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Personally I’ll just use it for games with people I know. I see it as bad form otherwise, for theSe reasons.

Tournament scene is dead ATM in Paris region, and not only because of corona.

tneva82 wrote:
If I wanted I could do one that looks same as commonly used that gives me bit less 2's and 3's and more 4's and 5's instead twisting odds in my favour.

No you can't. Have a look at the app I linked.
It's less effort to create loaded dice by casting the plastic yourself or printing and binding a new codex with altered content than to create an app with the same look&feel and change its functionality.

This is a huge part of why I use this specific app. It is rather well known and the costs to alter it immensely outweighs the gain.

Trying to think of the best version of the tin head list. The idea of krumping Killa Kans is too sweet to not play around with. On paper too. KK w/ Big Shoota are offensively better than normal MANz, and have more wounds and toughness to boot.

Wonder if 1 fast squad and 2 slow squads might be fine.

What do you folks think of this?

 Emicrania wrote:

shogun wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Just tried a Pampreen variation I wrote some pages ago with Ghaz in it.

I played Vs a ETC winner with a possessed bomb.

He conceded T2.

That list is a tournament winner list.

I think the damage output is a bit low to make that claim. For obvious reasons the Ork succes stories always rely on 3 things:

1. having first turn,
2. Facing a bad armylist or a good one that struggles against this kind of ork list,
3. And for some reason everybody is fighting in close combat at turn 2 because the enemy is stupid to deploy at the frontline or don't know how to bubble wrap.

It looks like a fun list but with average results, I think.

Flashgitz shoot 30 S6 ap2 D2 reroll 1s and 2 free rerolls. They hit on 4s , they can hit on 3s once you pop a unit, which is why Smashaguns and the DJ is there. You get 5+3 MW on average per bomber Vs infantry, that is 2 dead centurions or 4 PEQ. 7d3 shots with the Smashaguns, the SSAG is just the SSAG, the Gunwagon shoot 4D6 S8 -2 D2.
I played about 150 games with freebooterz last year with 3 win at minor RTT and 2 4th placing at GT's. One during IH dominance. From my experience, the shooting is more than enough in order to blast away the real treaths. You don't need to table your opponent to win.
When you play Orks, you WANT to be wrapped. We have the only spell in the game that makes you redeploy, without being a fall back, nothing can stop that. The Flashgitz in the back they make you cast the spell on a 6+. With a reroll that is about 80% chance to make it. If not, that is why Ghaz is there.
I play regularly Vs probably the best BA player out here, that play cagey all the time and doesn't come out to meet you before T4. The planes destroy any possibility to hide and be safe. Just take a flyer base at home, measure 6" and see what footprint that thing cover. Remeber that you can land on top of the ruins and count on being outside 1".
As I said, RG and tau are gonna counter the list, dunno if anything else can. The list is a real thing.

yeah, basically all this. I prefer getting better at screening rather than having counter assault cause assault is so finnicky on TTS. But so far I've been wailing on people with this list.

A good tau army played moderately competently is completely unbeatable by this kind of army. Just the reality of drones. Even adjusting by taking lootas instead of gitz. Lootas only kill 12 freaking drones. meaning if they have 40 drones they can eat basically 3 turns of loota fire. You cannot take 3 turns of tau fire in response, besides they control the board.

Maybe this is a case where my aversion to assault could be hindering me as maybe Gaz could have an impact on the game where more shooting doesn't.


Also as a follow up, some of the new maps are just straight bonkers LOS blocking so I'll probably have to stop playing the army in its current form. I get people want LOS blocking but hiding 12 smasha guns and a Gorkanaught from LOS from anywhere within 8 inches of my deployment zone is a bit much IMO. The new PTT and WTC maps make any range over 24 inches unlikely to be useful, especially if it's on a slower platform.

Something just occurred to me regarding Ghaz's new rules and the fact that he doesn't affect himself. Remember when his cybernetic skull gave him a headbutt rule? It was something like a separate attack or a few bonus attacks more than usual. Where did that fun little piece of fluff go?

cody.d. wrote:
Something just occurred to me regarding Ghaz's new rules and the fact that he doesn't affect himself. Remember when his cybernetic skull gave him a headbutt rule? It was something like a separate attack or a few bonus attacks more than usual. Where did that fun little piece of fluff go?

Probably into his suit to protect his fragile head which was just cut off..

Question: what defines 'moving over a unit' when it comes to dropping bombs from planes? You move the plane forward and if the front of the nose is directly above the enemy unit then it is bombs away?

As Steven pointed out in the art of war podcast, the rules for bombing are so unclear ATM that you should agree with your opponent beforehand on how it works. But basically you move the base up to 90° and anything that get under the base can be bombed. Atm you can also bomb in close combat....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vercingatorix wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

shogun wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
Just tried a Pampreen variation I wrote some pages ago with Ghaz in it.

I played Vs a ETC winner with a possessed bomb.

He conceded T2.

That list is a tournament winner list.

I think the damage output is a bit low to make that claim. For obvious reasons the Ork succes stories always rely on 3 things:

1. having first turn,
2. Facing a bad armylist or a good one that struggles against this kind of ork list,
3. And for some reason everybody is fighting in close combat at turn 2 because the enemy is stupid to deploy at the frontline or don't know how to bubble wrap.

It looks like a fun list but with average results, I think.

Flashgitz shoot 30 S6 ap2 D2 reroll 1s and 2 free rerolls. They hit on 4s , they can hit on 3s once you pop a unit, which is why Smashaguns and the DJ is there. You get 5+3 MW on average per bomber Vs infantry, that is 2 dead centurions or 4 PEQ. 7d3 shots with the Smashaguns, the SSAG is just the SSAG, the Gunwagon shoot 4D6 S8 -2 D2.
I played about 150 games with freebooterz last year with 3 win at minor RTT and 2 4th placing at GT's. One during IH dominance. From my experience, the shooting is more than enough in order to blast away the real treaths. You don't need to table your opponent to win.
When you play Orks, you WANT to be wrapped. We have the only spell in the game that makes you redeploy, without being a fall back, nothing can stop that. The Flashgitz in the back they make you cast the spell on a 6+. With a reroll that is about 80% chance to make it. If not, that is why Ghaz is there.
I play regularly Vs probably the best BA player out here, that play cagey all the time and doesn't come out to meet you before T4. The planes destroy any possibility to hide and be safe. Just take a flyer base at home, measure 6" and see what footprint that thing cover. Remeber that you can land on top of the ruins and count on being outside 1".
As I said, RG and tau are gonna counter the list, dunno if anything else can. The list is a real thing.

yeah, basically all this. I prefer getting better at screening rather than having counter assault cause assault is so finnicky on TTS. But so far I've been wailing on people with this list.

A good tau army played moderately competently is completely unbeatable by this kind of army. Just the reality of drones. Even adjusting by taking lootas instead of gitz. Lootas only kill 12 freaking drones. meaning if they have 40 drones they can eat basically 3 turns of loota fire. You cannot take 3 turns of tau fire in response, besides they control the board.

Maybe this is a case where my aversion to assault could be hindering me as maybe Gaz could have an impact on the game where more shooting doesn't.


Also as a follow up, some of the new maps are just straight bonkers LOS blocking so I'll probably have to stop playing the army in its current form. I get people want LOS blocking but hiding 12 smasha guns and a Gorkanaught from LOS from anywhere within 8 inches of my deployment zone is a bit much IMO. The new PTT and WTC maps make any range over 24 inches unlikely to be useful, especially if it's on a slower platform.

Yeah I saw the maps, that is why I tested Ghaz. I believe taking off 6 gunz and having him instead of the warboss is a good choice. It gives us a lot of room and his 6" aura makes basically all the Grots units benefit from breaking heads. Also he's a great counter punch Vs RG/BA and SW that want to get in your lines and keep the pressure up. He also oneshot centurions, which is great. Also the gunwagon can be freebooterz, which helps with the synergy if the list and we can have 125 Grots on the field.
I dunno if any new rules about terrain or maps are gonna be mainstream any time soon, but until than, this list is the real deal .

So I know its been a lockdown for most. Any word on ideal Ghaz tactics? I know he may never be worth it fully, but I want to get the most out of him.

Also saw the open play datasheets. Great, more Goff love. Still no Evil Sunz characters in our codex (and a garbage FW one), but okay. More goff.

Keramory wrote:
So I know its been a lockdown for most. Any word on ideal Ghaz tactics? I know he may never be worth it fully, but I want to get the most out of him.

Also saw the open play datasheets. Great, more Goff love. Still no Evil Sunz characters in our codex (and a garbage FW one), but okay. More goff.

Emi seems to have successfully used him in the above ITC list which is a modded Steven Pampreen list.

The bro hammer people have also claimed: “Take a metric ton of Goff boys”.

Not sure much else has been said otherwise. I wonder if he would be good in a kan / mega armour spam list too.

The old rule of thumb was "30 boys per 500 pts of the game", which would be 120 at 2000 which is, I dare say, a matric ton of boys.

INcidently, when facing spammed Tau drones?

The two-drone units need to eat three wound son average to get past the FNP on a 5+++.

To get 3 wounds past their 4+ save, you need to roll 6 wounds.

With a Str 4 Boy, you need to have 12 hits. to roll 6 wounds.

To get 12 hits on a 3+, you need to make 18 attacks.

SO, you need 6 boys to 2 man unit charged, or 4 boys if you have +1 or +2 attacks, in order to inflict efficient damage. Keep an eye on that bit as you can get a little cheeky and try 15 attacks per unit but you'll often fall just a bit short of pushing through.

18 swings per 2 drone unit. Keep that number in your head and you can find a way through the walls.

I just don’t see how that Goff spam list works better over the evil suns version. I’d have to see it piloted against a real list.

The consistency of charges just seems stupid to give up.

Going from failing 2 out of every 5 games versus 1 out of every 5 games. Maybe you could take 1 squad of ES boys for turn 1?

I tested a 20 MANz list Vs BA with triple bomber,Flashgitz and Smashaguns and I ate a can of "whoops" both times. I lost both unit in Vs 2 unit of SG. Now mind you, it was the first time I tried the list, but I feel like that you need to invest an enormous amount of points in goffs to make it work with average results. Orks are a shooty army in this edition and I have hard time seeing anything changing that .

 Emicrania wrote:
I tested a 20 MANz list Vs BA with triple bomber,Flashgitz and Smashaguns and I ate a can of "whoops" both times. I lost both unit in Vs 2 unit of SG. Now mind you, it was the first time I tried the list, but I feel like that you need to invest an enormous amount of points in goffs to make it work with average results. Orks are a shooty army in this edition and I have hard time seeing anything changing that .

Man I do love Mega Nob models. This was a Goff MANz list?

They really need to get cheaper, though. I’d love they could play like aggressors, or finally get properly valued. 35 PPM is just too much. Aggressors get 19 shots on average if they shoot twice, have 1 more attack, and hit most of those shots for 2 more points :/

Man i love them so much... But they just don't perform as I wish they would. Boosting them to T5 would be enough for me.
I played ES and it was a mistake, IMHO

tulun wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
I tested a 20 MANz list Vs BA with triple bomber,Flashgitz and Smashaguns and I ate a can of "whoops" both times. I lost both unit in Vs 2 unit of SG. Now mind you, it was the first time I tried the list, but I feel like that you need to invest an enormous amount of points in goffs to make it work with average results. Orks are a shooty army in this edition and I have hard time seeing anything changing that .

Man I do love Mega Nob models. This was a Goff MANz list?

They really need to get cheaper, though. I’d love they could play like aggressors, or finally get properly valued. 35 PPM is just too much. Aggressors get 19 shots on average if they shoot twice, have 1 more attack, and hit most of those shots for 2 more points :/

Yeah, they're on the cusp of being right there on the edge of competitive. Literally their main draw is that they're a headache to get off an objective once they're on it, especially if there's cover they can use. If they get cheap enough, OR they get tougher/killier, it would push them to be used more often. The new tin 'eads and MANZ stratagem definitely help, but having them baseline either do more damage with their PK/Killsaws, or have that defensive boost from being T5 would be great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Emicrania wrote:
Man i love them so much... But they just don't perform as I wish they would. Boosting them to T5 would be enough for me.
I played ES and it was a mistake, IMHO

What part of making them ES was wrong? I figured the extra inch for both movement and charging would make a decisive difference. The main draw of taking them as Goffs is taking advantage of Ghaz's reroll 1's to hit aura and the exploding 6's, which admittedly makes them more killy, but it seems getting them into combat seems the main focus.

As you said they are the verge of being great, something is missing. That something is that they are terminator slow with one W more abd boyz T. Specifically on that match up Vs BA and any other similar aggressive lists, is that they will push you in your deployment zone and having almost 200 bodies on the board, means that extra speed is not gonna make a difference. You are swamped in your deployment and you can just counter charge, which is never a good things, since you want to be the one dictating the initiative . Jumping 9/10 MANz and hoping to get the charge in, IMHO, is never a good strategy, since you risk having 350 points stranded somewhere, risking to get shot to bits. I get they shouldnt be Aggressor strong, since our tactical flexibility to jump around and stuff, but 35 points for 3A hitting on 4s is not that big of a deal in the space marines world.
They have to be more resilient for that price and untill they FAQ the KFF I can't see them doing much, atm

 Emicrania wrote:
I get they shouldnt be Aggressor strong, since our tactical flexibility to jump around and stuff, but 35 points for 3A hitting on 4s is not that big of a deal in the space marines world.
They have to be more resilient for that price and untill they FAQ the KFF I can't see them doing much, atm

I would agree with "they shouldn't be Aggressor strong" if Ravenguard didn't exist. Those chonky, slow boys seem borderline stupid in cost once they get cheap infiltration. Even Ultramarine Aggressors seem crazy fun to play as you can move them and shoot twice.

You're not taking KFFs right now until the FAQ, right? Why don't you just pay the extra 20 or ignore the melee invul for now? Sure your opponent won't care if you take a penalty if you wanna field them like a normal KFF in a TTS game.

My experience has been similar regarding Jumping MANz, though. 350 points is just crazy to throw at the enemy if you aren't certain it'll collapse their line / kill something really important. I've done that, had them not do as well as I thought because of Eldar negative hit fuckery, then promptly die on the spot from the counter charge and smite.

I wonder if you just accept they aren't a "Da Jump -> charge" style unit, that ES is simply the less interesting choice. As objective campers they seem amazing, and you can easily get them into position with Da Jump or slogging them into the middle.

DS gives you obsec which can be a HUGE bonus, as a single little grot strung up can't take the objective off of you now. Bad Moons new psychic power can give you a 1+ armour save. Tin Heads are much, much more efficient per model. 6 MANz + bonebreaker is ~370 points, and those 6 MANz hit 12 times vs 15 for a full 10 man ES squad. I feel like the bonebreaker + MANz gives you more options generally too, as you can always tellyporta -> ramming speed for the deep strike strat, a Forktress Breaker can easily start on the board, and 6 MANz with a 3+ to hit is not that different from 10 MANz with a 4+ to hit. Just gotta justify Tin Heads as a detachment.

I’m secretly hoping the KFF change is for all versions and all of a sudden a big Mek in mega armor w kff and the kleverest boss becomes a beast character.

The wazbom blastjet becomes even better
And Meka dread and Morkanaut becomes a bit better Point efficiency wise.

Also where is a good place to order models online with a discount that actually has an inventory In the US ... minature market seems to be running dry on a lot of models.

i'd be quite shocked if it changed them all. Theres quite a few examples of same exact rule, different wording. Explodes! is a good example.

As weird as it would be for the KFF to become Klan-racist all of a sudden, I feel like it would definitely be worth the trade off to have a KFF that works in CC across the board. Frankly, I always felt that it should have given an invuln. in CC anyways to begin with. It always seemed weird that stuff like Azrael's Lion Helm and other things like the Dark Apostle's prayer gave it for both CC and shooting, but the KFF was very specifically not.

That's still a very strange way to update such a central component of ork strategy, especially since it discourages the use of specialist mobs.

tulun wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
I get they shouldnt be Aggressor strong, since our tactical flexibility to jump around and stuff, but 35 points for 3A hitting on 4s is not that big of a deal in the space marines world.
They have to be more resilient for that price and untill they FAQ the KFF I can't see them doing much, atm

I would agree with "they shouldn't be Aggressor strong" if Ravenguard didn't exist. Those chonky, slow boys seem borderline stupid in cost once they get cheap infiltration. Even Ultramarine Aggressors seem crazy fun to play as you can move them and shoot twice.

You're not taking KFFs right now until the FAQ, right? Why don't you just pay the extra 20 or ignore the melee invul for now? Sure your opponent won't care if you take a penalty if you wanna field them like a normal KFF in a TTS game.

My experience has been similar regarding Jumping MANz, though. 350 points is just crazy to throw at the enemy if you aren't certain it'll collapse their line / kill something really important. I've done that, had them not do as well as I thought because of Eldar negative hit fuckery, then promptly die on the spot from the counter charge and smite.

I wonder if you just accept they aren't a "Da Jump -> charge" style unit, that ES is simply the less interesting choice. As objective campers they seem amazing, and you can easily get them into position with Da Jump or slogging them into the middle.

DS gives you obsec which can be a HUGE bonus, as a single little grot strung up can't take the objective off of you now. Bad Moons new psychic power can give you a 1+ armour save. Tin Heads are much, much more efficient per model. 6 MANz + bonebreaker is ~370 points, and those 6 MANz hit 12 times vs 15 for a full 10 man ES squad. I feel like the bonebreaker + MANz gives you more options generally too, as you can always tellyporta -> ramming speed for the deep strike strat, a Forktress Breaker can easily start on the board, and 6 MANz with a 3+ to hit is not that different from 10 MANz with a 4+ to hit. Just gotta justify Tin Heads as a detachment.

I usually play stuff that doesn't need a FAQ, so I don't waste weeks on a tactic that might not v.be viable next week. Tin heads is great, but at this point I would go with a all in 1000 points of 20 MANz and Ghaz + Grots and the rest just shooting

I won two games friday evening and sunday against Tau friday and Eldar CW sunday.

Against Tau (FE, and a pretty decent pkayer, though like me out of practice because of covid) I won the roll and went first, which was fortunate as he kept half his army in reserve, 9 vet crisis suits and 2 commanders and a squad of 7 shield drones).

My list revolved around two gorkanauts with the 2 shooty kkustom jobs + 2 burna bommers, which I hoped would be good for clearing shield drones. Turns out Gorkas are good enough, but shield drones are so tanky that you don't get to kill that many.
But with the help of the burnas suiciding into the drones (those keeping out of sight, and i was lucky he missed nearly all his feel no pain rolls against my MW) managed to kill most of the drone and downed his ion relic riptide turn 2 (turn 1 he failed to kill anything with it). I had 8 smashas and 3 SAG (inc the SSAG, though it was bad moon, same as the gorks) so The Riptide was most def going to die when it was down to 3 shield drones.
Anyway burnas and gorkanauts are a very good way to clear shield drones, and smashas + SAGs take the rest down fairly easy. I guess Lootas with a metric ton of grots are still the best tool, but Lootas dont handle well new line of sight blocking terrain heavy tables.
Saga makes me feel like we gained a lot of tools to deal with Tau, but if tau goes first... Perhaps we still get wrecked. I think that game would have been twice as difficult if he had gone first.

I'll debrief later on the game CW, but it was not a very comp game (I played without any SAG on purpose), so it may not be very relevant for those who wish to read feedback on comp games.

I've been trying to not use a SAG, nobody in my area plays hyper competitive and that thing tends to win games on its own since people dont know how to deal with it without going through my entire army first.
Especially after one game where i faced primaris marines with 4 grav vehicles of varied types. T1, i go first, killed the 2 shooty ones. T2, i killed the third shooty one and managed to Mortal Wound to death the 4++ transport. Unbelievably lucky yes but also he had absolutely no counter to it. Game was over by that point as my boyz were pounding his primaris already too.
Board had a fair bit of LoS blocking but not enough where i couldnt just...move the SSAG and be able to hit them anyway via Moar Dakka. Transport tried to go for an objective which cause it to become visible.

Its randomness keeps it in check sometimes but other times...good god it kills half an army itself lol. I kinda wish it kept its Snake Eyes cause self damage, it has no drastic drawback other than just its strength was piss this time. Dont even joke about bringing back the massive AoE of "yup my army is gone" though lol

Not to mention i've been messing with Grot Mobz anyway and i really, REALLY want a MegaMek w/ Follow Me Ladz around those grot tanks. Their leadership is abysmal lol.

gungo wrote:
I’m secretly hoping the KFF change is for all versions and all of a sudden a big Mek in mega armor w kff and the kleverest boss becomes a beast character.

I hope not. Mixing clans should be encouraged, as Orks have no soup options.

MA Mek is definitely not a beast in combat, though. 4 PK attacks at str 10, hitting on 3's is... the old warboss we all used to rag on. The fact I can take 2 Big Meks for the same price kills it. If it could take 2 Killsaws and get 5 base attacks I think I might be with ya.

Emicrania wrote:
I usually play stuff that doesn't need a FAQ, so I don't waste weeks on a tactic that might not v.be viable next week. Tin heads is great, but at this point I would go with a all in 1000 points of 20 MANz and Ghaz + Grots and the rest just shooting

Gotcha. Big Goff mob. You are pretty sold on Ghaz eh? Centre of the board would be rough with 20 MANz + Ghaz, especially if a painboy was around.

 Emicrania wrote:
Jumping 9/10 MANz and hoping to get the charge in, IMHO, is never a good strategy, since you risk having 350 points stranded somewhere, risking to get shot to bits. I get they shouldnt be Aggressor strong, since our tactical flexibility to jump around and stuff, but 35 points for 3A hitting on 4s is not that big of a deal in the space marines worl

Once I've won a tourney game having forgotten to deep strike a 350 pt manz squad at all. It was a 1k pt game. But the mere possibility of such squad forced my opponent to go super defensive and he simply got outscored by grots

Also just freshly base coated my Gork. Y’all ever put something in it if you deep strike it?

I believe Ghaz, in the right list, in the current meta, is a valid option. In a shooty list is the counterpunch that we need, since he oneshot centurions and mulch thru a 10 man SG like butter. If he could fight twice, it would be ALMOST too much.

Again, I ve yet to find a good list for the MANz heavy, since at least 2 burna bombers are a must, but maybe having 3*6 might also be a valid option... Now that I think about it....

It's going to be interesting to see if even the threat of an ork airwing will change up the meta. In theory you don't want to bunch up your units or have to many msu single wound units hanging in the over 12 inch bubble that bommers threaten. Do thunderfire cannons count as separate units to their techmarines cause I have a marine mate who runs three every game and it'd be a laugh to nearly kill the lot and plink off the last wound with a lucky big shoota or some such.


Tau castles are going to hate us, units of 2 shield drones will just be cleared out unless the tau player gets damn lucky, characters and riptides can't pass off the wounds as well as there's no hit or wound roll, the only unit I think wouldn't be all that bothered would be MSU intercessors. But even they will lose a guy and a half each time.