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It will be funny to see which gets fielded more, ass cents or these new outrider bikes ?
Both are 4 wounds toughness 5
bikes are faster (like 3,5 times faster...) but no 2+ armour save
bikes kill hordes in CC ass cents kill armoured stuff in CC
bikes can't climb buildings (unless... ?)
Ass cents have moar dakka

 addnid wrote:
It will be funny to see which gets fielded more, ass cents or these new outrider bikes ?
Both are 4 wounds toughness 5
bikes are faster (like 3,5 times faster...) but no 2+ armour save
bikes kill hordes in CC ass cents kill armoured stuff in CC
bikes can't climb buildings (unless... ?)
Ass cents have moar dakka

Keep in mind, Assault cents are mostly played in Ravenguard, and not all marines play Ravenguard. Ass cents are pretty slow unless you have deep strike fuckery to back them up.

And there's really nothing stopping you from mixing the two. These do certain things better.

It's crazy, you see people on reddit really saying "meh". Can you imagine us getting a unit like this and not instantly having a new competitive build?

tulun wrote:

 addnid wrote:
It will be funny to see which gets fielded more, ass cents or these new outrider bikes ?
Both are 4 wounds toughness 5
bikes are faster (like 3,5 times faster...) but no 2+ armour save
bikes kill hordes in CC ass cents kill armoured stuff in CC
bikes can't climb buildings (unless... ?)
Ass cents have moar dakka

Keep in mind, Assault cents are mostly played in Ravenguard, and not all marines play Ravenguard. Ass cents are pretty slow unless you have deep strike fuckery to back them up.

And there's really nothing stopping you from mixing the two. These do certain things better.

It's crazy, you see people on reddit really saying "meh". Can you imagine us getting a unit like this and not instantly having a new competitive build?

That was my general experience when I finally bit the bullet and started an Imperial army after 5 xenos armies. I had actual culture shock looking through my book and lost count of the number of times I had to stop and think, "I get all this for how many points?!"

There are so many things that are just flat out missing in non-Imperial armies that seem to go taken for granted by people who have never fielded a xenos army.

Local white scars player who only has white scars basically scoffed at the bikers.
I laughed in his face. Even without knowing the cost we already know these are vastly superior bikers to ours, 4W is an annoying threshold when its on more than 1-2 models, theyre fast, durable, and hit hard (we know they have 4 attacks minimum from shock assault and obligatory +1 from CCW).
He's basically upset they have no weapon options. Again, i laughed and said "yeah that must be horrible getting a new unit that has minimal to no options available" - this is coming from the army that gets +1AP and +1Dmg in the Combat Doctrine btw, and said player doesnt see why the rest of us view that as the most broken ability ever giving the entire army 2D combat knives at AP1 suddenly

The only non-xenos army ive ever had is Admech, and even a good deal of Admech stuff gets the stiff-arm for options. Its not as bad as most xenos, but its still there. The new units they got completely forbidding me from opting out of the melee + pistol combo on the alpha being a prime example (man thats annoying)

Marines have so much crap that they just ignore because their codex is so huge its either redundant, a tactic that player doesnt like, or both. Lot of xenos players use units theyre not really that fond of because their army does NOT WORK without said unit very well (i hate the SSAG, its kinda cheesy, but god orks are bad w/o it right now against a competent opponent)

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Marines have so much crap that they just ignore because their codex is so huge its either redundant, a tactic that player doesnt like, or both. Lot of xenos players use units theyre not really that fond of because their army does NOT WORK without said unit very well (i hate the SSAG, its kinda cheesy, but god orks are bad w/o it right now against a competent opponent)

Part of the problem is that because something like Primaris is CASUALLY so powerful, it sort of pigeon holes you into using stuff like the SSAG. It's hard to break out of it, because it exposes our lack of depth in our codex.

Like without the SSAG, I have no truly reliable way of killing monsters (as most of our anti heavy stuff is tagged for vehicles) , especially at that point / CP cost.

I'm actually fine with it, it's just insulting when say... a warbiker costs the same as a regular SM bike. You'd have a really hard time justifying that to me.

If they want SM stuff to be powerful, and Ork stuff to be weaker (for example), my stuff better damn well cost less points.

Precisely.

My problem is the bulk of who i face are xenos/chaos, theyre the ones that the SSAG just takes a massive dump on its not even funny. Marines of any flavor tend to just ignore everything i throw at them except the SSAG.
Never forget the time someone brought that Astraeus tank or whatever the primaris floaty superheavy is and my SSAG literally 1shot it lol.... did 36 damage to it in one attack (not two via strat, one attack) - that felt glorious.

I remember when i started playing i commonly had 2-3x the models my marine opponents did, and i wasnt spamming grots. Now i only have like ~40 more models, and theyre all grots. Bit of a problem there when the grots are useless outside being in the way and the non-grots are super easy to kill compared to the marines.

/rantoff

So, Thrakka has a D4 damage klaw, huh?

For the one who asked earlier?

4 wounds = 4 failed saves. A 3+ save makes two thirds, so, 12 wounds to cause 4.

T 5 v S 4 means wounding on a 5+ … to generate 12 wounds, you need 36 hits.

Hitting on a 3+, you need 54 attacks to score 36 hits.

At 3 attacks each, that's 18 Boys to drop one biker.

Boys are probably going to be 8 pts each, so that'd be 144 pts.

Bikes are probably 40 pts, maybe as high as 50.

That... seems like a rather stacked deck.

Wakshaani wrote:
For the one who asked earlier?

4 wounds = 4 failed saves. A 3+ save makes two thirds, so, 12 wounds to cause 4.

T 5 v S 4 means wounding on a 5+ … to generate 12 wounds, you need 36 hits.

Hitting on a 3+, you need 54 attacks to score 36 hits.

At 3 attacks each, that's 18 Boys to drop one biker.

Boys are probably going to be 8 pts each, so that'd be 144 pts.

Bikes are probably 40 pts, maybe as high as 50.

That... seems like a rather stacked deck.

Watch out, our trukk boys are so tough they'll fail to kill one 45 point bike!

which just feeds the fire that if boyz go up, theyre dead.
If i see them go up at all i wouldnt be surprised if every ork player suddenly completely abolishes boyz from their lists.

They havnt stated yet, but i would assume the special detachments cost 1cp (outrider, vanguard, etc). They dont refund it if the warlord is in there but its starting to make me think that i'd rather eat the 1-2 CP for those detachments and 100% abolish Troops than take grot tax, since we can assume theyre going up too despite being totally useless as anything but a speedbump

 Vineheart01 wrote:
which just feeds the fire that if boyz go up, theyre dead.
If i see them go up at all i wouldnt be surprised if every ork player suddenly completely abolishes boyz from their lists.

They havnt stated yet, but i would assume the special detachments cost 1cp (outrider, vanguard, etc). They dont refund it if the warlord is in there but its starting to make me think that i'd rather eat the 1-2 CP for those detachments and 100% abolish Troops than take grot tax, since we can assume theyre going up too despite being totally useless as anything but a speedbump

Grots will be good screens and good for these special actions and stuff, though. I think you could probably build a list without them, but even 4 ppm grots will probably have a place in a world with an average higher point cost across the board.

Like three 10 man grot squads in your bat I highly doubt will be a bad choice. They are speed bumps that protect your better stuff.

ive never had grots actually get in the way, they just die in massive droves that whatever the 3 layers of grots was protecting gets charged anyway. At the very best (for me) they took an extra unit shooting at them than expected, but thats entirely on my opponent's luck not mine.
Only real use i ever get out of them is DS denying and holding oddly positioned objectives that i dont want my gun-toting stuff sitting on for LoS reasons.

That´s the only use I get out of my grots too but too be honest I don´t expect more from a 3 point unit. For a measly 90 points I get 3 units to hold objectives all game and zone out DS. The board I tend to play on has lots of places to hide them out of LOS too so they hardly ever get removed.

They are pretty likely to go up by a point or two in 9th though.

I think I might not be bringing anything but the minimum amount of gretchin and leave objective capturing to meks or koptas.

 Jidmah wrote:
They are pretty likely to go up by a point or two in 9th though.

I think I might not be bringing anything but the minimum amount of gretchin and leave objective capturing to meks or koptas.

With DS we can get around fielding nomore than 3 minimal troops I think, will depend on how much meganobz cost, or indeed meks and such obsec infantry. Or perhaps 4 troops because one bataillon and one patrol. We will still need HQs won’t we?

 Jidmah wrote:
They are pretty likely to go up by a point or two in 9th though.

I think I might not be bringing anything but the minimum amount of gretchin and leave objective capturing to meks or koptas.

It's more likely to be 4 ppm. I can't see how you can justify nearly doubling the cost of a str 2, t2, 1 wound model with a joke of a gun.

It'll be hard to not take some troops, I can't see not fielding 3+ HQs. Outrider (and similar) only give 2 slots, I believe.

If GW adds more than 1 point to them I'm just going to ditch my Orks entirely for my DG. Even at 3 points they are absolutely useless at anything other than capping objectives and zoning. Paying 5 points for that is way too much, especially with special snowflake marines at only 20 points a piece.

well how many grotz to take down one primaris??

If boyz go to 8, they are shelved for 9th edition. At 7ppm I take mostly grotz. Occasionally i'll take a 30 man blob for da jump shenanigans but its rare due to the overwhelming fire power my opponents can bring.

What we know as of RIGHT NOW, is that Hordes are effectively dead. getting max # of shots for 11+ means boyz don't stand a chance. You could up the Ork armor save to 5+ with that +1pt and it wouldn't be worth 8ppm.

Onto Grotz. at the moment a grot is 3pts for a T2, S2, WS5+ 6+ save model. You could argue his amazing 4+ BS is why he is 3pts and not 2...if it wasn't for the fact that he can only equip a S3 pistol. For 1pt more, the IG player gets a model thats T3, S3, WS4+ BS4+ with a 5+ save and a range 24 rapid fire S3 weapon.

Maybe if we are lucky, the points increase will be to help make models more granular as they hinted at. If that is the case maybe Grotz stay at 3, boyz at 7 but some units like IG go up to 5. The only problem I see is the fact that they have openly admitted that Primaris are only getting a minor bump. Intercessors are going from 18 to 20 which is an 11% increase. If boyz do go to 8 that would be a 14% bump. And last time I checked, intercessors weren't exactly struggling to deal with Ork boyz.

SemperMortis wrote:
If boyz go to 8, they are shelved for 9th edition. At 7ppm I take mostly grotz. Occasionally i'll take a 30 man blob for da jump shenanigans but its rare due to the overwhelming fire power my opponents can bring.

What we know as of RIGHT NOW, is that Hordes are effectively dead. getting max # of shots for 11+ means boyz don't stand a chance. You could up the Ork armor save to 5+ with that +1pt and it wouldn't be worth 8ppm.

Onto Grotz. at the moment a grot is 3pts for a T2, S2, WS5+ 6+ save model. You could argue his amazing 4+ BS is why he is 3pts and not 2...if it wasn't for the fact that he can only equip a S3 pistol. For 1pt more, the IG player gets a model thats T3, S3, WS4+ BS4+ with a 5+ save and a range 24 rapid fire S3 weapon.

Maybe if we are lucky, the points increase will be to help make models more granular as they hinted at. If that is the case maybe Grotz stay at 3, boyz at 7 but some units like IG go up to 5. The only problem I see is the fact that they have openly admitted that Primaris are only getting a minor bump. Intercessors are going from 18 to 20 which is an 11% increase. If boyz do go to 8 that would be a 14% bump. And last time I checked, intercessors weren't exactly struggling to deal with Ork boyz.

Guard should be at least 6 points-that's the new cost of Cultists, who they're better than.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
which just feeds the fire that if boyz go up, theyre dead.
If i see them go up at all i wouldnt be surprised if every ork player suddenly completely abolishes boyz from their lists.

They havnt stated yet, but i would assume the special detachments cost 1cp (outrider, vanguard, etc). They dont refund it if the warlord is in there but its starting to make me think that i'd rather eat the 1-2 CP for those detachments and 100% abolish Troops than take grot tax, since we can assume theyre going up too despite being totally useless as anything but a speedbump

Someone, SOMEwhere once said that a Command Point was worth around 20-30 pts. If 3 units of Grots is 150 pts in 9th, and a troopless Detachment costs 3 CP, the math seems to be in favor of saying "So long ya gits!" and focusing just on the 'good stuff'.

Which'd be a real shame, but way worse if we just never see Boys on the table again, which, at this stage, looks to be the way to go unless something *massive* changes. Terrain won't save them, blasts just *erase* them, and a cost increase just leaves them unplayable no matter how thematic it is.

And that's heartbreaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
If boyz go to 8, they are shelved for 9th edition. At 7ppm I take mostly grotz. Occasionally i'll take a 30 man blob for da jump shenanigans but its rare due to the overwhelming fire power my opponents can bring.

What we know as of RIGHT NOW, is that Hordes are effectively dead. getting max # of shots for 11+ means boyz don't stand a chance. You could up the Ork armor save to 5+ with that +1pt and it wouldn't be worth 8ppm.

Onto Grotz. at the moment a grot is 3pts for a T2, S2, WS5+ 6+ save model. You could argue his amazing 4+ BS is why he is 3pts and not 2...if it wasn't for the fact that he can only equip a S3 pistol. For 1pt more, the IG player gets a model thats T3, S3, WS4+ BS4+ with a 5+ save and a range 24 rapid fire S3 weapon.

Maybe if we are lucky, the points increase will be to help make models more granular as they hinted at. If that is the case maybe Grotz stay at 3, boyz at 7 but some units like IG go up to 5. The only problem I see is the fact that they have openly admitted that Primaris are only getting a minor bump. Intercessors are going from 18 to 20 which is an 11% increase. If boyz do go to 8 that would be a 14% bump. And last time I checked, intercessors weren't exactly struggling to deal with Ork boyz.

Guard should be at least 6 points-that's the new cost of Cultists, who they're better than.

That wouldn't be very fair to the Cultists, who are nowhere near as good as Guardsmen. My gut's telling me that the IG go to 8 pts, as do Boys.

But, we'll see.

SemperMortis wrote:

Maybe if we are lucky, the points increase will be to help make models more granular as they hinted at. If that is the case maybe Grotz stay at 3, boyz at 7 but some units like IG go up to 5. The only problem I see is the fact that they have openly admitted that Primaris are only getting a minor bump. Intercessors are going from 18 to 20 which is an 11% increase. If boyz do go to 8 that would be a 14% bump. And last time I checked, intercessors weren't exactly struggling to deal with Ork boyz.

Actually they went from 17 to 20 so 8pts boyz ratio would actually improve slightly but not enough in 8th ed and even less in 9th. But gw and playtesters have agenda of killing hordes and aren"t subtle about it

RedNoak wrote:
well how many grotz to take down one primaris??

Well, let's see. 2 wound sneeded, but they save on a 3+. so you have to inflict 6.

To inflict 6 with SHOOTING, where you wound on a 5+, you need 9 hits. To score 9 hits In SHOOTING on a 4+, so you need 18 Grot blasters to drop a Primaris.

To inflict 6 with MELEE, where you wound on a 6, you need 36 hits. To score 36 hits on a 5+, you need 108 Grots.

Doesn't come up often, but … yikes.

Wakshaani wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
well how many grotz to take down one primaris??

Well, let's see. 2 wound sneeded, but they save on a 3+. so you have to inflict 6.

To inflict 6 with SHOOTING, where you wound on a 5+, you need 9 hits. To score 9 hits In SHOOTING on a 4+, so you need 18 Grot blasters to drop a Primaris.

To inflict 6 with MELEE, where you wound on a 6, you need 36 hits. To score 36 hits on a 5+, you need 108 Grots.

Doesn't come up often, but … yikes.

Worse than that. 9 hits wounding on 5+ is 3 wounds. So you need 36 grot blasters to drop a primaris.

Yep I also think guards will go up in huge way, but mainly for one reason: depending on how a guard unit is equipped, it takes a long time to play it (different weapons). Also orders, for example making the unit move again, are also time consuming. GW wants to speed games up, so they will deter astra militarum players from fielding many squads, and push them towards tanks. I may be totally wrong, we'll see. I have a guard army (as a "side army"), glad i didn't invest in many infantry squads...

I'd say 7 points though, 8 sounds like a lot (double the current cost)

Does anybody play and have some new experiences with SotB? Or are everybody stucked on discussing partial parametrs of the non ork units suplemented with pure guesses /tips / wishes in mostly unknown system that will be revealed no earlier than about 4-5 weeks?

tneva82 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Maybe if we are lucky, the points increase will be to help make models more granular as they hinted at. If that is the case maybe Grotz stay at 3, boyz at 7 but some units like IG go up to 5. The only problem I see is the fact that they have openly admitted that Primaris are only getting a minor bump. Intercessors are going from 18 to 20 which is an 11% increase. If boyz do go to 8 that would be a 14% bump. And last time I checked, intercessors weren't exactly struggling to deal with Ork boyz.

Actually they went from 17 to 20 so 8pts boyz ratio would actually improve slightly but not enough in 8th ed and even less in 9th. But gw and playtesters have agenda of killing hordes and aren"t subtle about it

None of that changes the fact that 8 point boyz are likely to be worthless to orks though. I'm fairly sure I'll try to fit my entire buggy list into a single outrider detachment if they do that.

Same.
I have a feeling though the fact that they are "better" in melee than marines will continue to be a factor making them cost so much.
A boy has the same attack profile as a primaris marine, 2 attacks at S4 with +1 from choppa +1 from 20+ boyz, while the primaris has 2 + 1 from Shock Assault (which i still say is BS doesnt get denied if they GET charged) and they both hit on 3s.
The ork will have more hits/wounds than the primaris! Nevermind the rerolls backing it up or the armor keeping it alive nah thats not important.

Would boyz find a use if they did go up, but they changed the heavy weapons to be 3 to a squad instead of 3 per 10?
I find i do that alot with Admech where i'd rather field 2x5 than 10 because i get 2 special weapons per unit, or 3 at a 10man.

And now to something completely different.

For those of you who still use legends, I'm currently looking at the big mek on warbike with da cleverest boss, killsaw and brutal but kunning to create a second Killa Klaw boss who doubles as KFF protection turn one. Has anyone had any experience with this?

Well today topic is overwatch. Pretty much last chance for boyz to get any good news