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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh ok you include tellyporta in that. Yeah 6-7CP feels normal right now, which is sad.

3x5 tankbustas in a forktress definitely helped solve my brigade issue.....man i run too many vehicles lol (i run bonebreakas literally because for their base function theyre pretty dang good, its when you try to make them transport something expensive they become sucky)

which klan do you run bonebreakas as. i've been thinking of making a fun list with lots of battlewagons and thought BBs would be best as blood axes, especially with the new weirdboy spell

Deathskullz, the invul basically being the ultimate reason though the reroll to hit/wound is nice too since its still sporting a D6 damage gun if youre not tight on points and with 6+D6 attacks youre bound to roll a few 1s anyway.
But 4+ armor.....they usually get no save at all. So that invul is paramount.

Mind you this isnt a competitive mentality here, just local games. People tend to pay much less attention to it when its either empty or just has 10 boyz in it and then it starts mowing things.

I really dont think they'd work as anything else unless you gave it the Forktress KJ. Issue with that is only one can benefit, and i have a compulsive urge to run pairs of anything under 200pts if i run at all lol

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Lack of mek gunz make brigades difficult and i hate our elite slots.
MANz and Nobz eat a ton of points pretty fast, Grotsnik is fine, Waaagh! Banner is difficult to use, and minimeks really dont do much.

You only need 3 heavies, don't you usually field a couple? 1 Mek Gun is only 33 points.

I honestly love the elite slot... in an infantry style list. Mad Dok, MANz, Tankbustas...

I generally agree though. It's a bad fit. Fast Attack has cheap Deff Koptas (29 or 44 point variants are both really, really good); Heavy has Smashas. Elites is really the dead weight for cheap options.

Elites is probably going to be Tankbustas in a vehicle (you can fit 3 squads of 5 in a battlewagon or Forktress, which seems decent actually). 5 man kommando squad is only 40 points... if you have legends access too, you can get 2 burnas for free.

I hate force org taxes in general, though. It's always annoying when you have an idea but seem like you are burning so many points on HQs and grots you don't really want (triple bat). As long as the piece you bring pulls its weight, I'm happy.

The thing about the elite slot is that all units in there are either worthless or expensive and none of them synergize with a mech list.
Even the 5+5+5 tankbustas in a wagon add up to at least 375 points that you could just have spent on other things. If you really want more CP, you need to suck it up and bring that third battalion.
Personally, I feel like the way to go is just to change your way of playing and not burn through CP as fast. The difference between a battalion and an airwing is just 4 CP, but you pay at least 228 points in tax units for it - and my gut feeling is that shooting the SSAG two more times or a bunch of kustom jobs are just not worth that.
If you only shoot SSAG/naut twice when it really makes a difference but you have more units which can contribute in a meaningful way to the game at all times, it lessens the burn-out effect of your army and makes you less vulnerable when your CP sink faces a premature end.

I completely agree unless we have a way to regain CPs to keep feeding units it’s best to work with units that don’t need a lot of constant CPs which is why I don’t think multiple ES SJD work as it just eats CPs.
As is I only plan to use tempermental shockdrive only once to get it out of harms way after it tries to snipe someone. That will theoretically let me use it at least twice before someone can get a clean shot at it.

 Jidmah wrote:

The thing about the elite slot is that all units in there are either worthless or expensive and none of them synergize with a mech list.
Even the 5+5+5 tankbustas in a wagon add up to at least 375 points that you could just have spent on other things. If you really want more CP, you need to suck it up and bring that third battalion.
Personally, I feel like the way to go is just to change your way of playing and not burn through CP as fast. The difference between a battalion and an airwing is just 4 CP, but you pay at least 228 points in tax units for it - and my gut feeling is that shooting the SSAG two more times or a bunch of kustom jobs are just not worth that.
If you only shoot SSAG/naut twice when it really makes a difference but you have more units which can contribute in a meaningful way to the game at all times, it lessens the burn-out effect of your army and makes you less vulnerable when your CP sink faces a premature end.

I agree with the premise. I do think Orks will still want a good chunk of CP in your back pocket, because "Shoot twice" with the SSAG (or others) often means a 4 CP investment because of neg hit modifiers, which means going down to like... 5 CP, even after the tellyporta, seems like too little to me. Maybe I'm wrong. There's probably a sweet spot for the amount extras we spend on stratagems now, or we just have to build to not use our other good strats.

I would push back saying its inherently a waste to take 15 Tankbustas generally speaking, though, as they are actually very good at what they do for their points. If you don't really need more rocket fire, that's fine. The real tax is the platform they are in (IE: 120 points min for a battlewagon) then the unit itself imo.

I just don’t get tankbustas now. We have much better anti tank tools now.
I have fielded a 15 mob, bad moon, at many tournaments in 2019. I don’t see myself using them anymore. Grot rev Smashas, Da OK Boomer, morkanaut with sparkly bitz... you name it, all superior choices IMHO.

I could be wrong but... I feel they are just so bad when opponent has no vehicules

addnid wrote:
I just don’t get tankbustas now. We have much better anti tank tools now.
I have fielded a 15 mob, bad moon, at many tournaments in 2019. I don’t see myself using them anymore. Grot rev Smashas, Da OK Boomer, morkanaut with sparkly bitz... you name it, all superior choices IMHO.

I could be wrong but... I feel they are just so bad when opponent has no vehicules

Tankbustas in boomboys detachment are likely to be at least semi competitive. Str9 ap-3 3dam rerollable to hit bs 5+ is very nice.
But I agree mostly
My main issue is what do I put in a da boomer gunwagon? Lootas aren’t much better... flash Gitz have thier own issues. And it’s not like the gun wagon is moving fast enough for assault units.. tankbustas don’t need CP to work well. All tankbustas need is a transport and the gunwagon is ideal.

The main role of tankbustas in my opinion is flyer killing, and to a lesser extent dealing wioth -to hit deathballs like the possessed star. A lot of our upgrades to shooting have come from increased BS, and Tankbustas are as such still the best and ripping flyers out of the air with More Dakka.

Yeah, I'd say tankbustas still have a role, it's just that they're not necessarily must take unless your list doesn't have that area covered already. Boomboyz have definitely given them a new lease on life in making their damage stick. I'm just wondering if Lobbas are worth considering in a Boomboyz detachment since it addresses their lack of AP and it gives them the S6 sweet spot of wounding T3 units on 2's.

Gungo I say you put nothing, or just grots, in da boomer. It is probably going to be focused down with that save, and 36 inches isn’t a huge range. Just use it to disembark something turn 1 and gain that extra 3 inch move, and space in the deployment zone (something orks lack)

Swampist yes indeed but we can use other, if slightly less effective, tools for these situations. And lots of smashas will work fine in your examples, without using any cp. SSAG works fine against flyers as they usually don’t have an invul. 255 points for 15 tank bustas is 8 smashas. Smashas have Twice the AP.
Also TBustas don’t deal with centurions or paladins at all.

Not sold at all on boom boys as you need that detachment... and can’t double shoot like bad moon TBs.

Agreed on the paladins, but very few things in the game do deal with those . I am also looking at alternates to the tankbustas, but I do still believe they have a role. A lot of their usefullness depends on if eldar flyers is still a build in the post-pandemic meta. I'm of the opinion that lootas don't have a place right now tbh; their variance is too high and ap-1 isn't good enough in the current meta, especially for how much of a cp hole they are.

addnid wrote:
Not sold at all on boom boys as you need that detachment... and can’t double shoot like bad moon TBs.

Best case scenario (a Land Raider in cover) you're looking at doubling your damage output.

More commonly (a Leman Russ) you're not quite double. You're at 5/3rds the damage output.

Worst general case (a Knight) you're rocking an extra 33% damage, or 4/3rds.

Now, obviously some cases you get NO bonus. (Shooting at a Greater Daemon, for example.) But generally, you'll kill those models with other things.

If you rely on one big blob of Bustas, double shooting will do you better in most situations, and at worst, you break even.
If you want more squads, though, it's pretty good.

Orks must be spoiled for anti tank if turning our Tankbustas into the rough equivalent of assault 1 lascannons (boom boys) is considered 'meh'.

But like, unironically orks are spoiled for choice on antitank yes

The problem I have with tankbustas is that they are an easily recognisable threat in my area steming from the use they got out of me in 7th. Even now, the minute I put them on the table, they become priority number one and must die.
Which is a shame, as I have 30 of them which sadly stay in the case most of the time. I can't bring them out for friendly games because they are too good at killing big things, and in competitive games they just get obliterated.

addnid wrote:
Gungo I say you put nothing, or just grots, in da boomer. It is probably going to be focused down with that save, and 36 inches isn’t a huge range. Just use it to disembark something turn 1 and gain that extra 3 inch move, and space in the deployment zone (something orks lack)

Swampist yes indeed but we can use other, if slightly less effective, tools for these situations. And lots of smashas will work fine in your examples, without using any cp. SSAG works fine against flyers as they usually don’t have an invul. 255 points for 15 tank bustas is 8 smashas. Smashas have Twice the AP.
Also TBustas don’t deal with centurions or paladins at all.

Not sold at all on boom boys as you need that detachment... and can’t double shoot like bad moon TBs.

I fully expect my boomer to get nuked turn 1...but hey that’s what I want my opponents shooting at instead of my SSAG, warboss on bike, Mek guns, SJD or rocket kans. it’s a bit more durable then the rest while putting out similar damage output. I had 85 points left over on my list and a min unit of tankbustas was a nice filler for the wagon. And if that makes the gun wagon a bigger threat all the better. I was also hoping the wagon would protect them for a turn While getting them in range of stuff. but a min squad of grots is also a good idea if you don’t have anything else to put in it. I guess my point is tankbustas aren’t bad. they have a small niche even though other units can do what they do almost as good. I definitely agree though they aren’t needed anymore.

tulun wrote:
Orks must be spoiled for anti tank if turning our Tankbustas into the rough equivalent of assault 1 lascannons (boom boys) is considered 'meh'.

To be fair, those lascannons you speak of are also only 24" range, meaning we either need to tellyport them or transport them in vehicles to actually get them to their targets, so they're always more expensive than just the base cost of tankbustas, who are already very pricey given how fragile they are. And using them with the boomboyz subkultur means you are also losing out with regards to opportunity costs, since dedicating a detachment to them means you're including units that don't really benefit from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:
But like, unironically orks are spoiled for choice on antitank yes

I'd say only really for ranged, which is really weird because it's basically the reverse of the situation back in 6th-7th, where our shooting was pretty garbage as far as AP went (outside of Kustom Mega Kannons) but we had the PK hard carry for us in that department. Now the PK is basically invalid as a CC weapon whereas now with the SSAG, Mek Gunz and Rokkits, we're pretty much golden for cost efficient shooting.

Ork builds, as far as I can tell, fall into two categories: Green tides and Gunlines.

 Swampmist wrote:
looking at this cp discussion I feel a lot better about forcing my Freebooterz list into brigade+airwing. 2 cp goes a long way toward making ork shooting actually viable, between double shooting a morkanaught or deepstriking a kustom gorka.

Ork shooting viable? I have floored my opponents with ork shooting at tournaments. I distinctly remember one very memorable game where I got first turn and my Big Mek with SSAG killed my opponents Knight, used shoot twice strat and killed another one with the help of some smasha guns and then my loota bomb (Now buffed with +1 to hit) ripped apart his SM squads after my remaining Smasha's killed their Rhinos. He had some guys in reserve that basically never saw the board because I all but tabled him turn 1 with really good rolls and he surrendered afterwards.

I would generally recommend against shooting twice with a morkanaut if you have a SSAG or even lootas your CP is better spent there. With the +1 to hit though that might change./

tulun wrote:
Orks must be spoiled for anti tank if turning our Tankbustas into the rough equivalent of assault 1 lascannons (boom boys) is considered 'meh'.

It doesn't matter how good your gun is when you lack accuracy, a decent save and cost 17ppm.

Bustas are good, but they aren't cheap so they aren't spammable, they don't last long if exposed and their range is relatively short.

I think tankbustas are decent but they're just competing with much of our best stuff. They're also terrible if the opponent doesn't have any vehicles and that's not unheard of. GK is often run as infantry spam nowadays and while they have some play against paladins GK have so many defensive buffs that it rarely matters (also, you don't want to be within 24" of paladins with things that aren't charging IMO)

I agree that elite slots are tough for merchanised lists but a single minimek, a small squad of kommandos and some nobz are all fairly decent IMO. Would I have loved it if nobz on warbikes were actually good? Yes, but filling 3 slots isn't all that tough and I think I'd rather do brigade plus battalion than 3x battalion because I don't want that 6th HQ personally

PiñaColada wrote:
I think tankbustas are decent but they're just competing with much of our best stuff. They're also terrible if the opponent doesn't have any vehicles and that's not unheard of. GK is often run as infantry spam nowadays and while they have some play against paladins GK have so many defensive buffs that it rarely matters (also, you don't want to be within 24" of paladins with things that aren't charging IMO)

I agree that elite slots are tough for merchanised lists but a single minimek, a small squad of kommandos and some nobz are all fairly decent IMO. Would I have loved it if nobz on warbikes were actually good? Yes, but filling 3 slots isn't all that tough and I think I'd rather do brigade plus battalion than 3x battalion because I don't want that 6th HQ personally

Yea I completely agree on your last point. It's the HQ tax that's killing my lists. We might have some of the cheapest HQ options available but one has to be a Deffkilla because 'muh Evil Sunz' and another has to be Zhadsnark/Warboss on Bike for similar reasons. That's 225-240 pts there. Obligatory SSAGMek - another 80/84 gone. Kinda obligatory Weirdboy is another 60 odd points. Worse, few of these HQs have amazing synergy between each other and a traditional Sunz' list. Throw in the 90 Grots minimum and there's another 270pts. You're looking at about 1k of the 2k gone before you're into the actual list part of the list. I'm playing with double batt for now, to see if the greater flexibility is worth it. Brig + batt isn't a bad idea though.

Unless you can put KMB on them, mini-mek are useless though, same for small unit of kommandos. They can't hold an objective, they can't hurt anything, can't deny area or block movement or do anything else. You would never, ever take meks or kommandoz outside of a brigade, and I don't see "you gain 2 CP" changing that.

Tankbustas are a but too expensive, as much as the rokkit they wield. IMHO, rokkits should be 8-9 pts. Making tankbustas 13-14 pts each.

That said, I feel PA has been patching up things that should have been like that, rule wise from the start.

An example, klever spanner. A spanner is the equivalent to an exarch or a sargeant. However, the former 2 get their special rules for free and we need to pay 1-2cps for what it should have been its hability.

Superboss or supermeks stratagems, more of the same. Things that should have come by default but instead we need to pay CPs.

On a side note. Am I the only one that misses a stratagem called "Bully Boys"? 0CP: if Ghazghkull is in your warlord a unit of nobs or MANz get +1 WS


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have serious problems deciding what to include in the elite slot for the brigade.

MANZ are a stample, otherwise, finding cheap and useful units is close to impossible. I conclude, minimeks and komandos are bad, but alas, the only cheap option.

It is a shame minimeks with kmb have been indexated. I really liked them.

The problem with bullyboyz is that you have to take a 285pt tax unit (ghaz) to get access to it and its not that incredible of a buff honestly. Now your Meganobz are hitting on 3s instead of 4s and all for the low low price of 300pts. For less than a 3rd of that you could just take a banner nob,and if you really really need that +1 attack on the charge...well take a weirdboy and give that unit warpath, congrats for less than half the cost of Ghaz you now have 2 character protected HQs giving BETTER buffs than ghaz can give.

SemperMortis wrote:
The problem with bullyboyz is that you have to take a 285pt tax unit (ghaz) to get access to it and its not that incredible of a buff honestly. Now your Meganobz are hitting on 3s instead of 4s and all for the low low price of 300pts. For less than a 3rd of that you could just take a banner nob,and if you really really need that +1 attack on the charge...well take a weirdboy and give that unit warpath, congrats for less than half the cost of Ghaz you now have 2 character protected HQs giving BETTER buffs than ghaz can give.

Yeah well. Suggestion was fluffy rather than competitive. Sure there are ways to "implement" the same in game. Still, you would need to spend extra.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I think tankbustas are decent but they're just competing with much of our best stuff. They're also terrible if the opponent doesn't have any vehicles and that's not unheard of. GK is often run as infantry spam nowadays and while they have some play against paladins GK have so many defensive buffs that it rarely matters (also, you don't want to be within 24" of paladins with things that aren't charging IMO)

I agree that elite slots are tough for merchanised lists but a single minimek, a small squad of kommandos and some nobz are all fairly decent IMO. Would I have loved it if nobz on warbikes were actually good? Yes, but filling 3 slots isn't all that tough and I think I'd rather do brigade plus battalion than 3x battalion because I don't want that 6th HQ personally

Yea I completely agree on your last point. It's the HQ tax that's killing my lists. We might have some of the cheapest HQ options available but one has to be a Deffkilla because 'muh Evil Sunz' and another has to be Zhadsnark/Warboss on Bike for similar reasons. That's 225-240 pts there. Obligatory SSAGMek - another 80/84 gone. Kinda obligatory Weirdboy is another 60 odd points. Worse, few of these HQs have amazing synergy between each other and a traditional Sunz' list. Throw in the 90 Grots minimum and there's another 270pts. You're looking at about 1k of the 2k gone before you're into the actual list part of the list. I'm playing with double batt for now, to see if the greater flexibility is worth it. Brig + batt isn't a bad idea though.

I don't know about the Wartrike as "mandatory", unless you're purely talking theme. Unless you're running a bonebreaka blitz brigade, or the decidedly un-ES melee dread mob, the wartrike doesn't do much for ES that the bikerboss doesn't also do.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The problem with bullyboyz is that you have to take a 285pt tax unit (ghaz) to get access to it and its not that incredible of a buff honestly. Now your Meganobz are hitting on 3s instead of 4s and all for the low low price of 300pts. For less than a 3rd of that you could just take a banner nob,and if you really really need that +1 attack on the charge...well take a weirdboy and give that unit warpath, congrats for less than half the cost of Ghaz you now have 2 character protected HQs giving BETTER buffs than ghaz can give.

Yeah well. Suggestion was fluffy rather than competitive. Sure there are ways to "implement" the same in game. Still, you would need to spend extra.

Fluff-wise a unit of Goff MANz near Thrakka automatically turns into Bully Boyz: They get additional attacks, ignore morale, re-roll ones and have exploding sixes

I really miss the option to make a unit of Nobz/MANz troops from 5th. This would open up so many builds...

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

It doesn't matter how good your gun is when you lack accuracy, a decent save and cost 17ppm.

Bustas are good, but they aren't cheap so they aren't spammable, they don't last long if exposed and their range is relatively short.

They are very accurate vs vehicles. They have a permanent visions lol. Toss em in a chinork and they have a 40" range, 50" if you're Evil Suns without a shooting penalty.

The big thing is they overperform vs vehicles. I play against vehicles constantly, including Wave Serpents, with a -1 damage modifier, so their cost hasn't really bothered me. They've won me games a lot.

If you rarely see units like that, though, I can see why you might be indifferent to them. And they do, like all of this style of play, come with the cost of protecting them whether that's grot shields or a transport.

 Jidmah wrote:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The problem with bullyboyz is that you have to take a 285pt tax unit (ghaz) to get access to it and its not that incredible of a buff honestly. Now your Meganobz are hitting on 3s instead of 4s and all for the low low price of 300pts. For less than a 3rd of that you could just take a banner nob,and if you really really need that +1 attack on the charge...well take a weirdboy and give that unit warpath, congrats for less than half the cost of Ghaz you now have 2 character protected HQs giving BETTER buffs than ghaz can give.

Yeah well. Suggestion was fluffy rather than competitive. Sure there are ways to "implement" the same in game. Still, you would need to spend extra.

Fluff-wise a unit of Goff MANz near Thrakka automatically turns into Bully Boyz: They get additional attacks, ignore morale, re-roll ones and have exploding sixes

I really miss the option to make a unit of Nobz/MANz troops from 5th. This would open up so many builds...

That argument is valid for ANY Goff unit. No, what I mean is a bodyguard. Exclusive one.
Personal wish would have been 1Cp give +1 to hit to one nob/meganob unit (klan free), but was sincerely expecting something along the line of my first suggestioon.