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Valid.
That spell is bonkers good, i may want to go back to kustom/choppa instead of dual-choppas because of it.
That and avoid all the "That isnt legal" comments..yes..its legal to do that...its not legal to take 2 of the "2h weapons" like kombis or bigchoppas.

I'm not sure it's valid, as GW has not been explicit about index options.

But that's what magnets are for.

And yeah, I totally agree. Seizure is so damn potent. AP-1 Choppas / Shoota shots are just a game changer.

If folks find good ways of maximizing the use of it, it'll push some fun builds imo. Big Shootas platforms (like on the Megatrakk) start to look a helluva lot better just by increasing that AP by 1, and a lot of armies have death ball units you wanna pour fire into anyway.

The inability of being able to charge out of a trukk that has moved is only one of several issues with Trukk mobs.

You still have to deal with the Trukk tax itself, their poor morale (because by the end of the turn, 4-5 will be dead and it's unlikely there are any masses of Orks nearby for them to borrow the mob rule from), low attack output from the limited numbers and not getting Green Tide, and just overall lack of impact thanks to the neutering of the hidden PK.

they took so much from us and slapped it into legends i keep forgetting what is and isnt still around..

Nobz cant even use kustom shootas w/o legends. So annoying....

 Vineheart01 wrote:
they took so much from us and slapped it into legends i keep forgetting what is and isnt still around..

Nobz cant even use kustom shootas w/o legends. So annoying....

Actually it's in a weirder space than that.

Nobs aren't mentioned in legends period.

And the index flowchart was modified quietly (disappeared).

So officially, index options are... who the hell knows.

It might literally be illegal to give a nob a kustom shoota.

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
they took so much from us and slapped it into legends i keep forgetting what is and isnt still around..

Nobz cant even use kustom shootas w/o legends. So annoying....

Actually it's in a weirder space than that.

Nobs aren't mentioned in legends period.

And the index flowchart was modified quietly (disappeared).

So officially, index options are... who the hell knows.

It might literally be illegal to give a nob a kustom shoota.

One of the few times I'm glad I'm not in a hyper comp environment and indexes are still valid. I find it incredibly annoying that they take away all the flavourful options because of the "no model, no rules" stance since frankly it seems counterintuitive even in terms of sales. Wouldn't you want customers to buy extra kits to make the stuff that isn't a clampack that they sell? Their attempts to deny the 3rd party market after the Chapterhouse debacle seems spiteful and damaging long-term wise for their range, outside of their marine poster boys.

The only way i could see them viewing the kitbashing scene as a loss in sales is when you see the kits that use generic modeling kits like A10's for Dakkajets or old WW2 tanks "orkified"
Those are kinda rare though, i see one or two of them occationally but i more see a weird mashup of 2-3 or more GW kits. So i agree, it seems really dumb to take away options that arent part of the kit normally. Hell in that recent article showing off someone's really large, heavily kitbashed model the dude had a THUNDERHAWK kitbashed into his army lol we dont even have rules for a big plane (yet, hopful for 'Eavy Bomma still)

As ive said before it would have been fine for them to goto this new "no model no rules" mentality if they properly updated our kits first. Most armies lost a couple of things, we lost well over a dozen rather popular things. A ton of our codex options were kitbash or finecast kit only (or both...kommandos?).

Bigdoza wrote:
I would pay more than 1pt for 5+ boys

As already pointed out, it used to be 4ppm to upgrade Boyz from a 6+ to a 4+. That made boyz go from 6ppm to 10ppm and nobody used it except a handful of fluffy for fun armies, none on the competitive scene. Boyz are ok right now at 7ppm but in most competitive lists they take a backseat to 3ppm Grotz who are just better for CP generation and grot shielding important things. At 6ppm they would still be in a very similar place but give them the option to go up to 7ppm with a 5+ save? Yeah I would probably use that, make it 8 and maybe, 9+? No way. As it stands there are so many different ways for armies to just completely ignore 6+ saves and a number that ignore 5+ that its ridiculous. So pricing a bad armor save that heavily would be silly. Now, if it was going to 4+ save? yeah, that would be important, 3+ more so. Keep in mind how cheap tactical Marines are and remember they have a 3+ save and with their new buffs they are AS good at CC model for model as an ork boy on the charge. 1 attack base, 1 for charge and 1 for having a Chainsword. I think 7ppm boys with a 5+ wouldn't be that bad.

As long as we wouldn't pay for it.

We already get a 5++ with the KFF. Yeah you can't always stay in range, but it would be awful to pay for an armour save that really isn't going to pull much weight, given AP-1 mass infantry fire is abundant in high level play.

Boys are the backbone of current top table lists. Jeff Poole had... 115 boys or so? So there's something that they do well to make Top 8.

It would just be nice to be able take them in smaller amounts and not gimp yourself in list building.

The most I'd be willing to pay for a mob of 4+ boyz would be 1CP.

Current top list are just the thing we had before there was a codex. Drown the table in boyz while you put pressure on your opponent and blow up their stuff with undercosted smashas. The only difference is that there are now stratagems. Meh.

Would you use Trukk Boyz if they worked something like this:

9ppm, with same stat line as Boyz.

'Da Trukk Protects!

Trukk Boyz count Trukkz as a mob of 10+ Boyz for the purposes of Mob Rulez.'

'Mobile Assault

Trukk Boyz may assault out of a Trukk even if it has moved or advanced. The assault is measured from the Trukk's hull.'

''Eavy Metal Charge

When charging out of a Trukk that has advanced Trukk Boyz gain +1 str and -1 ap for the round.'

Before you fix trukk boys you need to fix the trukks. They just aren’t competitive regardless if you put tankbustas or boys or nobz or MANZ in them.

If we ever get a 9th edition and they decide to trim down rules again maybe they can incorporate loot it strategem into the trukks profile. Or improve ramshackle. Regardless it’s getting to the point strategems are just updates to improve weak units so I don’t expect a new profile but rather strategems or specialized detachments to improve trukk boyz

I don't know that trukks need to be improved, just made cheaper. Current ramshackle is bad for the points you pay on the unit, if we were paying 40-50 points for a BS Trukk it'd feel right - you wouldn't want it to be too good or Trukks would be spammed as roadblocks, but as it is that odd damage 5 Lascannon shot that is effectively wasted feels like it would be an appropriate reward at that reduced cost on top of the general function of the Trukk.

I know, an opponent shooting lascannons at a Trukk is making a mistake to begin with, but I encounter it often enough when they don't have enough targets because I've hidden others, or they want more impact in their T1 shooting and don't want to throw everything against the KFF shielded vehicles (I'm stubborn enough to still run 3-4 Trukk mobs, it works ok with the overall vehicle saturation in my list) so they settle for trying to pop a Trukk early.

actually i commonly get a rocket or lascannon hitting my trucks.
Generally its just 1 of those and a handful of small arms to kill it and if theres anything other than boyz in that trukk theres a valid reason to taking it out quickly.
I do think trukks need to be cheaper. They cost almost the exact same a rhino does and is way easier to kill. Really all it has going for it is the Wrecking Ball, while inaccurate, if it hits can still do a ton of damage and its only 3pts so why not use it.
Ramshackle almost never goes off for me. I think ive had 1 instance where it happened and forced my opponent to charge or shoot the trukk with something else to get rid of it, other times if i get it at all i still died anyway. I still wish wagons had that rule though, theyre just trukks with extra stuff slapped on after all.

Honestly, Trukks seem to be better as shooting platforms than assault platforms with their cost / rules as is.

Protecting Flash Gits / Tankbustas seems to be more important than assaulting out of them. I'd rather take an extra 10 boys than the trukk, as I have a delivery system for boys via Deepstrike.

What do 11 boys + 1 nob realistically do for you if you charge, especially after eating an overwatch?

Ramshackle should be turned into a feel no pain like ability at 5+ thus making your trukks and any vehicles that need ramshackle more 1/3 more durable which is a major trukk issue.

A 1 pt strategem allowing a unit to disembark and charge after moving in a trukk or wagon would be useful as well.

Cost is an issue but trukks don’t have a clear purpose right now.

Trukks are in a really weird spot right now, as others have mentioned, it's better as a shooting platform than an assault transport, partly with how disembarking works with this edition, but also from its complete and utter lack of offensive ability and almost nil defensive properties.

I feel like either the trukk has to go down in overall durability for a cheaper base cost (tougher than a venom but less than what it is now), or that it has to be worth the premium price point it's set right now. The big shoota is a complete tax that frankly should be optional and all the vehicle upgrades don't really do anything. At most, reinforced rams should give them the buggy ability of doing mortal wounds on a 4+ after a successful charge. Boarding planks should give the disembark and charge ability if its not a rule inherent to a trukk boyz or trukk unit itself (would help battlewagons as well). Have the wreckin' ball act as a pseudo deffrolla for trukks by giving them +2 to hit in CC (+3 to hit and D3 extra attcks if they charged that turn).

I agree with the previous poster that Ramshackle should be a more consistent ability, either as a 5+ FNP or 5+ to reduce damage to it to 1, since on a 6, it feels like we're paying for an ability that happens once every 3 games or something.

So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

The most cost effective way that isnt tapping into 3D printing for smasha guns is to just kitbash them out of trukk kits.
Its still pricy but nowhere near as bad. All the alternative models ive seen have either been a Kannon or just about as expensive.

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

I'm pretty sure there's a model 57 or 75mm field gun kit from tamiya that is a little bit bigger footprint than our arty kit but is like 12 bucks per set rather than 50.

I am currently using some grot tanks as mek guns.
Alternatively you can always make your owns with plasticard.

Following are mines.

you know its pretty bad when a forgeworld alternative is cheaper....

I use 6x GW kits magnetized to all variants. It’s pretty much my limit on any non infantry model. I refuse to buy more so I generally don’t chase spam lists.

Almost every tournament list I’ve seen has some form of kit bash used instead of using 18.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
I am currently using some grot tanks as mek guns.
Alternatively you can always make your owns with plasticard.

Following are mines.

Them some damn nice Mek guns. Though admittedly if I saw them on the field i'd assume they were Kustom Mega Kannons rather then Smasha Guns.

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

I'm a big fan of the Goblin Gunz by Minature Scenery. You get 3 Mek Gunz for less than the cost of 1. They're Australian, which is great for me but might mean expensive shipping for those of you overseas. Our dollar tends to be weaker than other currencies, so you probably still come out ahead. No grots included but you can easily compensate with some minor conversions to regular grots.

Smasha gunz - there are pretty fine wargamexclusive alternatives, but still about 30 e instead 40.

The best way is kitbash. Traditional way is 3 different gunz from Trukk and 1 gun. But in may opinion, there is more interesting and effective way.

1. You need a wheels or tracks. Hop in the big toy store, check the toy tanks and APC. the best buy are 8x8 APC. You get 8 wheels a lot of plastic with details to saw in a parts. Dollar stores should be cheaper, but it' s hard to find suitable models to harvest there.

2. You need a gun. Look around you, there is quite a lot of potentional sci-fi guns. There are spark plugs pf course. Ad a plastic card tips and you have a great smusha gunz. Or there are parts of cabels, pc, radio. Or there are plastic tips from markers, medicine and cosmetics.

3. Kitbash the rest form trukk and other models. Add gw details to fit your kitbash to scale and style of other models.

Have fun.

Btw. super fine source of different parts are hasegawa german railroad gunz like Leopold / Enzo Enie. So much details! So much good parts. Adam Sawage describes how almost every Star Wars ship or building have some details fromthwt kit.

And now back to tactics!

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

Check out the ‘toy soldier’ options on eBay for their artillery pieces. They tend to be in an outer style, if somewhat femme on the wheels. A good source of wheels is cheap toy cars. The only down side to this is they are not GW, and are in the polythene plastic which makes glueing an issue. I find screws a better option. Enjoy.

 Quackzo wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

I'm a big fan of the Goblin Gunz by Minature Scenery. You get 3 Mek Gunz for less than the cost of 1. They're Australian, which is great for me but might mean expensive shipping for those of you overseas. Our dollar tends to be weaker than other currencies, so you probably still come out ahead. No grots included but you can easily compensate with some minor conversions to regular grots.

Oh those are some nice Mek Gunz, the magnet is an adorable thing to use for a traktor gun. xP

Im using these as a baseline, but havnt done much of the work yet.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N36YQIP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

weaver9 wrote:
So I'm a fairly competitive player, my play group does itc, and almost never is something brought because of fluff.

That being said I'm having a hard time, as I explore orkz, not always including a Grot Mobz detachment with smasha guns.

That being said, this is all onTTS.... spending 800 dollars on smasha guns is a bit much imo. Anyone have good suggestions for alternative models?

Check out Goblin Gunz at https://miniaturescenery.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=19 for a fraction of that.

Caveat... it's a bit of a challenge to assemble but looks amazingly orky.

edit: ninja'ed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So... I've been on 40k hiatus for a bit after giving all of my armies to my son except for Orks... I'm thinking of diving back in.

I've played 8th ed extensively mainly with DE and Daemons/CSM, but I'm definitely an Ork newbie.

I'm planning on assembling 16 Goblin Gunz from miniature scenery (having decided to field all those tho) as I know they're one of the best shooting platform.

How competitive are the following:
-30 man boys (either set at this unit size, or mobbing up 10man & 20man) and Da Jumping turn one? (also Warpath'ing too?) Not sure I want to go full bore 40 man mobbed up unit, but I'm just looking to field one big boyz unit, then rest of the troops being gretchins. Is one big mob enough to give opponents fits? Or is this one of those tactics that if I'm going with large mobs of boyz, it's better to have multiples?

-What's better? Three CC Deff Dreads (each 2x klaw, 1x saw, scorcha with KJ Dirty Gubbinz) or 6x shoota Killa Kans (with KJ sparkly bits)? I plan on Tellyporta for turn 2 Carnifex distraction...

-I know warbikers isn't a thing in 8th ed, and I have a ton from my 5th ed days... but, wouldn't a maxed out warbiker squad function as simply a mobile shooting platform? Mainly targeting large cheap squads or small elite units?