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Bonebreaka only having a 4+ save normally is its main downfall. It tends to butcher whatever it slams into, problem is whatever comes up to it after it slammed something just pounds it w/o even trying.
Forktress is probably the only BW kustom job worth using imo. As we've already seen, Da Booma isnt even that great (i blame lack of proper side weapons, as imperial tanks usually tote lascannons and/or heavy bolters x2-3 on top of the big gun)

Also, the flat6 is still only when IT charges, and in my experience (i run bonebreakas alot with just random slugga boyz inside, cheap T8 profile) it almost never gets to charge more than once as people will be dogpiling it to keep it from charging again, if they didnt outright kill it.

i still find it odd imo that 'ard case doesnt give it +1 save. Because it legit is a laughably cheap T8 profile, just doesnt mean much when the only weapons that actually hurt it 100% wipe the save away in the process.

 Emicrania wrote:
I need a rule clarification here.
Ghaz have

Goffs is da Best: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made with melee weapons by models in friendly GOFF ORK units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.

BUT he also have

Grand Warboss: This model can be included in an ORK Detachment without preventing other units from that Detachment from gaining a Clan Kultur. Note, however, that this model does not benefit from any Clan Kultur unless the Clan Kultur selected for that Detachment is the Goffs Clan Kultur.

Does this means he can do as badrukk and FlashGits does or he eat his shorts in another thing?

Does he eat his shorts? what do you mean?

What I would imagine is this:

As the only Goff in a detachment with non-Goffs (or FGs), he does not get exploding 6's. That's the only negative for him being in a non-Goff detachment, otherwise he gets everything else

 Emicrania wrote:
I need a rule clarification here.
Ghaz have

Goffs is da Best: Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made with melee weapons by models in friendly GOFF ORK units whilst their unit is within 6" of this model.

BUT he also have

Grand Warboss: This model can be included in an ORK Detachment without preventing other units from that Detachment from gaining a Clan Kultur. Note, however, that this model does not benefit from any Clan Kultur unless the Clan Kultur selected for that Detachment is the Goffs Clan Kultur.

Does this means he can do as badrukk and FlashGits does or he eat his shorts in another thing?

I'm not sure what you are asking here, but yes he works exactly as Badrukk does.
Keep in mind that GOFF is not the culture, but a keyword and he will always be a GOFF ORK, even if the rest of the detachment is BAD MOONS and benefiting from the "Armed to da Teef" culture.

Theres two sides to the kulture keywords.

The keyword itself (e.g. Goff)
The Kulture associated with the keyword (e.g. the exploding 6s in melee)

The keyword remains, its what defines what kind of ork he is. Anything looking for that keyword (e.g. the new spells, new KFF, breakin' heads aura) will be looking for Goff if it affects him, so he benefits from his reroll 1s in melee regardless as he is always a Goff.
The Kulture is stripped unless the detachment is Goff because the rule that allows him to come in w/o messing things up for everybody else says so. Thus, he does not get exploding 6s in melee, nor does he get whatever that detachment normally has.

Exploding 6s going away to bring him in a non-goff detachment is a bit of a letdown but in the end its not really that big a deal. Biggest issue is you cant have a painboy "Mediqsuig" him unless said painboy is Goff, as that stratagem is klan locked (looking for the Keyword, not the kulture). Really the only things he isnt going to pulverize with his base profile is REALLY big things, 3+ invul on top of good FNP, or numbers. All of which the extra 1-2 hits would help of course, but only the numbers bit is a potential reality for him.

You can always beef up his attacks with Fists of Gork which is nice.

The real question for me is if that Goff Painboy is needed. If people are just bursting him down in 1 turn instead of spreading out damage over 3 turns, then it's pointless. It's not like you really wanna bring Goffs otherwise -- too many other detachments are looking far more interesting (Blood Axes, Grot Mobs, Freebootas, Evil Suns, death skulls,Tin 'Heads...)

imo, havnt actually played with him yet but just observation, if you arent gonna use a painboy to heal him you should just DS him.

If i were facing him and he was footslogging i'd pop a random big gun in his face with each unit until i did 3-4 damage, and then ignore him. Unless he 4++'d everything, he's gonna be nearly dead by the time he sees combat w/o the heals.
And i dont feel bad allocating 1 of my several KMB/Rokkit level weapons at him whenever a unit htat has 1 fires. I wont overkill him at that point and waste damage as once ive done any damage i'd stop doing that this round.

tulun wrote:
You can always beef up his attacks with Fists of Gork which is nice.

The real question for me is if that Goff Painboy is needed. If people are just bursting him down in 1 turn instead of spreading out damage over 3 turns, then it's pointless. It's not like you really wanna bring Goffs otherwise -- too many other detachments are looking far more interesting (Blood Axes, Grot Mobs, Freebootas, Evil Suns, death skulls,Tin 'Heads...)

Not a whole lot of armies have the utility to burst him down in turn 1.

 Haasbioroid wrote:

tulun wrote:
You can always beef up his attacks with Fists of Gork which is nice.

The real question for me is if that Goff Painboy is needed. If people are just bursting him down in 1 turn instead of spreading out damage over 3 turns, then it's pointless. It's not like you really wanna bring Goffs otherwise -- too many other detachments are looking far more interesting (Blood Axes, Grot Mobs, Freebootas, Evil Suns, death skulls,Tin 'Heads...)

Not a whole lot of armies have the utility to burst him down in turn 1.

Smite, shoot, charge is not *crazy* for certain meta armies right now, I think (GK, Eldar, Chaos, SM?).

I can't speak from experience unfortunately. That Goff painboy really is a kick in the balls, though. You basically waste a detachment just to take it, and even if you mix clan, the other stuff doesn't get clan bonuses.

I actually wonder if it's even intentional. Medisquig right now is a bit nonsensical with what it can target. Technically, it can heal a Stompa, as those can become characters. I wouldn't be surprised if it was removed as an option for Ghaz, as they might consider him "too tanky" with d3 extra wounds a turn.

You are all forgetting there are other phases to do dmg to him in. I ran an experiment with my campaign army and shredded ghaz in 1 turn. 3 scrapjets, and a SSAG Big mek SSAG and scrapjet gunz kill 4 wounds with ease in the shooting phase with enough big shoota's left over to clear any chaff in the way. Scrapjets charge in, one using the 3D6 charge strat. I then roll 3 dice looking for 4+ and another dice looking for a 2+, all do D3 mortal wounds in the CHARGE phase. in CC the scrapjets average exactly 4 wounds against Ghaz, and if you are worried about the chances you can always run in a warboss on bike or another fast unit to help finish him off.

Ghaz is a trap at this point, he might do well for a bit as people figure out how to deal with him but he isn't worth his points and doesn't buff anyone enough to justify taking him at all. Like I said, if the Goff rocker was allowed in matched play it might give more credence to a goff foot sloggin horde but atm there just isn't a place for him.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Theres two sides to the kulture keywords.

The keyword itself (e.g. Goff)
The Kulture associated with the keyword (e.g. the exploding 6s in melee)

The keyword remains, its what defines what kind of ork he is. Anything looking for that keyword (e.g. the new spells, new KFF, breakin' heads aura) will be looking for Goff if it affects him, so he benefits from his reroll 1s in melee regardless as he is always a Goff.
The Kulture is stripped unless the detachment is Goff because the rule that allows him to come in w/o messing things up for everybody else says so. Thus, he does not get exploding 6s in melee, nor does he get whatever that detachment normally has.

Exploding 6s going away to bring him in a non-goff detachment is a bit of a letdown but in the end its not really that big a deal. Biggest issue is you cant have a painboy "Mediqsuig" him unless said painboy is Goff, as that stratagem is klan locked (looking for the Keyword, not the kulture). Really the only things he isnt going to pulverize with his base profile is REALLY big things, 3+ invul on top of good FNP, or numbers. All of which the extra 1-2 hits would help of course, but only the numbers bit is a potential reality for him.

I am still waiting for the Saga of the beast FAQ but a Da boomer gunwagon + pyroscope + visions in the smoke could be really nasty

SemperMortis wrote:
You are all forgetting there are other phases to do dmg to him in. I ran an experiment with my campaign army and shredded ghaz in 1 turn. 3 scrapjets, and a SSAG Big mek SSAG and scrapjet gunz kill 4 wounds with ease in the shooting phase with enough big shoota's left over to clear any chaff in the way. Scrapjets charge in, one using the 3D6 charge strat. I then roll 3 dice looking for 4+ and another dice looking for a 2+, all do D3 mortal wounds in the CHARGE phase. in CC the scrapjets average exactly 4 wounds against Ghaz, and if you are worried about the chances you can always run in a warboss on bike or another fast unit to help finish him off.

Orks are probably one of the worst matchups for Ghaz. He wants to punch high value, expensive targets -- expensive vehicles, Aggressors / Assault Cents, etc, etc. Orks don't really present many of those typically, and even if they do, we can easily screen him out.

Don't forget Flying 'Eadbutt does Mortal Wounds in the movement phase, too. Hell, soften him up a little and a 30 man boy squad w/ a PK/ Kill Saw nob might clear him up in a couple rounds. Bonus points if you give them a melee invul w/ a KFF and a painboy just to make him laughably inept.

to be fair, that triple scrapjet ram + shooting (since if you can charge him with 3 big phat bases, hes not blocked by anything and can be shot) + the charge attacks would kill nearly any character, not just ghaz. 3 scrapjets is one hell of a footprint, since they cant do the "within 1 of a model in this unit thats within 1 of the enemy" shenanigans as individual models (remember they split once deployed)

Most characters once they reach melee ranges are not that hard to get rid of, mostly because it becomes super easy to get around the character protection when theyre trying to swing and cant have a 5-model thick wall in front of them anymore in order to do so. My friend recently picked up Abbadon and the INSTANT that guy wasnt blocked by 10+ plague marines and whatever else was there he went poof to my KMB's in an instant. Abbadon may not have the 4max per phase rule, but he doesnt have much more than that to begin with.

Ghaz's problem is he's gonna be half dead or worse by the time that point shows up. You dont even NEED to kill him in 1 turn because its super easy to just reduce him to just as "difficult" to kill as any 2+ character is before he gets to do anything.

Thank you for the clarification, I wrote a quick one at work and wasn't that clear

People tend to forget that smite only affect the closest visible unit and when you play 100+ Grots, IF Ghaz is the closest , than you are doing something very very wrong.
Beside GK, tzeench soups and maybe eldar council, I can't really see anybody having a chance to oneshot ghaz. AND those who does that, they will be left stranded exactly where you want em. In the middle of the board. Your opponent cannot shoot and be in cover, as smite and be hidden. They need to come out and play to take him out, and he's the best piñata to focus since he's a monster, but than again, now they are not shooting our gunz and veichle and they are out there getting dakka like Xmas

i mentioned that to my 1K sons friend when he said he'll just smite, shoot, and punch ghaz to dead in 1 turn.
VERY few psychic powers that does damage doesnt target the closest model, and usually when it can target anything it doesnt do much damage and/or is REALLY difficult to pull off.
If Ghaz is getting smited, i got a bigger problem.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i mentioned that to my 1K sons friend when he said he'll just smite, shoot, and punch ghaz to dead in 1 turn.
VERY few psychic powers that does damage doesnt target the closest model, and usually when it can target anything it doesnt do much damage and/or is REALLY difficult to pull off.
If Ghaz is getting smited, i got a bigger problem.

Of course, even being hard to kill, that doesn't make him GOOD.

It just makes him durable.

 Emicrania wrote:
Thank you for the clarification, I wrote a quick one at work and wasn't that clear

People tend to forget that smite only affect the closest visible unit and when you play 100+ Grots, IF Ghaz is the closest , than you are doing something very very wrong.
Beside GK, tzeench soups and maybe eldar council, I can't really see anybody having a chance to oneshot ghaz. AND those who does that, they will be left stranded exactly where you want em. In the middle of the board. Your opponent cannot shoot and be in cover, as smite and be hidden. They need to come out and play to take him out, and he's the best piñata to focus since he's a monster, but than again, now they are not shooting our gunz and veichle and they are out there getting dakka like Xmas

You have used him largely as a counter charger, right? What about in games where the enemy isn't super interested in getting close?

Seems a bit pricey if he's just standing there breakin' some grot heads. It's not like he's doing damage if he's not in CC, and if you have to push him forward, that's where he might be getting exposed for getting jumped.

I dunno, Ghaz costs a lot and does 3 things really. Is somewhat tough, is decently killy and is decently buffy with the right units around him. To really get his value you sort of need a lot of models running along side him otherwise you will indeed get more from a no-name warboss with the right buffs. I'm working with the idea of a lot of boy and an entourage of characters and maybe a nob unit just to be fluffy and cut down on model count. Yes a boy unit will kill most things it touches with all the buffs on it, but you can also mangle several units if the movement goes your way and that may be more valuable in a fair few matchups (fly and fallback abilities aside)

So I stumbled on now owning 10 Meganobz and 15Nobz. Was thinking of doing an elite heavy list, with Ghaz. I don't expect much, but at least with Orks it'll be different every game.

What would mix well with them you think?

Thanks guys, for the replies about the Forktress on Bonebreaka, I was leaning that way and totally agree with the reasoning.

I’m considering chucking my Weirdboy in there with a group of MANz, charging it up the board, then teleporting Ghaz next to them after they bale. Can then cast Fists of Gork on Ghaz, and he can then even take on units rather than just vehicles, or peeps with invuln saves. And also has the MANz to back him up. The only problem here is I won’t be able to Da Jump my big block of Boyz up there with him, not really sure about that, since my other leader I just managed to squeeze in is a Big Mek w/ KFF to protect the Mek Gunz.
What do you guys think?

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Thanks guys, for the replies about the Forktress on Bonebreaka, I was leaning that way and totally agree with the reasoning.

I’m considering chucking my Weirdboy in there with a group of MANz, charging it up the board, then teleporting Ghaz next to them after they bale. Can then cast Fists of Gork on Ghaz, and he can then even take on units rather than just vehicles, or peeps with invuln saves. And also has the MANz to back him up. The only problem here is I won’t be able to Da Jump my big block of Boyz up there with him, not really sure about that, since my other leader I just managed to squeeze in is a Big Mek w/ KFF to protect the Mek Gunz.
What do you guys think?

The issue with that is that is that Ghaz isn't really adding much that a biggest boss warboss isn't already doing for fewer points. And doing it this way you can then da jump some boys in as well for more support.

I guess you can teleport the blob of boyz in too. But that’s eating up a lot of CP at that point.

SemperMortis wrote:
You are all forgetting there are other phases to do dmg to him in. I ran an experiment with my campaign army and shredded ghaz in 1 turn. 3 scrapjets, and a SSAG Big mek SSAG and scrapjet gunz kill 4 wounds with ease in the shooting phase with enough big shoota's left over to clear any chaff in the way. Scrapjets charge in, one using the 3D6 charge strat. I then roll 3 dice looking for 4+ and another dice looking for a 2+, all do D3 mortal wounds in the CHARGE phase. in CC the scrapjets average exactly 4 wounds against Ghaz, and if you are worried about the chances you can always run in a warboss on bike or another fast unit to help finish him off.

Ghaz is a trap at this point, he might do well for a bit as people figure out how to deal with him but he isn't worth his points and doesn't buff anyone enough to justify taking him at all. Like I said, if the Goff rocker was allowed in matched play it might give more credence to a goff foot sloggin horde but atm there just isn't a place for him.

So that's more points than ghaz, sometimes you go second and wil' lose some of those, you still need to clear chaff(3 scrapjets won'' clear 20-30 gretchin or unit of boyz in a hurry), get charges which isn't quaranteed with 3 units with huge footprints(especially if you didn't clear chaff) and even if you succeed in killing sub 300 pts model you have 3 scrapjet costing about that out there and dead. And he can intercept and kill 2 scrapjets after 1st has attacked if he's worried.

You are investing more points, not quaranteed and lose your scrapjets. Ghaz would be silly broken if superior amount of points wouldnt at least worry him

Oh and how you calculated average damage? If it was the usual shots x odds of hit x odds of wounding etc that leaves flawed result as that assumes no overkill and good rolls average bad rolls whicb with ghaz doesn't work. 8 damage does not average 0 damage. I ran into this with pylon vs baneblade. Above formula gives 31 damage. 24w target so near sure death? No. 57.72% odds of one shotting and true average around 19 damage. Big difference. Ghaz is basically 4w model for calculations so any damage over 4 wasted and won't balance under 4 rolls

(nevermind literally nothing can average exactly 4 wounds unless it auto hits, auto wounds and automatically goes past save. Even warlord titan averages less than 4 wounds though albeit here we are talking very tiny decimals under 4 wounds )

The point is Ghaz isn't durable to begin with because if he is footslogging you will get at least 2 rounds of shooting at him. So turn 2 he gets close enough to be a threat and he is likely dead.

To me, Ghaz is a trap unit who looks good but isnt.

SemperMortis wrote:
The point is Ghaz isn't durable to begin with because if he is footslogging you will get at least 2 rounds of shooting at him. So turn 2 he gets close enough to be a threat and he is likely dead.

To me, Ghaz is a trap unit who looks good but isnt.

Well, Emi has stated he's had some success with Ghaz, so there is some evidence to the contrary.

It seems clear he's a really, really good countercharger -- he basically hard counters assault centurions and their ilk, which are busted. And because his morale aura isn't <CLAN> locked, he does help keep all your gak around.

If you keep him back in your zone / the midfield and properly screen him, he should probably be relatively easy to keep alive, especially with a painboy.

The problem I see is how do you use him in other matchups where he needs to be aggressive? Because then those problems you point out become an issue. And he's a lot of points to NOT be throwing at your enemy.

Even if you use him as a counter charge unit, you will by necessity have to keep him out of LOS because those assault centurions aren't attacking turn 1 which means your opponent will get at least 2 turns of shooting at Ghaz before those cents are ready to be counter charged.

This falls into the "Too new to know" category. Emi's opponent made a tactical mistake because he didn't understand ghaz yet. its unlikely someone is going to make that same blunder twice so as players get a bit more experience against him they will realize how useless the model is and will designate some shooting to it and then promptly ignore it until it needs to be dealt with.

Does anyone think we are getting any previews Saturday? I don’t recall any rumors of any additional models coming soon however there was a GW guess the picture post we kinda felt could be a big Mek Weapon.

gungo wrote:
Does anyone think we are getting any previews Saturday? I don’t recall any rumors of any additional models coming soon however there was a GW guess the picture post we kinda felt could be a big Mek Weapon.

There are two rumor engines that can reliably be assumed to be Ork models: a boot on top of an ammo case with the familiar dagz/teef bits bolted onto the toe, and a saw that is a dead ringer for a Deff Dread saw, except attached to some sort of polearm.

As an aside, GW's "Price adjustments" which, you know, I think we all know means going up, not down, include at least the following:

Ork Boys
Grots
Nobz
Lootas/Burnas
Bikes
Trukks

…

Ouch.

I have a decent selection of most of these, but it's getting harder and harder for new Ork players to get made. That's a huge chunk of must-haves there.

They are going up again?
Seriously, some boxes are now twice as expensive as when I started...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
The point is Ghaz isn't durable to begin with because if he is footslogging you will get at least 2 rounds of shooting at him. So turn 2 he gets close enough to be a threat and he is likely dead.

To me, Ghaz is a trap unit who looks good but isnt.

Well, Emi has stated he's had some success with Ghaz, so there is some evidence to the contrary.

It seems clear he's a really, really good countercharger -- he basically hard counters assault centurions and their ilk, which are busted. And because his morale aura isn't <CLAN> locked, he does help keep all your gak around.

If you keep him back in your zone / the midfield and properly screen him, he should probably be relatively easy to keep alive, especially with a painboy.

The problem I see is how do you use him in other matchups where he needs to be aggressive? Because then those problems you point out become an issue. And he's a lot of points to NOT be throwing at your enemy.

I agree, I can see how he helps in the current top table meta, but when you are facing an army that just wants to keep away from you and shoot like sisters, necrons or tau? Haven't had a chance to play him yet, so still reserving judgement.

With the exception of space marines most true gunline armies may be hard pressed to deal damage to him outside the shooting phase. Tau, IG, Necrons, don't have a ton of psychic or melee.

I find it difficult to work him into lists thus far, but I would likely keep him in the tellyporta till needed. Even if that's to camp a far off objective, he presents a natural immunity to being shot off the board, and has a smaller footpront than 30 boyz, so is easier to place when deep striking.