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gungo wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
One thing that has popped into my mind. How good would Deffkopta spam be in the current meta? Make em speed freaks and throw in a wartrike and you've got 23" move before even rolling for charge.

I like deffkoptas but I’m not exactly sure they will be in our next codex unless they get a new model. I don’t see the current model surviving the transition.

I find deffkoptas speed fine thier issue is expensive rokkits and poor shooting platforms. They also lost a lot of options like kmg and bombs. If we ever get a new model I think giving them bombs and having those bombs be affected by pyro subkulture would make them better.

Right now the best load out for deffkoptas are flyboys or bloodaxe w the new psyker. They become essentially 3+ save models that are ok in combat and either have -1 to hit in melee or can’t be hit by overwatch. Regardless koptas are mostly for objectives or filling out a brigade.

I'm a big believer of the simple Twin Bigshoota on a squad of three koptas. 99 points, 36" range, can zip about and keep up being annoying gnats, and ableto dart into close combat if needed, tie someone up, then flip away and do it again as needed … just a handy little harassment unit. It isn't the Big Boom of the Rokkits, but they're *cheap*, with a cost-per-wound about on par with a boy but with a better toughness, better save, higher movement, and about the same firepower (6 Big Shoota shots vs 8 Shoota shots, but with +18" range and +1 Str) … not as much CC ability, but... Orks. You have that covered elsewhere.

Soembody will probably come along and math it into the dirt, to show how much better Rokkits are, but, the situational use, and the low cost, are more important to me than raw killpower.

Wakshaani wrote:

gungo wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
One thing that has popped into my mind. How good would Deffkopta spam be in the current meta? Make em speed freaks and throw in a wartrike and you've got 23" move before even rolling for charge.

I like deffkoptas but I’m not exactly sure they will be in our next codex unless they get a new model. I don’t see the current model surviving the transition.

I find deffkoptas speed fine thier issue is expensive rokkits and poor shooting platforms. They also lost a lot of options like kmg and bombs. If we ever get a new model I think giving them bombs and having those bombs be affected by pyro subkulture would make them better.

Right now the best load out for deffkoptas are flyboys or bloodaxe w the new psyker. They become essentially 3+ save models that are ok in combat and either have -1 to hit in melee or can’t be hit by overwatch. Regardless koptas are mostly for objectives or filling out a brigade.

I'm a big believer of the simple Twin Bigshoota on a squad of three koptas. 99 points, 36" range, can zip about and keep up being annoying gnats, and ableto dart into close combat if needed, tie someone up, then flip away and do it again as needed … just a handy little harassment unit. It isn't the Big Boom of the Rokkits, but they're *cheap*, with a cost-per-wound about on par with a boy but with a better toughness, better save, higher movement, and about the same firepower (6 Big Shoota shots vs 8 Shoota shots, but with +18" range and +1 Str) … not as much CC ability, but... Orks. You have that covered elsewhere.

Soembody will probably come along and math it into the dirt, to show how much better Rokkits are, but, the situational use, and the low cost, are more important to me than raw killpower.

Honestly, unless your group removes Legends units, just do this with Kustom Mega Blastas, which makes them 29 points each, and is a much better gun.

The biggest issue tbh is that big shootas are just terrible. One off Rocket Koptas are probably better objective taggers than a unit of 3 big shoota ones.

Agree. For a unit that can't shoot, can't melee and can't hold objectives, it's all but irrelevant how many points you pay per wound.

If GW pointed big shootas properly (And by extension warbikers) so many units in the ork roster would receive some nice boosts in play. My only thoughts is they look at the max damage ork stuff can do rather than the average it will do.

oh they do. They made it rather obvious they only balance in a vacuum. Orks have a lot of unusually expensive random shot weapons that feel priced for a space marine's BS, not an orks.
Literally all they need to do to bigshootas is give'm an AP. What is it, we need 4 bigshootas to match 1 heavy bolter in terms of damage output? kinda ridiculous.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
oh they do. They made it rather obvious they only balance in a vacuum. Orks have a lot of unusually expensive random shot weapons that feel priced for a space marine's BS, not an orks.
Literally all they need to do to bigshootas is give'm an AP. What is it, we need 4 bigshootas to match 1 heavy bolter in terms of damage output? kinda ridiculous.

Seems to nail it on the head.

They hit half as much as HBs, so are half the cost, if AP-1, this makes sense.

AP0 really kills it. Or they need to be 2-3 points.

tulun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
oh they do. They made it rather obvious they only balance in a vacuum. Orks have a lot of unusually expensive random shot weapons that feel priced for a space marine's BS, not an orks.
Literally all they need to do to bigshootas is give'm an AP. What is it, we need 4 bigshootas to match 1 heavy bolter in terms of damage output? kinda ridiculous.

Seems to nail it on the head.

They hit half as much as HBs, so are half the cost, if AP-1, this makes sense.

AP0 really kills it. Or they need to be 2-3 points.

One could argue that Dakka Dakka Dakka makes up for that... But that's really only the equivalent of RR1s to-hit, which Marines can get in spades.

Though having played against Imperial Fists a lot I can assure you GW overvalues Dakka Dakka. We still have to roll to hit for the additional shot where other factions have the extra hit automatically connect. Hell there are a few ways to have the 6s explode twice for some factions, with modifiers. It kinda stings we're so limited. Hopefully the next edition brings everyone onto a slightly more level playing field once more.

cody.d. wrote:
Though having played against Imperial Fists a lot I can assure you GW overvalues Dakka Dakka. We still have to roll to hit for the additional shot where other factions have the extra hit automatically connect. Hell there are a few ways to have the 6s explode twice for some factions, with modifiers. It kinda stings we're so limited. Hopefully the next edition brings everyone onto a slightly more level playing field once more.

I mean Orks are in a good spot regardless. We can play at the top tables.

I can work around mediocre big shootas. least we have an option to make them AP-1 now.

 Grimskul wrote:
Now that people have had some time to try out the new SoTB rules, has there been a consensus on which kustom jobs are worth getting for the buggies? I know the the Souped Up Speshul, Nitro Squigs and Sizzly Rivets are more on the "no" column for competitive games, but how about Korkscrew or the Gyroscopic Whirlygig? I feel like the latter has character assassinating potential, as well as late game grabbing opportunities, and Korkscrew could give some much needed punch to finish off a weakened unit or vehicle. Gork's Roar seems like a good buff as well if you deign to take a Wartrike, since it gives him near guaranteed screen clearing capabilities. I'm currently making a Deffskull Brigade list and I'm figuring out whether or not I should take both the Korkscrew and Gyroscopic Kustom Jobs but that means I have a leftover spot in my FA slot that I think would be better filled if there was only one or the other.

Imho the top 5 changes of SoTB are
Deffskulls psychic power
Da biggest boss
Eadbutt on bombers
Whirlygig on shockjump
Slug gubbin on gorkanaut

The next 5 are a bit harder
Grot detachment
Da boomer (if periscope works)
Cheap kff big Mek (likely some misprint in there)
Blood axe psychic power- (it’s great power on a bad clan)
Maybe boomboys subclan.

if you add in DDD then you have to add in rerolls, which makes it even worse.

gungo wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Now that people have had some time to try out the new SoTB rules, has there been a consensus on which kustom jobs are worth getting for the buggies? I know the the Souped Up Speshul, Nitro Squigs and Sizzly Rivets are more on the "no" column for competitive games, but how about Korkscrew or the Gyroscopic Whirlygig? I feel like the latter has character assassinating potential, as well as late game grabbing opportunities, and Korkscrew could give some much needed punch to finish off a weakened unit or vehicle. Gork's Roar seems like a good buff as well if you deign to take a Wartrike, since it gives him near guaranteed screen clearing capabilities. I'm currently making a Deffskull Brigade list and I'm figuring out whether or not I should take both the Korkscrew and Gyroscopic Kustom Jobs but that means I have a leftover spot in my FA slot that I think would be better filled if there was only one or the other.

Imho the top 5 changes of SoTB are
Deffskulls psychic power
Da biggest boss
Eadbutt on bombers
Whirlygig on shockjump
Slug gubbin on gorkanaut

The next 5 are a bit harder
Grot detachment
Da boomer (if periscope works)
Cheap kff big Mek (likely some misprint in there)
Blood axe psychic power- (it’s great power on a bad clan)
Maybe boomboys subclan.

Thanks! Good to note down for my list. Personally, I've found that grot subkultur detachment hasn't made that big of an impact for me in most of my games. The reroll ones is a nice but often not a key part of any game since they usually don't live long enough to reroll that many times and smasha gunz don't have a consistent rate of fire to utilize it fully. I feel like Da Boomer combined with Boomboyz is ideal, that or Evil Sunz with Visions in the Smoke for full rerolls. Fingers crossed though that the KFF Big Mek keeps his invuln. in CC, even if its Klan racist. Given how killy everything has gotten, that boost makes going against guys like Genestealers a lot easier for our boyz.

I don’t think grot detachment is a massive gain but considering Mek gun spam was already competitive it only makes them better plus the 6++ gives those Mek guns a bit more resilience.
I guess my point is smasha guns are already one of our best choices.

And of course this is only my opinion some might think the new freebooter strat is better. I just think it’s to expensive at 2cp to make a massive impact. I also think shiny gubbins on Morkanaut is nice but +1 bs isn’t massively changing the Morkanaut.

I agree there is probably some really nice list for boomboys utilizing da boomer, and meka dread, tankbustas but honestly rokkit profiles are already decent what orks needed was rerolling to hit for better accuracy. Which is why in most cases I think deffskulls are still a bit better on small units. There are a couple subkultures that almost sound like they could be good like stormboy spam flyboys... yes please 5+ save fast boys with -1 to hit in combat..or hunta kommandos... yes please 4+ 5++ +1 wound/+1 ap deepstriking boys but in practice i don’t think either of those subkultures elevates those units as competitive. Subkultures would have been great if they were an addon to a clan tactic even if it cost 1cp like vigilus defiant.

gungo wrote:
I don’t think grot detachment is a massive gain but considering Mek gun spam was already competitive it only makes them better plus the 6++ gives those Mek guns a bit more resilience.
I guess my point is smasha guns are already one of our best choices.

And of course this is only my opinion some might think the new freebooter strat is better. I just think it’s to expensive at 2cp to make a massive impact. I also think shiny gubbins on Morkanaut is nice but +1 bs isn’t massively changing the Morkanaut.

I agree there is probably some really nice list for boomboys utilizing da boomer, and meka dread, tankbustas but honestly rokkit profiles are already decent what orks needed was rerolling to hit for better accuracy. Which is why in most cases I think deffskulls are still a bit better on small units. There are a couple subkultures that almost sound like they could be good like stormboy spam flyboys... yes please 5+ save fast boys with -1 to hit in combat..or hunta kommandos... yes please 4+ 5++ +1 wound/+1 ap deepstriking boys but in practice i don’t think either of those subkultures elevates those units as competitive. Subkultures would have been great if they were an addon to a clan tactic even if it cost 1cp like vigilus defiant.

Just jumping in with my thoughts.

Flash Gitz are one of my favourite units so there may be some bias incoming:
I've been using Flash Gitz for better or worst since the start of 8th, prior to CA19 and Saga of the Beast they've always been a bit short of competitive. I agree with you that the Flash Gitz strat is a bit expensive but I think it's the final push they need to see usage. I think I've probably stated this already in this thread but you're not expecting to spend 2CP a turn on them, you're looking at most likely 2CP in the first turn if you go first and maybe if you go second. If they're in your list you're probably ditching lootas or tankbustas to fit them in, each which would at least be consuming 2CP a turn.
I also think that once you can work with the limited range of Flash Gitz, either through da jump, trukks, or new stratagem, they can offer a lot of value and flexibility that lootas or tankbustas don't have.


RE: Subkulturs, the only ones I've actively considered are Grot Mobs and Tin 'Eads and that's because they give a huge boon to Mek Gunz and Kans which don't get access to the other kulturs. The reality is we have access to some really good clan kulturs in the Codex that had access to some good stratagems. Now the clans have access to good psychic spells. So whenever you want to run a non-gretchin unit in a Subkultur you have to weigh it against all that. I think stacking Kulturs and Subkulturs would lead to some OP stuff. Evil sunz + tin 'eads comes to mind. If there was a way to pick a clan and replace the kultur with a subkultur then I would be happy with that.

I’ve been trying to make kans work.... even with grot detachment. No matter what I do their is just points better spent elsewhere. Kans tend to be a mix unit not great at shooting and not great at melee. It’s like they are competing now with mega jobs who are much better at melee...

Which leads me to tin Eads and evil suns... if they were able to combine (for an additional cp).
Evil suns and mega nobs are already played a lot and it’s a nice unit but isn’t competitive yet.... plus 1 to hit using tin eads isn’t drastically improving mega nobs. (3+ to 2+ ws) At least not much more then people were already trying w banner nob.
Mega nobs I agree would be very competitive with that setup but hardly OP compared to other terminator type units. They are still slow unless you rely on battlewagons or teleports. 2+ saves are getting hurt this meta with so many high volume AP -1 or 2 this editions. Im not saying mega nobs are bad I think they are good right now and they definitely would be competitive I just don’t see the above combo being better then what other armies can produce or deal with.

Regarding freebooters they are competitive already I agree. And better then tabkbustas or lootas if you go that route. It just takes an all in approach where you pull your Mek guns instead of using grots subkulture to trigger the bonus for your freebooters. And the 2cp while expensive should be usable at least once most games...still don’t think it will make a massive difference. We can’t use strats on units embarked in a battle wagon or ignore movement penalties. So the new strat basically lets you not move and not suffer to hit penalties like most freebooters were doing turn 1 or 2. I’m not really seeing that as a major bonus. I kinda wanted to move my flashgitz closer anyway. I suppose I can keep them by my Mek guns turn 1. Use 2cp wait till a Mek gun dies and then use loot it for another cp. and start moving my freebooters turn 2. Which would make them more survivable. I’m just spit balling here. I do think free boosters are good. I just don’t think it’s because of speshul shells for 2cp.

 Quackzo wrote:
I've been watching the AoW 40k streams recently and Marky Perry has been running Kans, Deffkoptas, and Nob Bikers in lists all as evil sunz speed freaks. It's interesting to see in action, he's effectively using the Speed Freeks detachment to get those obscene movements across the board and uses wartrikes to enable the advance and charge. Kans are a bit more passive in function but are basically a big meaty screen. He's been testing it against Nick Nanavati and Richard Siegler with some success, so there's definitely merit to these ideas.

Yeah I see what he did in that game.

He ended up paying around what you'd pay for 12 regular bikes w/ a Kill saw, but instead had 6 Big Choppa Nob Bikers and 2 normal ones (I dunno why he wouldn't just drop a Kan to upgrade them, his Kans did not pull their weight except as screens). Definitely will hit a good deal harder.

On paper I can see the appeal, as Big Choppa nobs just absolutely crush a lot of gak they can charge, especially if you buff them with Warpath. I dunno why you wouldn't just Tellyporta regular Evil Suns nobs instead though, as you literally save 50% of the points. With the right army setup, you can probably drop them turn 3 so screens are cleared, and exchanging 2 CP for upwards of (in this case) 148 points is really worth it.

I do think Kult of Speed really needs to see more play. Being able to move ~30" then charge after is just so good.

I've been toying with the idea of a full squad of nob warbikes with big choppas. Buffed with "Full speed ladz" (the +1S strat) and warpath they might actually be pretty decent. Getting a bunch of attacks with S8 AP-1 and D2 seems like a overall pretty good profile, coupled with all the usual upsides bikes have.

I still think they'd be 5 or 8 points too expensive per model but there might be some play there..

PiñaColada wrote:
I've been toying with the idea of a full squad of nob warbikes with big choppas. Buffed with "Full speed ladz" (the +1S strat) and warpath they might actually be pretty decent. Getting a bunch of attacks with S8 AP-1 and D2 seems like a overall pretty good profile, coupled with all the usual upsides bikes have.

I still think they'd be 5 or 8 points too expensive per model but there might be some play there..

I think you'd have to bank on there being good enough terrain in your deployment zone to block LoS on them T1 to make sure they don't get alpha struck, because even with a KFF bubble protection, they won't be hard to shoot off the board if you don't manage to get first turn.

Honestly, you can set them up to have an 80% chance of a charge 45" if you're willing to pay 1 more CP.

(Evil suns + new Kustom Job + Kult of Speed = 36" move, 80% chance to roll an 8). This drops to like 40" if you go non ES, which is still really, really good.

It's a chunk of CP ((1) Kult of Speed, (2) Advance your full move again, (1) Kustom Job), but I think if you can't have at least 1 LOS blocking piece of terrain somewhere in your board edge, you should ask for more terrain on the table.

The biggest issue I see is still the fact that things like TFCs can shut them down for basically free. But I wonder if dropping ~290-300 points for Nob Bikers vs ~290 points of Warbikers isn't a terrible trade off, given that Warbikers seem to do okay. They actually have similar wound counts, it probably just depends how much 3 Damage weapon they are packing vs 2 Damage.

Yeah, there are obvious drawbacks with putting that many points into a unit that's not super durable and vulnerable to TFCs as you both noted.

But you do get that fast unit that, unlike normal warbikers, actually hits really hard (when buffed). 36 attacks at S8 AP-1 D2 (plus another 9 S6 AP0 D1) attacks is realistically scary for just about anything in the game. The difference in S7 or S8 is so big (both in regards to T4 and T7/8) that the strat alone is dang near a gamechanger in regards to unit viability IMO.

I already play ES so the speed you get is insane and I've certainly toyed with adding squig tyres as well (but that might be overspending). Also, will the KFF work in CC post-errata? Then a wazbom could possibly protect them in CC if you're facing a real threat..

In normal times I'd try it all out and report back but who knows when games are back to being a normal occurance?

PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah, there are obvious drawbacks with putting that many points into a unit that's not super durable and vulnerable to TFCs as you both noted.

But you do get that fast unit that, unlike normal warbikers, actually hits really hard (when buffed). 36 attacks at S8 AP-1 D2 (plus another 9 S6 AP0 D1) attacks is realistically scary for just about anything in the game. The difference in S7 or S8 is so big (both in regards to T4 and T7/8) that the strat alone is dang near a gamechanger in regards to unit viability IMO.

I already play ES so the speed you get is insane and I've certainly toyed with adding squig tyres as well (but that might be overspending). Also, will the KFF work in CC post-errata? Then a wazbom could possibly protect them in CC if you're facing a real threat..

In normal times I'd try it all out and report back but who knows when games are back to being a normal occurance?

Well, a unit of 8 Nob Bikers with all Big Choppa, choppa is 304 points. Up to 24 Str 7 (8 with the 1 CP strat) Big Choppa attacks, and 8 str 5 (6) choppa attacks. Do warpath if you can somehow keep 1 within 18 of your Weirdboy, and this becomes 32 attacks. 32 Big choppa attacks I believe wipes out an intercessor squad, and you can easily wrap your nob bikers again into a new unit with the 2d6" consolidation strat. In addition, it'll be easier to use the 48 Dakkajet shots because you might be a very short charge away from your enemy, including allowing them to punch a hole through screens.

But the flip side to this is couldn't I just take 2 Nob squads instead and Tellyporta them? You can get 16 Nobs instead. Tellyporta for 4 CP (about the same as the Kult of speed stuff), and you now have 2 units to deploy and make the charge, as long as you can clear screens out.

Advantage of Nobs: More stuff, way more attacks, fills elite slots out for stuff like a brigade, can ignore TFCs.
Advantage of Nob Bikers: Gets around anti deep strike tech, can easily wrap with the 2d6" consolidation strat, able to get to Str 8 with stratagem.

I've had some success with warbikers already, I may give the Nob Bikers a shot as a count as with my friends. I was dismissive of them initially, but maybe if you lean into them a bit it's actually not too bad.

Compared to tellyporting units, kult of speed (nob) bikers have the huge advantage of almost no chance to fail their charge and being able to do it turn 1, rather than T2.

 Jidmah wrote:
Compared to tellyporting units, kult of speed (nob) bikers have the huge advantage of almost no chance to fail their charge and being able to do it turn 1, rather than T2.

True. You’ve played bikes tons, did you ever do nob bikers with the point reduction?

On second glance, I’m not even sure TFCs fully gimp bikers anymore if you do evil suns and the new kustom job.

You’d go down to an 18” move ( move twice ), plus an 80% to get a 5” charge, for a threat range of 23”. Not as great obviously, but that’s still not necessarily stopping them.

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Compared to tellyporting units, kult of speed (nob) bikers have the huge advantage of almost no chance to fail their charge and being able to do it turn 1, rather than T2.

True. You’ve played bikes tons, did you ever do nob bikers with the point reduction?

Not since their last reduction, but before. My issue with them was never the point cost, but that they simply don't hit hard enough to warrant spending extra points over regular warbikers. Almost every time I played them, their shooting and ability to move fast and tag stuff was more important than their melee output - in one game they bounced off a Sororitas Repressor and then later off a rhino, that's not what I expect from a 300+ points melee unit. They really could have used a stragem like "hit 'em harder" that MANz got.
With no actual advantage over warbikers, the risk of quickly losing them to weapons with flat 3 damage or more is not worth it. The DA helblasters I face regular just plowed through them, as do dreads, daemons with words, helverine/predator autocannons and pretty much every character with a relic weapon.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Compared to tellyporting units, kult of speed (nob) bikers have the huge advantage of almost no chance to fail their charge and being able to do it turn 1, rather than T2.

True. You’ve played bikes tons, did you ever do nob bikers with the point reduction?

Not since their last reduction, but before. My issue with them was never the point cost, but that they simply don't hit hard enough to warrant spending extra points over regular warbikers. Almost every time I played them, their shooting and ability to move fast and tag stuff was more important than their melee output - in one game they bounced off a Sororitas Repressor and then later off a rhino, that's not what I expect from a 300+ points melee unit. They really could have used a stragem like "hit 'em harder" that MANz got.
With no actual advantage over warbikers, the risk of quickly losing them to weapons with flat 3 damage or more is not worth it. The DA helblasters I face regular just plowed through them, as do dreads, daemons with words, helverine/predator autocannons and pretty much every character with a relic weapon.

Yeah fair. 1-2 damage weapons would edge for the Nob Bikers, as they have roughly the same number of wounds (25 vs 24 for the 12 and 8 mob), but yeah, they'd be crushed even harder vs flat 3.

Shame snakebites are so terrible, a FNP on this unit might go a long way.

The prevalence of D3 weapons in your local meta really makes or breaks the argument for nob warbiker durability. My meta has very few of those weapons, but they might see an upswing with armoured IG getting some love in PA (hammer of sundrance and full payload etc).

I think normal bikes or normal nobz are probably both better options than the big boys on bikes but I'm fairly certain we've all tried that to varying degrees of success already. Nob bikers hit hard enough that I'm willing to experiment a few games with the unit, even if I ultimately don't believe I can really make them work on anything better than a casual level. 9 of them with big choppas is 342 points ATM, at around 275 we would really be talking I think.

just a quick question... dont wanna open a new thread

if competitive streak if obtained mid shooting does the unit trigerring it, get the +1 right away?

example: dread has a megablasta and a flamer. Dread shoots flamer at unit A and blasta at unit B, A gets destoyed by the flamer. does the blasta now hit on 4's?

Correct, attacks are solved one after the other. Keep in mind that you need to announce all your weapons before shooting any of them.

No it doesn’t get competitive streak.

If unit A kills an enemy unit, every other friendly FB unit within 24” gets the bonus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m just building a Wartrike ( finally ).

Is the relic worth it on them if I’m doing cult of speed? (5++, T7). I’m wondering if I could get away with just making it a death skull for a 6++. I wish we could take a 3rd relic for 1 CP instead of two... I dunno if I’d leave my warboss at home.

If it gets Brutal but cunning it also on paper doesn’t look too bad vs Da Killa Klaw.

gungo wrote:
Cost is an issue but trukks don’t have a clear purpose right now.

I like using truckgrots.
They've won me games.