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There have been several variants and interpretations on that rule so far.

I’d take the community teams written product with a small grain of salt and it’s also possible Stu or the other rules team likely misspoke. So let’s wait til the Is released and then Errata because even as written it’s clear as mud.

The funny thing is this is one of the biggest 9th edition changes I hoped the playtesters would have cleared up

There are so many questions around Blast its giving me a headache. Considering the rule is free anyway i wish they'd just reveal it all (what gun gets it what doesnt) as well as clarify if its per dice or per weapon.
Really all i can know for a fact is 10x nobz with 2 ammo runts is a REALLY bad idea, unless they specify Ammo Runts dont count (highly, HIGHLY doubt they'd do that). More than likely Nobz will be 9x+1 now, which is slightly annoying but still usable. I dont wanna use 2x5+1 because they still suffer from 6+ models and devalue Loot It! massively doing that.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
There are so many questions around Blast its giving me a headache. Considering the rule is free anyway i wish they'd just reveal it all (what gun gets it what doesnt) as well as clarify if its per dice or per weapon.
Really all i can know for a fact is 10x nobz with 2 ammo runts is a REALLY bad idea, unless they specify Ammo Runts dont count (highly, HIGHLY doubt they'd do that). More than likely Nobz will be 9x+1 now, which is slightly annoying but still usable. I dont wanna use 2x5+1 because they still suffer from 6+ models and devalue Loot It! massively doing that.

Yeah, thank to "Loot It!" going 9+1 is definitely more viable than 2x(5+1). Without any doubt runts will count: they take a seat in transports and they can also soak the first hit that unit is suffering so I don't see how they shouldn't count.

About blast weapons, not all the D3-D6 shots (and multiple of each) weapons will get the rule. Weapons that used to be 1+ shots in older editions won't get it, that's my guess. Only weapons that actually used the blasts/large blasts. The Smasha Gun for example won't have it, I fear.

By the info given today, wouldn't any Blast gun with a multi-D3 shot number automatically get its maximum number of shots against units with 6+ models?

Apparently it’s weapons with:
1) random shots
2) a ranged characteristic
3) doesn’t auto hit.

We’ll see if there are exceptions.

Isn't blast just a new keyword/special rule they can post on to pretty much anything they choose?

It only makes sense on ranged weapons with random shots though.

I also agree that at 8 points boyz would be dead. There is no way you can justify 240 points for a unit of boyz.

 Jidmah wrote:
It only makes sense on ranged weapons with random shots though.

I also agree that at 8 points boyz would be dead. There is no way you can justify 240 points for a unit of boyz.

Before nob weapons too.

It’s coming. I can’t see them not raising their cost. They want to reduce army size.

Well everything is increasing in cost, the question is merely one of percentages. A boy could be tougher or squishier based on the PPW a marine puts out. But I do feel that as long as they're decently pointed units of nobs in all their flavours could become more and more common.

cody.d. wrote:
Well everything is increasing in cost, the question is merely one of percentages. A boy could be tougher or squishier based on the PPW a marine puts out. But I do feel that as long as they're decently pointed units of nobs in all their flavours could become more and more common.

I agree. Boyz going up to 8 or 9 points may make a lot of sense in 9th. Blast weapons seem scary for hordes but we might see other rules that make them worth while, such as terrain or actions unique to troops/boyz. I'm a bit tired of playing hordes so I'm personally hoping that trukk boyz makes a comeback.
I do think 9th will have some growing pains early on but given how much Orks improved throughout 8th I'm confident we'll find our place.

 Quackzo wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Well everything is increasing in cost, the question is merely one of percentages. A boy could be tougher or squishier based on the PPW a marine puts out. But I do feel that as long as they're decently pointed units of nobs in all their flavours could become more and more common.

I agree. Boyz going up to 8 or 9 points may make a lot of sense in 9th. Blast weapons seem scary for hordes but we might see other rules that make them worth while, such as terrain or actions unique to troops/boyz. I'm a bit tired of playing hordes so I'm personally hoping that trukk boyz makes a comeback.
I do think 9th will have some growing pains early on but given how much Orks improved throughout 8th I'm confident we'll find our place.

Ooh yeah, I remember the uphill slog that 6th and 7th edition were. 8th has been fairly fun for orks, being able to actually compete.

I really liked 8th as it had a lot of choices and back then the basics.
I think 9th is going to be a shift and I don’t think it’s cleaning up the rules mess like I hoped.
Not necessarily bad just I think the devs are focusing on speeding up the game with a focus on vehicles and monsters. Smaller boards and a little less rolling.
But we will see

6/7th had 2 major problems for orks, the first obvious one being removing wounds from the front so on average it took us a full turn more to get across the board than other armies.
Other issue was the challenge bullcrap, since NONE of our characters except ghaz's once a game 2++ save shenanigans could actually hope to win a challenge and as a result is always forced out of the fight for some stupid reason. Never understood why the hell that rule became a thing, since when did anybody even marines in the 41st millennium care about chivalry and honor?

Ork boyz have always been 2.5 boys to a marine in the past and suddenly its more like 1.5. They need to go back to the 2.5 ratio, or give us a base armor save and keep the 1.5 one.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
6/7th had 2 major problems for orks, the first obvious one being removing wounds from the front so on average it took us a full turn more to get across the board than other armies.
Other issue was the challenge bullcrap, since NONE of our characters except ghaz's once a game 2++ save shenanigans could actually hope to win a challenge and as a result is always forced out of the fight for some stupid reason. Never understood why the hell that rule became a thing, since when did anybody even marines in the 41st millennium care about chivalry and honor?

Ork boyz have always been 2.5 boys to a marine in the past and suddenly its more like 1.5. They need to go back to the 2.5 ratio, or give us a base armor save and keep the 1.5 one.

Boyz have been getting progressively better and better though. Remember when the buggers were just Str 3 and you couldn't charge out of deepstrike (which scattered all over the bloody place too)

Yeah, comparatively speaking, Orks are in a much better place than in 6th/7th, which I would argue was one of our worst rulesets since we literally only had a few competitive crutches to rely on (the Lucky Stikk MAW, KMK artillery spam and stuff like the Blitz Brigade and Bully Boyz formations). I think the closest to where we are now before 9th is probably back in early 5th ed, where we had a decent mixture of mech orks, kan wall and general green tide. I think the biggest change is the general lack of durability for most factions in 8th given how killing ability when through the roof with rerolls, and so while Orks can bring the pain, we lack a lot of the resilience that we had previously since cover was nonexistent in 8th, and a a 5+ invuln just doesn't cut it anymore.

 Blackie wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
There are so many questions around Blast its giving me a headache. Considering the rule is free anyway i wish they'd just reveal it all (what gun gets it what doesnt) as well as clarify if its per dice or per weapon.
Really all i can know for a fact is 10x nobz with 2 ammo runts is a REALLY bad idea, unless they specify Ammo Runts dont count (highly, HIGHLY doubt they'd do that). More than likely Nobz will be 9x+1 now, which is slightly annoying but still usable. I dont wanna use 2x5+1 because they still suffer from 6+ models and devalue Loot It! massively doing that.

Yeah, thank to "Loot It!" going 9+1 is definitely more viable than 2x(5+1). Without any doubt runts will count: they take a seat in transports and they can also soak the first hit that unit is suffering so I don't see how they shouldn't count.

About blast weapons, not all the D3-D6 shots (and multiple of each) weapons will get the rule. Weapons that used to be 1+ shots in older editions won't get it, that's my guess. Only weapons that actually used the blasts/large blasts. The Smasha Gun for example won't have it, I fear.

Wonder if runts will be changed to what sister's cherbub's are. Both are essentially one off counters. Why one is essentially model and other is counter 100% ignored for everything while on board is weird.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Well everything is increasing in cost, the question is merely one of percentages. A boy could be tougher or squishier based on the PPW a marine puts out. But I do feel that as long as they're decently pointed units of nobs in all their flavours could become more and more common.

Well 1 pts increase would actually help ork relative to marines(14% pts vs 17% increase). The real killer won't be point cost(as you said everything is going up) but how it also comes with looooooooots of rule nerfs to boyz and rule buffs to marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
6/7th had 2 major problems for orks, the first obvious one being removing wounds from the front so on average it took us a full turn more to get across the board than other armies.
Other issue was the challenge bullcrap, since NONE of our characters except ghaz's once a game 2++ save shenanigans could actually hope to win a challenge and as a result is always forced out of the fight for some stupid reason. Never understood why the hell that rule became a thing, since when did anybody even marines in the 41st millennium care about chivalry and honor?

Ork boyz have always been 2.5 boys to a marine in the past and suddenly its more like 1.5. They need to go back to the 2.5 ratio, or give us a base armor save and keep the 1.5 one.

Eh assuming 8 pts per boy it's 20 to 8 which is...2.5 boy vs marine. 8th ed it was 2.42 boy per marine.

Well, per Primaris marine.

We still don't know how much Tacticals are going to be. 15'd be my guess, but, YMMV.

About points value on boyz: at 8ppm they can be even better than now IF everything else go up by 15-20% or even more. Slugga boyz were 9ppm in 3rd, only S3 and still good, in that context they weren't overpriced.

To me boyz are dead because 8th edition new profiles made p.klaw a joke and boyz have been nothing but the ablative wounds for a lone p.klaw since 5th edition. As long as klaws are dead, also boyz are dead. Sure they can have a role for tarpitting things and board control like in 8th, but we don't need them that much if that is their only purpose, especially if we aren't forced to take multiple troops squads thanks to the new FOC.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
Well, per Primaris marine.

We still don't know how much Tacticals are going to be. 15'd be my guess, but, YMMV.

Tacs are 13 at the moment, I don't think they'll go up like primaris. 13, 14 at most, is my guess. Unless GW has the clear intention to squat them without cutting them from the codex and relegating them to legends.

So taking apart what we do know about 9th:
- Boyz are barely worth their points right now, their main use is tying down enemy units and dictating their movement. The changes to monsters and vehicles severely limits this ability.
- Units like eliminators will no longer be able to hide on boxes or small ruins.
- "Cut them down" is unlikely to have any impact on people falling back from boyz, nor do we have a high incentive to use it outside of edge cases
- Between obstacles and obscuring terrain, boyz will most likely take less casualties when moving across the board. However, we aren't moving them across the board right now, and deep striking will not be affected by this change.
- We need three units of troops for our free detachment, and unless there is a major change to transport it will be a competition between 30 boyz and 10 gretchin. Even at 5 points per grot, the cheap option will still be very attractive compared to blocking more than a third of your points with troops
- Armies are losing 100-200 points - due need the reduced need for troops, cuts are most likely be done there. People will not be dropping their anti-infantry units like agressors or TF cannons.

So unless there is some massive help for infantry not revealed yet, 8 point boyz might very well push them out of the competitive scope.

 Jidmah wrote:

- We need three units of troops for our free detachment

Has GW said that only Battallions cost 0 CPs if they are taken as primary detachments? We havent's seen other detachments sheets yet.

Maybe any detachment costs 0 points if it's the core one, and if that is true I can see Spearheads (mostly) or Outriders detachments become a thing as they'll be big enough to allow pretty much anything (maybe it's just the 0-2 HQs that could hurt, but it's only -1 HQ allowed compared to a Battallion), including 0-3 troops, without forcing the player to take 3 mandatory troops.

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

- We need three units of troops for our free detachment

Has GW said that only Battallions cost 0 CPs if they are taken as primary detachments? We havent's seen other detachments sheets yet.

Maybe any detachment costs 0 points if it's the core one, and if that is true I can see Spearheads (mostly) or Outriders detachments become a thing as they'll be big enough to allow pretty much anything (maybe it's just the 0-2 HQs that could hurt, but it's only -1 HQ allowed compared to a Battallion), including 0-3 troops, without forcing the player to take 3 mandatory troops.

Patrol is also one that pays back but that case you run short on slots. Brigade is 3rd and last but troop tax doubles there. But GW specifically said only those 3 gets refund as those 3 are the core det's. Outrider etc aren't core ones.

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

- We need three units of troops for our free detachment

Has GW said that only Battallions cost 0 CPs if they are taken as primary detachments? We havent's seen other detachments sheets yet.

Maybe any detachment costs 0 points if it's the core one, and if that is true I can see Spearheads (mostly) or Outriders detachments become a thing as they'll be big enough to allow pretty much anything (maybe it's just the 0-2 HQs that could hurt, but it's only -1 HQ allowed compared to a Battallion), including 0-3 troops, without forcing the player to take 3 mandatory troops.

The play testers have confirmed that only the three core detachments will refund their CP cost if your warlord is part of them. All other detachments will cost CP. It's not hard to guess that the core detachments are patrol, battalion and brigade.
Due to the limited slots of patrols, I would be surprised if battalions wouldn't be the core of most armies.

I think it's clear that boys are in trouble if they go up in cost. It's hard to say if their typical "Da Jump -> charge" strategy still won't work, but they are likely too slow to be able to slog between obscuring terrain to stay out of line of sight, and frankly, they might barely be able to hide BEHIND terrain in deployment with 30 x 32 mm bases.

1) The sentiment that trukk boys will somehow comeback is... misguided. A weak ass PK and Primaris prevents this. Troops need to be cheap or effective. Boys right now have a niche role that can easily go away if they get too expensive, or if how reserves works changes too much. Plus, we're more likely stuck in mono clan, and Evil Suns is NOT the mono clan of choice.

2) Let's look at Jeff Poole's list as an example.
We know from Stu Black that his space marine list will lose approximately one squad. Let's assume this is 1 squad of intercessors (around 170 points).

If grots go up 1 point, and boys go up 1 point, jeff loses 165 points from that ALONE. This doesn't include any other points increases. I reckon this would spike his list up 50-60 points. Now, how does he do losing 230-250 points?

3) Saga of the beast shows they are pushing elite stuff. I think beyond that some of this stuff needed buffs, if Saga was built with 9th in mind, they are basically yelling at us "TAKE VEHICLES AND MEGA NOBS", among the actual good stuff from the book.

Unless boys can perform actions INSIDE trukks, Trukks somehow get cheaper, and gretchin cannot perform special mission actions, I don't really see a great future for the humble boy. Spending 240 points per slot before the Nob is simply too much for a unit that is now even easier to kill.

QUIZZ TIME for all !
-> How many boyz does it take to kill on primaris bike (lets consider the boyz are charging into said bike unit) ? The answer come with the realisation of useless boyz will really be this edition (I hope we all are wrong on this though)

Way too many. A full squad of boyz probably will barely kill a single bike.
They should not be 4W models, regular biker marines are 2W why the hell are the primaris versions twice that instead of +1?

Hey GW, make our Nob Bikers 4W then. Seriously, what the hell is this bs?

 addnid wrote:
QUIZZ TIME for all !
-> How many boyz does it take to kill on primaris bike (lets consider the boyz are charging into said bike unit) ? The answer come with the realisation of useless boyz will really be this edition (I hope we all are wrong on this though)

12 slugga boyz. Or, in other words, a mob of 30 slugga boyz will fail to kill a unit of 3 on average.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Way too many. A full squad of boyz probably will barely kill a single bike.
They should not be 4W models, regular biker marines are 2W why the hell are the primaris versions twice that instead of +1?

Hey GW, make our Nob Bikers 4W then. Seriously, what the hell is this bs?

Good god.

Now here's the fun part: will they be CHEAPER than Nob bikers?

That's horsegak. 4 wound models are so difficult to kill efficiently...

tulun wrote:
3) Saga of the beast shows they are pushing elite stuff. I think beyond that some of this stuff needed buffs, if Saga was built with 9th in mind, they are basically yelling at us "TAKE VEHICLES AND MEGA NOBS", among the actual good stuff from the book.

Looking at the war of the spider leaks, with entire plague fleets becoming obsolete with 9th, it's fairly safe to assume that PA being designed for 9th is marketing talk and nothing else.

Same goes for Engine War.
Mars got a canticle that becomes half-pointless in 9th. Units with heavy weapons ignore the movement penalty with this canticle and heavy weapons get +1str
In 9th, the heavy weapon bit is completely pointless. The only heavy weapons Admech have are on a vehicle (which will ignore it by default in 9th), has a rule to ignore it anyway, or is a useless weapon we dont even really use on our characters.

They also got like 3 ways to fall back and shoot with various units, mostly around the warlord. With the ability to shoot in combat that also becomes massively less valuable.

I agree with jidmah, its entirely marketing tossing BS out of their ass. PA's are not designed with 9th. The only evidence of this i see at all is the new Admech fliers have pure heavy weapons, but no ignore heavy rule. Thats it, 1 example showing its expecting 9th vs countless that shows they arent.

Fair. You can only hope they are building them with that in mind.

If I heard correctly on the warhammer daily, the outrider bikes also get advance and charge for free (Edit: White scars only).

Over/under on them being cheaper than nob bikers?

Also, they get an average of 6 attacks on the charge.