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Biggest problem in TTS is the true LOS and movement, keeping a real coherency is a struggle.
I'll have a game this Tuesday, trying out the new bombers and Meganobz heavy with the new strat, let's see what happens

Here is what I am thinking for a grot mobz detachment:

Spearhead:
Big Mek KFF or Big Mek MA KFF

Killa Kanz Big Shoota x6
Killa Kanz Rokkits x6
Smashaz x6

The though is to give Sparkly Bitz to one of the Killa Kan units depending on the army I am facing.

 Geemoney wrote:
Here is what I am thinking for a grot mobz detachment:

Spearhead:
Big Mek KFF or Big Mek MA KFF

Killa Kanz Big Shoota x6
Killa Kanz Rokkits x6
Smashaz x6

The though is to give Sparkly Bitz to one of the Killa Kan units depending on the army I am facing.

As much as I love Kanz, unfortunately, I feel like they actually don't benefit that much from Grot Mobz that much. They lack the volume or quality of fire to really make the most of reroll one's that a pure Mek Gunz Spearhead or Battalion would do and with Sparkly Bitz they can't compete with a Morkanaut that can shoot twice in a Dred Waaagh! Specialist Detachment. I've found more success with them recently with a Tin 'Ead detachment and giving them the Orkymatic Pistons kustom job so they can do the most damage, which is with their CC weapons. They do a good job of being like Meganobz unit that don't need to rely on Da Jump/Tellyport and hit a lot harder with their flat damage. With support from a Deffkilla Wartrike it's even possible to get T1 charges with them, though they'll definitely outpace any WAAAGH! banners if you decide to take them in your army.

I think you under estimate hitting on 3's + reroll 1's + DakkaDakka

6 Rockets for 252 points, even hitting on 3's, is not that impressive. I'd rather take Deff Koptas, which basically hit at the same rate (2 rockets shooting at bs 5+ average the same as 1 rocket at a 3+... plus they don't cost me a CP, and have a really high upside if I roll hot), for only 12 more points. And they are really good at scoring objectives.

Or 10 tankbustas in a Chinork.

And boosting big shootas is really meh to me. Big Shootas suck, even if they hit on 3's.

I think the CC Kan is more interesting. Killa Kans actually have a decent combat profile if you can boost that WS.

 Geemoney wrote:
I think you under estimate hitting on 3's + reroll 1's + DakkaDakka

There is nothing that needs estimating though, you can just calculate it.

Assuming everyone has sparkly bits:

Six kanz with rokkits, sparkly bits and re-roll ones:
5 dead GEQ
3 dead primaris
7.259 damage to T7 vehicles
5.444 damage to knights

Six kanz with big shootas, sparkly bits and re-roll ones:
7.259 dead GEQ
1.815 dead primaris
1.815 damage to vehicles

Morkanaut with sparkly bits:
8.111 dead GEQ
4.778 dead primaris
10.273 damage to T7 vehicles
6.709 damage to knights

Gorkanaut with sparkly bits:
11.403 dead GEQ
3.528 dead primaris
4.084 damage to T7 vehicles
3.695 damage to knights

And just for the heck of it, a trio of quad-KMB deff dreads with sparkly bits:
6 dead GEQ
5 dead primaris
13.611 damage to T7 vehicles
8.167 damage to knights

So, don't give kanz sparkly bits, they are they get the least benefit from it out of all units that can have them. And never take big shootas unless you have to.

I rather have the gorkanaut kustom job weapon then sparkly bits. It’s a significantly better kustom job. More shots and with higher BS within 12in.
(If you wanted a morkanaut then sparkly bits and death skulls is much better.)

Which means sparkly bits isn’t going on the gorkanaut anyway.

And of course more smashas w reroll 1s are better then kans but the question is are kans worth taking sparkly bits or better off with dirty gubbins or orky pistons. Kans are like mega nobs that can shoot. Reroll 1s work in melee to. so you want kans in melee. I’m not sure tineads is better since rerolls 1s help mek guns more plus 6++ invul is useful..

We already know shootas suck, skorchas are way to expensive, it’s either rokkits or grotzookas. The bottom line is there are still better options then kans. although grot clan kans aren’t bad w reroll 1 shooting and melee plus 6+ invul.

Grotzookas are strictly worse than big shootas - it's rokkits or bust

 Jidmah wrote:
Grotzookas are strictly worse than big shootas - it's rokkits or bust

Given that I’m already taking a gorkanaut w kustom weapon ( it’s better then sparkly bits)
Given that you are better off taking rokkits on kans.
and I’m not taking a morkanaut
is it better to take sparkly bits or dirty gubbins or orky pistons.

I don’t see the love for tineads unless you are going heavy on Meganobz. +1 to hit melee is ok but reroll 1 in shooting and melee and 6+ invul is better.

That new Deathskullz power is ridiculous....

I didnt notice it worked in both melee and shooting, so -1 to hit for the assaulty boys that tried to charge me and my mass of boyz suddenly have AP1 shootas/choppas.
That allowed my boyz to absolutely chew through things. I need to use this power more that was insane.

The range limiter kind of relegates it to anti-deepstrike, which is an issue. Difficult to get the weirdboy far enough up the board to target a unit you really want to ping with it.

I noticed the KFF was changed to be Clan only and 5++ for shooting and melee.

Is it legit to take Makari as HQ in a grot mob specialist detachment so that I can free an HQ spot in Ghaz's battalion to bring the KFF for Goffs?

Battlescribe dont let it go and havent made a list in a long time

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That new Deathskullz power is ridiculous....

I didnt notice it worked in both melee and shooting, so -1 to hit for the assaulty boys that tried to charge me and my mass of boyz suddenly have AP1 shootas/choppas.
That allowed my boyz to absolutely chew through things. I need to use this power more that was insane.

The range limiter kind of relegates it to anti-deepstrike, which is an issue. Difficult to get the weirdboy far enough up the board to target a unit you really want to ping with it.

Yep. It’s really good. I’m painting death skull shoota boys for a reason. I’m stoked to try it out with those plus stuff like my mega trakk. Big shootas start looking decent when they are AP-1

18” with move and advance from the weirdboy is alright, but yeah, he’s still sniper bait. I was hoping PA would have given our weird boys more than t shirts.

Bigdoza wrote:
I noticed the KFF was changed to be Clan only and 5++ for shooting and melee.

Is it legit to take Makari as HQ in a grot mob specialist detachment so that I can free an HQ spot in Ghaz's battalion to bring the KFF for Goffs?

Battlescribe dont let it go and havent made a list in a long time

In this case BattleScribe is right. Makari can only be taken in a goffs detachment

weaver9 wrote:

Bigdoza wrote:
I noticed the KFF was changed to be Clan only and 5++ for shooting and melee.

Is it legit to take Makari as HQ in a grot mob specialist detachment so that I can free an HQ spot in Ghaz's battalion to bring the KFF for Goffs?

Battlescribe dont let it go and havent made a list in a long time

In this case BattleScribe is right. Makari can only be taken in a goffs detachment

That’s not strictly true. You could do a mixed detachment.

But you’d lose the grot mob benefits, so I wouldn’t recommend that.

Are you including the Skorcha in the Gorkanaut math? Kanz with Big Shootaz serve two possible purposes, screen out vehicle heavy lists, or do damage to infantry(GEQ) heavy lists at range. If we are playing a infantry heavy list the Rokkit Kanz can be used as a screen if needed. I don't believe the Skorcha is relevant in the this comparison.

18 shots, hitting on 3's; wounding on 3's gets me 8 wounds
18 shots, hitting on 4's; wounding on 2's gets me 7.5 wounds
Factoring in a base 5+ save the big shoota kanz come up short about a wound when compared the the Gorkanaut; and that is without factoring in reroll 1's or Dakka Dakka. Also the Gorkanaut is 70pt more...

I'm not saying the Gorkanaut is bad, it is probably a better all around unit, but I would argue the Big Shoota kanz are better at doing damage to GEQ at range and a much better screen. A Gorkanaut is too valuable of a unit to use as a screen.

First try at a new ork list, but pretty much in a vacuum since I have not played in a few years. Any glaring flaws with this try?

 Geemoney wrote:
Are you including the Skorcha in the Gorkanaut math?

Yeah, forgot the skorcha, but the gorkanaut is just there for comparison anyways - the slugg gubbin is a way better choice for it.

Kanz with Big Shootaz serve two possible purposes, screen out vehicle heavy lists, or do damage to infantry(GEQ) heavy lists at range. If we are playing a infantry heavy list the Rokkit Kanz can be used as a screen if needed. I don't believe the Skorcha is relevant in the this comparison.

Big shootas are trash, irrespective of their platform. Paying 210 points and a CP for seven dead GEQ is just terrible and gets worse if you they are in cover or wearing 3+ armor. Against an army with 3+ or 4+ saves a big shoota might as well not exist.
Just put rokkits on all of them and shoot those GEQs with rokkits if you must.

18 shots, hitting on 3's; wounding on 3's gets me 8 wounds
18 shots, hitting on 4's; wounding on 2's gets me 7.5 wounds
Factoring in a base 5+ save the big shoota kanz come up short about a wound when compared the the Gorkanaut; and that is without factoring in reroll 1's or Dakka Dakka. Also the Gorkanaut is 70pt more...

I already factored in re-rolling ones and dakkadakka for all involved AND forgot the skorcha. The naut is still 1.5 times better than the kanz against MEQ and almost twice as good against any other target.
There is no way to make that sound good.

I'm not saying the Gorkanaut is bad, it is probably a better all around unit, but I would argue the Big Shoota kanz are better at doing damage to GEQ at range and a much better screen. A Gorkanaut is too valuable of a unit to use as a screen.

Sorry, but there is nothing to argue. The math shows that big shootas on kanz are point for point worse at dealing damage against GEQ and completely terrible at everything else. There is no competitive reason to ever buy a single big shoota.

Bigshootas will never be preferred until they become 2pts or get an AP.
They are probably close to the worst weapon we have in the codex for their cost. And unfortunately they are also the most abundant, as almost every vehicle is covered in them.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Bigshootas will never be preferred until they become 2pts or get an AP.
They are probably close to the worst weapon we have in the codex for their cost. And unfortunately they are also the most abundant, as almost every vehicle is covered in them.

Eh, I've come to like these random weapons they keep sprinkling over models. Having a big shoota that's effectively priced into your naut/buggy/plane is actually nice. I just don't want to pay anything for them, and I don't want them to replace weapons which actually do something, like rokkits or KMB.

Regarding the big shootas - Jidmah is absolutely right. Math is clear.

Regarding the KMK vs SMG - huge disadventage of KMK is 36” range on almost immobile platform. It' s too easy to be out of range.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That new Deathskullz power is ridiculous....

I didnt notice it worked in both melee and shooting, so -1 to hit for the assaulty boys that tried to charge me and my mass of boyz suddenly have AP1 shootas/choppas.
That allowed my boyz to absolutely chew through things. I need to use this power more that was insane.

The range limiter kind of relegates it to anti-deepstrike, which is an issue. Difficult to get the weirdboy far enough up the board to target a unit you really want to ping with it.

Been thinking about how to use it effectively too. not tested it yet but the power does not require line of sight so thinking of trying to get him within 18" and just hide him if the opponents not too mobile

it doesnt require line of sight?
somehow i would assume that would be faq'd in. Psyker powers that dont need LoS are insanely rare, actually i cant even think of another one.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
it doesnt require line of sight?
somehow i would assume that would be faq'd in. Psyker powers that dont need LoS are insanely rare, actually i cant even think of another one.

All eldar CW powers nearly. A few tyranid buffing powers don’t either. Not that rare but still the minority I would say

Warpath, Roar of Mork, Da Krunch, and Da Jump do not require line of sight, just from the Ork discipline alone.

I think it's plenty common.

Oh so two actual spells.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Bigshootas will never be preferred until they become 2pts or get an AP.
They are probably close to the worst weapon we have in the codex for their cost. And unfortunately they are also the most abundant, as almost every vehicle is covered in them.

I've clearly missed a memo. Why is a Big Shoota bad? I see some people saying "The math is clear" but they don't actually SHOW the math … it's just taken as conventional wisdom.

Can anyone lay out the argument against them and show the work in the process? I'd be ever so thankful.

cody.d. wrote:
Oh so two actual spells.

Haha, I actually kind of like Da Krunch... but the problem is when your Weirdboy gets 1 spell only (other than Smite), you'd be crazy to not take even BACKUPS of Da jump / Warpath / Fists of Gork / (new clan psychic powers) before 1 copy of it.

Wakshaani wrote:

I've clearly missed a memo. Why is a Big Shoota bad? I see some people saying "The math is clear" but they don't actually SHOW the math … it's just taken as conventional wisdom.

Can anyone lay out the argument against them and show the work in the process? I'd be ever so thankful.

Because they are overpriced trash.

A big shoota shooting at a guardsmen in cover (4+ save) kills roughly .33 guardsmen a turn. So you'd need 3 Big Shootas just to kill 1 4 point guardsmen.

Meanwhile, the heavy bolter at 10 points average twice as many hits (potentially more with a nearby Chapter Master) and has AP-1. It's more than twice as effective against pretty much every target.

Spending 5 points on it is typically a bad investment. When it's baked in on a useful platform like a Megatrakk, though, it's not so bad.

Rockets at 12 points, or KMB at 9 points, simply outperform Big Shootas. The shoota at 0 points is also not that much worse, outside of range.

I played against orks today. Man that was a mixed feeling. Fun though! That Sparkly Bits upgread is really something.

Anyway, my friend is a really slow player. Turn 1 with nids, I did some psykick powers and shot a bit. I had casteled up against his turn 1 charges so I saw no reason to move. Now his turn. I took some pictures and notised that we had spent 59 minuts on the first game turn of the game! Considering how little of the time I spent I know he must have speend an enourmus amount of time. The game goes on for ever to the point of being unbearable and we never finish.

Is there some way to make him play faster? Please do not say movement trays, because he has movement trays. If anything they make it slower because they keep not having the formations he wants and models keep falling down. He was playing 90 buys in 3 groups and was running da green tide stratagem on top of that. I have no idea how he takes this long!

Green tide is slow and unbearable.
He can know his rules and plan faster and skip some rolls that are meaningless like shooting that’s likely to do nothing.
Multiple sets of dice specific to units or a dice app.
Less models is faster.
Green tide for me is mostly just for weekend narrative games now. It’s a problem to fit it into a 2-3 hour club game.
I end up playing killteam a lot due to this lack of time.

Have about 2 thirds of the unit bluetacked onto movement trays, taking out and putting them back as needed to make multiples of 5. At least that's how I run my green tide and usually finish before some of the more elite armies during tourneys.

That and, let's be honest in regards to playing green tide, it's very much a blunt object swung at the opponent, not exactly needing find maneuvering and exact application of force. Just throw the boyz at the enemy and hope they stop twitching before the boyz mobs do.