mek strats, i'd recommend not even doing the mek one unless youre intentionally not running a boss)

I’ve linked it already. It’s a lot of strong options. That works well without a ton of CP. nearly everything has an invul and a reroll to hit. Plus a lot of shooting units have bonus to hit as well.

Oh ok you include tellyporta in that. Yeah 6-7CP feels normal right now, which is sad.

3x5 tankbustas in a forktress definitely helped solve my brigade issue.....man i run too many vehicles lol (i run bonebreakas literally because for their base function theyre pretty dang good, its when you try to make them transport something expensive they become sucky)