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Bloodaxes would probably make a pretty decent space marine chapter or eldar craftworld

if cover was still a static 5+ save unless ignored or specified its a 4+ that trait would be useful.
The fact that AP bypasses cover now renders cover useless unless you already have a high save.

Bloodaxes might as well not even have that perk, only the vehicles actually benefit from it due to the huge range limiter on it but then you lose the reroll perks (and most of whats gonna hit them at that far would still render them to a 6+ or worse, so might as well just have the 6++ from Deathskullz)

Even if that trait was just "in cover at all times" it wouldnt be that amazing. Like what was already stated, boyz getting a 5+ isnt that great since its so easily ignored anyway.

 Jidmah wrote:
Bloodaxes would probably make a pretty decent space marine chapter or eldar craftworld

Yeah exactly. The rules are actually solid. I think that's why people place Axes above a lot of the other low tier cultures, and probably closer to Freebootas in terms of quality.

It's just a square peg for a round hole. Maybe when we get Orkercessors for 17 points with 30-36" range guns we'll have a Blood Axe revolution.

Yeah, if it was 12" instead of 18", you'd really have a serious contender, I think. That extra 6" is a huge deal... getting a cover bonus unless you're in charge range? Yikes. 18" is just a touch too much padding.

But it leads to some fun things. Like how, at 18:, Blood Axe Nobs are comparable to Primaris Marines, with a T 4, 2 ounds, and an effective save of 3+. If they can scavenge a vehicle when it blows up, they get downright rugged.

I'm also curious how well it works with 'Ard boys. Sure, a 4+ save isn't AMAZING in today's game, but it's not horrible, either.

Just some little techybits that I want to fiddle around with on the table, see if it can't get to clickin'.

Wakshaani wrote:
Yeah, if it was 12" instead of 18", you'd really have a serious contender, I think. That extra 6" is a huge deal... getting a cover bonus unless you're in charge range? Yikes. 18" is just a touch too much padding.

But it leads to some fun things. Like how, at 18:, Blood Axe Nobs are comparable to Primaris Marines, with a T 4, 2 ounds, and an effective save of 3+. If they can scavenge a vehicle when it blows up, they get downright rugged.

I'm also curious how well it works with 'Ard boys. Sure, a 4+ save isn't AMAZING in today's game, but it's not horrible, either.

Just some little techybits that I want to fiddle around with on the table, see if it can't get to clickin'.

Paying 2 CP to make your boys a 5+, or 4+ is not a good idea. if Ard Boys was 1 CP... maybe?

I like Nobs on paper a lot. Like the 16 point version you can build is this:

Kustom Shoota, Choppa.
4 Shots at 18", 4 attacks base (3 + choppa) at str 5, 4+ save, 2 wounds.

This sort of seems close to being an intercessor... They hit the same amount I think (2 shots at BS3+ hits the same as 4 shots at BS5+ on average, ignoring exploding 6's). But I just don't think they land. Not being troops for one. The range of their guns being 18" hurts, and there's no real way of upgrading their AP outside of Best Skulls new psychic power.

If Nobs were troops, I wonder if they would make more of an appearance in Ork lists.

tulun wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:
Yeah, if it was 12" instead of 18", you'd really have a serious contender, I think. That extra 6" is a huge deal... getting a cover bonus unless you're in charge range? Yikes. 18" is just a touch too much padding.

But it leads to some fun things. Like how, at 18:, Blood Axe Nobs are comparable to Primaris Marines, with a T 4, 2 ounds, and an effective save of 3+. If they can scavenge a vehicle when it blows up, they get downright rugged.

I'm also curious how well it works with 'Ard boys. Sure, a 4+ save isn't AMAZING in today's game, but it's not horrible, either.

Just some little techybits that I want to fiddle around with on the table, see if it can't get to clickin'.

Paying 2 CP to make your boys a 5+, or 4+ is not a good idea. if Ard Boys was 1 CP... maybe?

I like Nobs on paper a lot. Like the 16 point version you can build is this:

Kustom Shoota, Choppa.
4 Shots at 18", 4 attacks base (3 + choppa) at str 5, 4+ save, 2 wounds.

This sort of seems close to being an intercessor... They hit the same amount I think (2 shots at BS3+ hits the same as 4 shots at BS5+ on average, ignoring exploding 6's). But I just don't think they land. Not being troops for one. The range of their guns being 18" hurts, and there's no real way of upgrading their AP outside of Best Skulls new psychic power.

If Nobs were troops, I wonder if they would make more of an appearance in Ork lists.

Yeah, the Ard Boyz stratagem is inherently flawed. It was clear GW was worried about a wombo combo of some sort of combining Loot It! and BA trait/cover to get really "high" armour save Ork units. Unfortunately, they also failed to factor that they throw high AP weapons around like candy, so the 5+ save they value at such a high CP cost is pretty much ignored by the rest of the armies in the game. The worst part is that there is an infinitely more cost effective alternative with the KFF, that applies across multiple units and (assuming the newest version is intended) it applies in CC as well, making the stratagem an overpriced dud. You'd have to make it 1 CP for a 4+ save for an Ork boy unit to be considered worth it, since the majority of weapons will already reduce the save to a 5+ or lower and we're already CP starved given how much we spend it before the game starts.

Frankly, I wish GW would just give more variation for saves in Ork units in general, since the Ork elites section should have slightly heavier armour than Boyz to begin with. Lootas, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz and Kommandos could all do with a baseline 5+ save so that they could actually benefit from using Loot It in some way.

 Grimskul wrote:


Yeah, the Ard Boyz stratagem is inherently flawed. It was clear GW was worried about a wombo combo of some sort of combining Loot It! and BA trait/cover to get really "high" armour save Ork units. Unfortunately, they also failed to factor that they throw high AP weapons around like candy, so the 5+ save they value at such a high CP cost is pretty much ignored by the rest of the armies in the game. The worst part is that there is an infinitely more cost effective alternative with the KFF, that applies across multiple units and (assuming the newest version is intended) it applies in CC as well, making the stratagem an overpriced dud. You'd have to make it 1 CP for a 4+ save for an Ork boy unit to be considered worth it, since the majority of weapons will already reduce the save to a 5+ or lower and we're already CP starved given how much we spend it before the game starts.

Frankly, I wish GW would just give more variation for saves in Ork units in general, since the Ork elites section should have slightly heavier armour than Boyz to begin with. Lootas, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz and Kommandos could all do with a baseline 5+ save so that they could actually benefit from using Loot It in some way.

Yeah, I agree. You'd think some of this heavy bulky equipment might give them more of a save anyway that the elite units hold.

Given the fact that Orks are super CP hungry, having only 2 troop choices is really annoying too. It would be nice to have way more variation or some ability to pay for some variation.

yeah more troops would be nice. Even if its still boyz at heart but a vastly different configuration, like ones that are actually geared to be Trukkboyz or something.

Boyz are such garbage if they arent 30 strong, which isnt cheap. So really, all we have is grots right now +1 maybe 2 boyz lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah more troops would be nice. Even if its still boyz at heart but a vastly different configuration, like ones that are actually geared to be Trukkboyz or something.

Boyz are such garbage if they arent 30 strong, which isnt cheap. So really, all we have is grots right now +1 maybe 2 boyz lol

I think it's even more frustrating than that.

As it was stated earlier, it seems like the best use of boys at a high competitive level is 30 strong out of Deep Strike, be it Tellyporta or Da Jump; but you can't just taking 1 unit either and have it be effective. If you commit to 30 boys, you pretty much have to commit to 90 realistically, pushing this point cost north of 630 before adding Nob upgrades, and not even including the potential painboy / Mad Dok. I'd ignore the KFF mek, because you should probably always be taking one of these anyway, regardless of your list.

It would be nice if I could just take a couple 20 man boy squads and have a semi efficient use of the unit, but I'm not sure this really exists in the current meta of 40k. You pretty much have to go balls deep into boys or ignore them completely, which is rather limiting when our only other option is Gretchin.

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah more troops would be nice. Even if its still boyz at heart but a vastly different configuration, like ones that are actually geared to be Trukkboyz or something.

Boyz are such garbage if they arent 30 strong, which isnt cheap. So really, all we have is grots right now +1 maybe 2 boyz lol

I think it's even more frustrating than that.

As it was stated earlier, it seems like the best use of boys at a high competitive level is 30 strong out of Deep Strike, be it Tellyporta or Da Jump; but you can't just taking 1 unit either and have it be effective. If you commit to 30 boys, you pretty much have to commit to 90 realistically, pushing this point cost north of 630 before adding Nob upgrades, and not even including the potential painboy / Mad Dok. I'd ignore the KFF mek, because you should probably always be taking one of these anyway, regardless of your list.

It would be nice if I could just take a couple 20 man boy squads and have a semi efficient use of the unit, but I'm not sure this really exists in the current meta of 40k. You pretty much have to go balls deep into boys or ignore them completely, which is rather limiting when our only other option is Gretchin.

Yeah, it makes list building that much more monotonous since realistically its literally either a tide of boyz or gretchin as our core, which really limits the theme of some of the other lists we have like Dred Mob and Buggy or even Nob-oriented lists. If they made regular Nobz troops or, as Vineheart01 previously mentioned, a new Trukkboyz variant was created that gained some extra bonus for being in or disembarking a transport, it would be really good, even if the only thing they gained was being able to disembark and charge even after the Trukk has already moved. Just to add more variety in our lists and make it less predictable as well for our opponents. Heck, I'd be fine with Stikkbombas coming back in some fashion.

I'd personally like to see Shootaboys get their own entry separate from the standard boyz, or maybe split it into "Gorkka Boyz" and :Morka Boyz" with two different stat lines. (Gorka are what we're used to, Morka have WS 4+, BS 4+, and Str 3, like they originally had.

.

Of course, I'd also drop them all from 2 attacks to 1 and drop the cost of a boy to 5.

.

And I'd add "Improved armor" to a 5+ for 2 points.

.

And I'd probably add 'Ard Boyz, with a 4+ save, as a new troop choice.

.

And top it off with "Yoofs" because we need some of those guys stomping around in uniforms and polished boots to stick it to the older generation. "Dat's right! We's gonna march! In FORMATION!" "Augh! Kids these days! They don't know how to be muckin' about!"

Wakshaani wrote:
I'd personally like to see Shootaboys get their own entry separate from the standard boyz, or maybe split it into "Gorkka Boyz" and :Morka Boyz" with two different stat lines. (Gorka are what we're used to, Morka have WS 4+, BS 4+, and Str 3, like they originally had.

.

Of course, I'd also drop them all from 2 attacks to 1 and drop the cost of a boy to 5.

.

And I'd add "Improved armor" to a 5+ for 2 points.

.

And I'd probably add 'Ard Boyz, with a 4+ save, as a new troop choice.

.

And top it off with "Yoofs" because we need some of those guys stomping around in uniforms and polished boots to stick it to the older generation. "Dat's right! We's gonna march! In FORMATION!" "Augh! Kids these days! They don't know how to be muckin' about!"

To be honest, having a different profile for shoota boyz versus slugga/choppa boyz would be a good way of introducing weapon variety as well since upgrades are pretty much non-existent for boyz mobs at this point in 8th ed. At BS4+, rokkit launchas aren't a terrible investment in the unit, especially Bad Moonz shoota boyz. If they ever cut the price of BS to 2 points or something, they might also even be worth taking. Slugga boyz could take burnas or big choppas as special weapons. Ard Boyz should never have been a stratagem based unit to be honest and having them as a separate unit entry would also make it so that we can have an semi-elite esque army without having to resort to grot filler or losing out on vital CP's.

For anyone tearfully looking at their enormous painted Blood Axes army and wondering whether to repaint, just tell opponents that it counts-as a Deathskulls army who looted everything from Blood Axes

 Grimskul wrote:

Yeah, it makes list building that much more monotonous since realistically its literally either a tide of boyz or gretchin as our core, which really limits the theme of some of the other lists we have like Dred Mob and Buggy or even Nob-oriented lists. If they made regular Nobz troops or, as Vineheart01 previously mentioned, a new Trukkboyz variant was created that gained some extra bonus for being in or disembarking a transport, it would be really good, even if the only thing they gained was being able to disembark and charge even after the Trukk has already moved. Just to add more variety in our lists and make it less predictable as well for our opponents. Heck, I'd be fine with Stikkbombas coming back in some fashion.

Or if whole army building wasn't focused on getting as much CP by filling in as many battalions/brigades as you can...

Stil think armies should start with base CP amount and each detachment would deduct CP rather than give.

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah more troops would be nice. Even if its still boyz at heart but a vastly different configuration, like ones that are actually geared to be Trukkboyz or something.

Boyz are such garbage if they arent 30 strong, which isnt cheap. So really, all we have is grots right now +1 maybe 2 boyz lol

I think it's even more frustrating than that.

As it was stated earlier, it seems like the best use of boys at a high competitive level is 30 strong out of Deep Strike, be it Tellyporta or Da Jump; but you can't just taking 1 unit either and have it be effective. If you commit to 30 boys, you pretty much have to commit to 90 realistically, pushing this point cost north of 630 before adding Nob upgrades, and not even including the potential painboy / Mad Dok. I'd ignore the KFF mek, because you should probably always be taking one of these anyway, regardless of your list.

We have seen plenty of lists with just 60 boyz, but in general I agree. Having 210 point troops sucks.

It would be nice if I could just take a couple 20 man boy squads and have a semi efficient use of the unit, but I'm not sure this really exists in the current meta of 40k. You pretty much have to go balls deep into boys or ignore them completely, which is rather limiting when our only other option is Gretchin.

Being able to disembark after moving would instantly make mobs of 12/20 a lot better than they are now. If 9th comes, it hopefully changes how transports work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
I'd personally like to see Shootaboys get their own entry separate from the standard boyz, or maybe split it into "Gorkka Boyz" and :Morka Boyz" with two different stat lines. (Gorka are what we're used to, Morka have WS 4+, BS 4+, and Str 3, like they originally had.

.

Of course, I'd also drop them all from 2 attacks to 1 and drop the cost of a boy to 5.

.

And I'd add "Improved armor" to a 5+ for 2 points.

.

And I'd probably add 'Ard Boyz, with a 4+ save, as a new troop choice.

.

And top it off with "Yoofs" because we need some of those guys stomping around in uniforms and polished boots to stick it to the older generation. "Dat's right! We's gonna march! In FORMATION!" "Augh! Kids these days! They don't know how to be muckin' about!"

That's just imperial guard though...
I don't think armor or a better BS will solve any of their problems. Going back down to 6ppm would help, as would cheaper big shootas and rokkits. Considering how the sprue has both, it might even viable to say shoota boyz can have both a big shoota and a rokkit for every 10 boyz in the mob.

Boys should be allowed some more weapon options outside of the Nob.

Extra melee choice in there for every 5-10 dudes included would be comparable to many other army.

Bigdoza wrote:
Boys should be allowed some more weapon options outside of the Nob.

Extra melee choice in there for every 5-10 dudes included would be comparable to many other army.

It takes much longer to play units with different weapons inside it, such as genestealers with acid maws. I personally think it’s not a good idea at all for that reason. Perhaps if one day this game gets speeded up with different rules

Lol could you imagine a big Choppa mob.

Like you saying keep all weapons the same, just make it 30 big choppas haha.

Expensive as hell. 30 boys what 360 pts

If they made a separate Troop slot called trukkboys for 7 or 8ppm with;

- Same statline and gear options as boyz
- Instead of "green tide" they get the ability to move, advance & charge after the trukk they're embarked on has moved
- Unit size of 6-12

Would people then use them? You'd get pretty cheap troop slots but the trukk itself ain't that cheap. And while even 6 boyz can mulch some screens that'd be their primary use (and tagging things if possible). Sure, they'd be super mobile but I'm not sure it's enough to justify using them even then..

Edit: Either they're 8ppm or they're 7ppm but then only legally taken if they start inside a trukk (meaning you can't take them as cheap small squads of boyz without splurging on a trukk as well)

Simply put, boys need to go back to 6ppm and they need to offer a 1ppm upgrade to 5+ armor.

The fact is that 5+ armor isn't anything to write home about and would only give them a marginal increase in durability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, compare a 7ppm boy to a 4ppm Guardsman. The Guardsman is hands down better at range and has a lot of upsides, the boy is just way better at CC.

I would pay more than 1pt for 5+ boys

it used to be 4ppm for a 4+, making boyz 10pts.

Nobody did that because of the way old AP worked, ignoring a 4+ was really easy and it almost doubled your boy cost.

1pt for 5+ with any ap basically removing it sounds right. Theres so many high RoF ap1 out there that its not that big a deal to goto a 5+ save, even if it means cover = 4+

Nobs as troops seems reasonable to me too without changing much.

5 Nobs with big choppa, choppa and 1 grot shield 99 points. I could see that being a nice cheap throw away unit to Da Jump and charge, and it has decent punch even at 5 models. Add in warpath.

Bigdoza wrote:
Lol could you imagine a big Choppa mob.

Like you saying keep all weapons the same, just make it 30 big choppas haha.

That would be great stuff, if like BC for boys was 2 pts. 9 points BC boyz feels balanced. Don’t think many would use them though. I definitely would

270 points for 30 boyz which would decimate what they touch, but still die like normal boyz

I always liked the idea of separating sluga boys and shoota boys. I would also go one step further to add "Trukkboys" as well, for 3 unique variations on the Boys profile.

Shoota boys I would allow more big shootas, and drop the cost for them. EG up to half the mob can have big shootas. massed, long range but still not OP firepower. Big Shootas would be quite good if half a mob had them, and they camped in the backfield using their 36" range.
Otherwise I would keep their stats the same - higher BS orks isn't how orks do, they use more bullets to get more hits.

Slugga boys would be as-is

Trukkboys would have the ability to declare a charge from their trukk, mesuring from the trukk as if it were the closest model in the unit. Overwatch still applies as if the unit were on the board, and the unit is deployed with none of their models outside the charge roll distance from the trukk - possibly in combat (let's face it, if they fail that charge they'll probably die, so it's a gamble!).

I want to see more flavours of Nobs as well - perhaps a Nob parody of the Aggressors, with low-grade mega armour (5" move, 3+ save) and dual-guns to kick out all the dakka. 10 nobs with 2 big shootas apiece and a 3+ save would be an awesome chaff-clearing unit to behold!

The ability to straight up charge out of a trukk would be hilarious and very fitting for orks. Even if the boyz got absolutely nothing else i'd use them for that alone lol

And i agree, we need a shooty nob thats worth a damn. Flash Gitz dont count, theyre their own thing (also freeboota locked). Honestly if they just allowed the current nob to take dual Kustom Shootas it would be potent, thats 40(edit, 80) S4 shots at 160pts and still has 30 S5 melee punches.

/wishlistingoff

Unfortunately with PA already passed unless they release a random new Boy kit i MASSIVELY doubt we'll get anything in that field.

Do you mean 80 str 4 shots? Kustom Shootas are 4 shots each.

Cause they can technically already do that (40 shots) except they have 4 base attacks with the choppa

Assuming index options for Nobs is still a thing.

Derp right why'd i think 40....

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Derp right why'd i think 40....

I actually got some Kustom Shoota bits to build some Nobs with that kind of loadout (choppa / Kustom Shoota), with a couple Big Choppa nobs mixed in.

I think I'll bring em out for fun in the next couple of games I play. Combo it with Maniacal Seizure to get a butt load of AP-1 (or AP-2 BCs).