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So I could get one clan and one kulture without penalty? That would be perfect.

 Haasbioroid wrote:
So I could get one clan and one kulture without penalty? That would be perfect.

That’s the idea they are encouraging less soup by removing CP everytime you add a new detachment and new chapter/kultur.
So let’s say for example 2000pt game is 20cp (I’m just guessing)
If you take a battalion or brigade and fit everything. You have 20cp to use during the game.
If you take another detachment from a different kultur you would pay for example only 2cp
Meaning you have 18cp for the game...
If you take a third detachment and a third different kultur (and I’m assuming it’s now 3 cp cost)
You would only have 12 cp for the game...

The above is my guess on costs but the first detachment and kultur are free.. if my guess above is correct there will likely be a sweet spot around a double detachment using multiple chapters/kulturs, Like relics. This will likely cut down on the soup issue a bit...

But again I doubt units like assassins will cost a cp to take and I’m unsure about subkulturs but they will extremely limited if they end up costing cp.

One thing I'm curious about. Two of the things we are hearing being almost set in stone is that everyone can hit on a 6 but modifiers are capped to -1 and +1 Outside of ourselves I don't think anyone has wide access to BS5 units? Kind of makes the whole modifier cap a little pointless doesn't it?

Guarantee theres going to be rules that cause a -2 to hit modifier anyway.

But, there are other BS5 units. Drones w/o a Drone Controller are one and i think Tyranids have some too. (Theyre weird, they kinda have every WS/BS stat)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Guarantee theres going to be rules that cause a -2 to hit modifier anyway.

But, there are other BS5 units. Drones w/o a Drone Controller are one and i think Tyranids have some too. (Theyre weird, they kinda have every WS/BS stat)

True, but they aren't a mainstay of their army right? I mean most factions can list the BS5 units they have on one hand. But for us we have to do that with BS4 as if it's impressive. xP
Though i'll be happy to not have to deal with people getting +2 to hit on us I will miss having a BS3 Naught stomping around.

cody.d. wrote:
One thing I'm curious about. Two of the things we are hearing being almost set in stone is that everyone can hit on a 6 but modifiers are capped to -1 and +1 Outside of ourselves I don't think anyone has wide access to BS5 units? Kind of makes the whole modifier cap a little pointless doesn't it?

People are theorizing that like moving with Heavy weapons will become -1 BS not -1 to hit.

So maybe there are other ways to get low enough BS so that always hits on 6's matters.

Lots of vehicles also hit on a 6+, so now will always have a chance to hit their target.

Certainly a possibility. Damn I'm keen to see all the changes, see if it makes the game feel more diverse and fun.

They will need to make a few -1bs abilities because without it there is going to be issues with some armies having (aka eldar) with multiple -1 to hit sources.

cody.d. wrote:
One thing I'm curious about. Two of the things we are hearing being almost set in stone is that everyone can hit on a 6 but modifiers are capped to -1 and +1 Outside of ourselves I don't think anyone has wide access to BS5 units? Kind of makes the whole modifier cap a little pointless doesn't it?

Fortifications and degraded units come to mind. Also keep in mind that this also applies to WS, and there are a lot of units with WS5+ or worse.

gungo wrote:

 Haasbioroid wrote:
So I could get one clan and one kulture without penalty? That would be perfect.

That’s the idea they are encouraging less soup by removing CP everytime you add a new detachment and new chapter/kultur.

Let's be clear that this is guessing. We know that additional codexes cost CP and we know that extra detachments cost CP - but we don't know whether klans/cults/hive fleets etc do. We also don't know exactly what is meant by 'first detachment free'. The detachment itself might be dictated - i.e. at 2000 points you might get a free battalion, but you have to pay for a spearhead even if it's your only detachment. Maybe at 1000 points your free detachment option is a patrol or whatever.

Maybe there are entirely new detachment. I'd suggest that this seems very likely.

cody.d. wrote:
One thing I'm curious about. Two of the things we are hearing being almost set in stone is that everyone can hit on a 6 but modifiers are capped to -1 and +1 Outside of ourselves I don't think anyone has wide access to BS5 units? Kind of makes the whole modifier cap a little pointless doesn't it?

Well the stream was fairly casual so it could be "you always hit on 6's" is basically because nobody has BS6+ so -1 to hit max is essentially 6's always hit.

Or there ARE some ways to get -2. Heavy weapon moving being prime candinate since it's something you rather than enemy controls. Aka you can avoid that. Opponent can't force it on you.

Or there's 6's always hit to future proof.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
They will need to make a few -1bs abilities because without it there is going to be issues with some armies having (aka eldar) with multiple -1 to hit sources.

Eh isn't that the point? No comboing those so that hitting them is super hard...

6's auto-hit is also a bigger thing in CC, as many tanks have a WS of 6+ so they can't hit things with a negative modifier as of right now. And a Culexus assassin can't be hit with powerklaws as of right now either.

I don't actually think that that rule will be super important but mostly remove the "feel bad" edge cases though.

tneva82 wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
One thing I'm curious about. Two of the things we are hearing being almost set in stone is that everyone can hit on a 6 but modifiers are capped to -1 and +1 Outside of ourselves I don't think anyone has wide access to BS5 units? Kind of makes the whole modifier cap a little pointless doesn't it?

Well the stream was fairly casual so it could be "you always hit on 6's" is basically because nobody has BS6+ so -1 to hit max is essentially 6's always hit.

Degraded units have BS6+ fairly often.

Fair point. So it's rule that has point. Nothing weird there then.

tulun wrote:

Honestly, if they are trying to encourage mono faction, this is fine. Orks fill up brigades easily. I also wonder if certain detachments will cost less if you’re forced to take troops.

Just means we’re selective with our second detachment choice in list building.

I reckon death skull + <CLAN> will become really common, because DS is just so good for all around competitively.

As a mono-Klan Evil Sunz guy, I can attest that the Sunz work just fine on their own as well. Not a lot of units don't appreciate having extra Move, or ignoring movement shooting penalties.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Guarantee theres going to be rules that cause a -2 to hit modifier anyway.

But, there are other BS5 units. Drones w/o a Drone Controller are one and i think Tyranids have some too. (Theyre weird, they kinda have every WS/BS stat)

My guess is a unit, such as a Dark Eldar Venom, which causes a minus -1 from its unit entry would stack with say moving and firing a heavy weapon because the sources come from different units, but not the penalty for moving heavy weapons and being under the psychic power Drain. I can see that being clunky to intrepid at the table, but when has that ever stopped GW.

 Lysit wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Guarantee theres going to be rules that cause a -2 to hit modifier anyway.

But, there are other BS5 units. Drones w/o a Drone Controller are one and i think Tyranids have some too. (Theyre weird, they kinda have every WS/BS stat)

My guess is a unit, such as a Dark Eldar Venom, which causes a minus -1 from its unit entry would stack with say moving and firing a heavy weapon because the sources come from different units, but not the penalty for moving heavy weapons and being under the psychic power Drain. I can see that being clunky to intrepid at the table, but when has that ever stopped GW.

If there is comboing I expect moving with heavy weapon to be only one as that's what you control. Though I still expect it to be flat out no worse than -1 so if you are already under -1 and not modifier moving is not penalized.

 mikethefish wrote:

tulun wrote:

Honestly, if they are trying to encourage mono faction, this is fine. Orks fill up brigades easily. I also wonder if certain detachments will cost less if you’re forced to take troops.

Just means we’re selective with our second detachment choice in list building.

I reckon death skull + <CLAN> will become really common, because DS is just so good for all around competitively.

As a mono-Klan Evil Sunz guy, I can attest that the Sunz work just fine on their own as well. Not a lot of units don't appreciate having extra Move, or ignoring movement shooting penalties.

To be frank, most units of ours do not care about the move or advance bonus (and to be clear, ES removes the penalty for advancing and assault weapons, not general movement shooting penalties)-- in reality, the primary thing that keeps Evil suns a thing is +1 to charge, because one of our main strategies is deep strike and charge infantry. If that was ever takable by the likes of Deathskulls, Freebootas, or Goffs, Evil suns would die competitively, as the other clans charge rates would become consistent. Their new psychic power is good, but sadly, most of the vehicles we wanna buff have a WC9 cast, and you generally don't wanna field a lot of boys if you're fielding the big Dreads.

If you're gonna go Mono clan, I'd probably pin Evil Suns as low as 3rd behind Deathskulls and Freebootas competitively, imo -- not a terrible place, but Deathskulls just universally help our units better (rerolls, 6++, and Obsec on non-troop infantry including our HQs), and Freebootas really get a power boost mono clan because you are much more likely to trigger their clan trait. And as is being demonstrated by some competitive players, getting your Flash Gits to a BS3+ with re-roll ones and exploding 6's is broken.

Stuff might be shaken up in 9th, of course, but I would be shocked if Deathskulls gets supplanted as the best mono clan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a quick theorycraft note --

Does the ObSec nature of Deathskulls infantry start to look really good? If a lot of armies start to abandon troops, our infantry HQs, Nobs, Mega Nobs, and Stormboyz all getting ObSec seems really, really powerful.

I could see Deathskull Stormboyz in particular starting to look really good. Obscuring terrain will help them move up the board, they have an 80% chance to do a 26" charge (12" + auto 6" advance + 2d6" charge), and you can now outflank a weirdboy with Maniacal Seizure to give them AP-1 on whatever they are charging. Heck, they can even wreck vehicles T7 or less, as you can use Wreckers on them to give them all re-roll to wound, and they just steal objectives from our enemies.

Deathskulls obj secured has always won games but yes I forsee a lot of non competitive gamers not pay attention to obj secured troops.

Stormboys are just not worth the points.. they are borderline good. But never got that extra strategem push to make them better...which is they lack a punch.

On a related note I ended up helping my local shop by buying the squig buggy and building it. I know it’s useless but it’s one of the few models I don’t have

Reckon with the 1+ to wound rolls and a trio of them it could do some damage? I know it's still the most expensive of the 3 and has a clunky, all over the place ruleset but +1 to wound is still fairly handy to have against a lot of targets.

gungo wrote:
Deathskulls obj secured has always won games but yes I forsee a lot of non competitive gamers not pay attention to obj secured troops.

Stormboys are just not worth the points.. they are borderline good. But never got that extra strategem push to make them better...which is they lack a punch.

On a related note I ended up helping my local shop by buying the squig buggy and building it. I know it’s useless but it’s one of the few models I don’t have

I think the damage bonus would be AP-1 Choppa / slugga attacks.

But yeah, their stratagem options are obviously worse than boys.

I do think there will be some exploration for these non-boy options now you aren't forced into a troop tax, though.

gungo wrote:
Deathskulls obj secured has always won games but yes I forsee a lot of non competitive gamers not pay attention to obj secured troops.

Stormboys are just not worth the points.. they are borderline good. But never got that extra strategem push to make them better...which is they lack a punch.

On a related note I ended up helping my local shop by buying the squig buggy and building it. I know it’s useless but it’s one of the few models I don’t have

I think that their punch is fine it's their *survivability* that needs help.

They're too easy to pick off on the move, die badly to overwatch, and then whatever they jumped just murders them in CC.

Orks *desperately* need a 5+ save.

Changes to cover rules could help that. If it's not all or nothing with a unit, if it's not just a 1+ to armor instead a separate save like it used to be. Either or both of those would make hordes a bit tougher, help counteract the new blast weapon mechanics.

You can already Take stornboys in a flyboy subkultur... Which is cover save in open and -1 to hit in melee...

The problem I have with stormboys is even in a max 15 man unit. And let’s say I’m lucky to get 10 into combat after Shooting, movement deaths and overwatch...10 boys without any other buffs and regular choppas don’t really do much. It’s the same issue with warbikers which have better saves they are just fast overpriced boys that don’t do enough damage due to lack of numbers.

They needed a strategem to increase thier damage on the charge... “rokkit charge” 1 cp on a turn a unit of stormboys charge Each model in this unit gets +1 str, +1atk.. (I’d even take +1 atk, and -1ap in melee on turn they charge.)

I can work with str5 stormboys with 3 atks each. Str 4 and 2 atks is a lot weaker.

Well you don't shove STormboys or Bikers into mainline combat units … you use their speed to hit weak targets, like artillery. Stormboys can wreck a unit of IG mortars, for instance, or deal with a 5-mean Devastator squad. Bikers can drive a unit of scouts off of a tactical objective just fine.

But you can't, you know, expect to mug a bunch of Terminators and get away with it.

You pay a premium for the SPEED of those units. Don't waste it.

Don't stormboyz already have 3 attacks base? 2 for being an ork, 1 for choppas? And if you pop a warpath on them that'll be 4 per lad. And you can have 30 of the buggers in a unit. That's 30 lads with 4 attacks a piece that can move 20" without a roll. Yeah you lose 1 in 6 for it but there's some power there. If it was anything less than 2pts extra from a boy there would be an issue right?

Wakshaani wrote:
Well you don't shove STormboys or Bikers into mainline combat units … you use their speed to hit weak targets, like artillery. Stormboys can wreck a unit of IG mortars, for instance, or deal with a 5-mean Devastator squad. Bikers can drive a unit of scouts off of a tactical objective just fine.

But you can't, you know, expect to mug a bunch of Terminators and get away with it.

You pay a premium for the SPEED of those units. Don't waste it.

Sorry, but that is a bunch of nonsense. Did you actually ever play these units?

"Can kill a unit of IG mortars" is not a quality. Literally everything can do that, especially all those extra big shootas we get on every other vehicle, we are talking about guardsmen with two wounds here. The only thing keeping these alive is screening and LOS blocking - which means unless your opponent is an idiot you will not be able to reach them turn one, and if they are sitting in a ruin, bikes can't ever touch them.

And when you say they can kill artillery, that's just wrong. They will bounce off artillery vehicles like basilisks, LRBT, doomsday arks or executioners, have no chance of actually harming a battle suit and won't even be able to take out a single TF cannon on average - assuming you actually get all 30 models into the fight. Heck, they'd even struggle killing mek guns.
So the turn after you failed to destroy the artillery, they fall back and simply gun your 270 point unit down, assuming you even get that far. Most people will just focus down storm boyz first though, or might hit them with a stratagem that neuters them.

The one and only redeeming quality of storm boyz is being able to charge across the board turn one and thus restricting your opponent's ability to control the midfield and capture objectives, so you don't solely have to rely on the boyz you flung forward turn one. "You pay for the speed" is a joke when boy are already rather bad at killing anything that isn't lightly armored infantry and you lose green tide in comparison to them.
At 9 points per wound they are still adding to the horde saturation, but they are very much a cannon fodder/utility with a low damage output.

Bikers have literally never been a melee unit, as 12 boyz are simply nothing to write home about, even less so in 8th. Their shooting is ok-ish, but not worth spending that many points on. Their sole reason for playing them at all is using the kult of speed detachment for *guaranteed* first turn charges/arrests and because they tend to last longer in combat than boyz with their 2W/T5/4+ profile against units like intercessors and other units which rely on S4 AP0 attacks. With 3-5CP and 280+ points, the price tag for this small boost in reliability over ES MANz is beyond what could be considered reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Don't stormboyz already have 3 attacks base? 2 for being an ork, 1 for choppas? And if you pop a warpath on them that'll be 4 per lad. And you can have 30 of the buggers in a unit. That's 30 lads with 4 attacks a piece that can move 20" without a roll. Yeah you lose 1 in 6 for it but there's some power there. If it was anything less than 2pts extra from a boy there would be an issue right?

The thing is, warpath has a range of 18" while storm boyz move 20". Even if the weird boy can keep up, you are very much setting him up to be killed next turn, worst case by a smash captain or daemon prince using your psyker to slingshot himself into your army.

I've abandoned warpath for my vehicle list for this reason(now using fists/da jump and seizures/da jump), most of the time my psykers are jumping themselves to be in range for buffing or smiting stuff because otherwise they are forced to chose between being out of position or out of range. In a list running storm boyz, you are very much forced to jump boyz along with them to keep pressure up.

Reece in the frontlinegaming article "9th ed 40k on the Way!", in the comment section, said Horde armies were in for a tough time in 9th.
This confirms what many "fearmongers" were saying. Seems strange design to me, because horde armies could basically do nothing vs SM armies end of 9th (too many attacks in CC), so it seems strange that GW made it harder to play horde armies.

Monsters and dreads surely needed a push, but not at the expense of hordes IMHO.

We will see though because at the worst Hordes will be helped simply by being couter meta so I am not too scared honestly. I ordered stuff to kitbash 30 stormboyz, and I plan on using these loosers no matter what !!

Well Reece is also the guy who said stompa is thing to fear in 8th ed. I wouldn't trust him on anything that involves orks.

yeah i dont trust a single thing Reece says, he's always way off. He has the hyper-casual mentality, which is why he thought the stompa was awesome because in a hyper-casual nobody has tons of anti vehicle or mega dangerous melee fast enough to get the charge on the stompa and pound it before it swings back.