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gungo wrote:
Doesn’t dark angels have bonuses to overwatch too? There might be some incentive to certain units to use it especially if they can hit on overwatch on a 4 or 5+..

It seems like some terrain already give you an option to effectively do that already as well, so depending on how widespread that terrain trait is, it could make that even more redundant than it already is.

theyre making it sound like theres a ton of terrain types that you actually DO need to keep track of, unlike in the past where the rules beyond cover were sorta ignored/forgotten.
Meaning i might just print off a bunch of terrain stat cards to mount on terrain pieces so we remember WTF is what lol

It's up to players to determine.

And dark angel, iron hand etc bonus likely gets rewritten but how. For all we know it could give overwatch ability as a whole(some units will get it anyway). GW being GW might even be on random dice roll. Roll a dice and on 4+ you get overwatch or something.

We'll see.

Either way boyz shrug at this, gorkanauts, dreadnoughts and meganobz thank.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
theyre making it sound like theres a ton of terrain types that you actually DO need to keep track of, unlike in the past where the rules beyond cover were sorta ignored/forgotten.
Meaning i might just print off a bunch of terrain stat cards to mount on terrain pieces so we remember WTF is what lol

I'm just gonna have a fistful of coins, with a note as to what each coin represents. I already use coins for objective markers so it's not much to adapt to. And it gives me a use for my huge jar of pennies

Look out sir and some info about multi charge.

Your character has to be within 3” of a vehicle or monster OR 3 models to get coverage.

If they are the closest visible model you can still shoot.

For multi charge, you have to be able to reach any target you declared otherwise it fails.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/18/faction-focus-adepta-sororitasgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-4/

Just for clarification it’s any other friendly UNITS that contain 3 or more models...

So it’s not just being near 3 models you need to have 3 models in the same unit...

Gretchin still sounds like they have a good use depending on point cost.

Multi charges are going to be much harder to pull off.. which makes melee less useful.. I realize overwatch changes is helpful to melee... mostly for the glass canon type units...but I still think there is way more negative changes to melee that still benefit shooting type lists.

Any changes to 10+W characters?

gungo wrote:
Just for clarification it’s any other friendly UNITS that contain 3 or more models...

So it’s not just being near 3 models you need to have 3 models in the same unit...

Gretchin still sounds like they have a good use depending on point cost.

Multi charges are going to be much harder to pull off.. which makes melee less useful.. I realize overwatch changes is helpful to melee... mostly for the glass canon type units...but I still think there is way more negative changes to melee that still benefit shooting type lists.

Though if you kill grots then bye bye protection. Also makes common tactic of SSAG top of ruin harder generally there's limited # of units you can cram there. If you only can get one unit there easy to remove. Here there are some ruins with barely 40mm base room tower. SSAG was one very common model to put there. Now that means you are free target.

 Emicrania wrote:
Any changes to 10+W characters?

Not that we can tell so far.

Overall this seems like a great change. Orks basically had no ways of targeting character FLAGRANTLY in the open. It was stupid. Now, this makes sense.

This does make our SSAG a bit easier to root out, though, but take the good with the bad. if your SSAG is chilling by himself with no one nearby, I don't see why it shouldn't be targetable.

Yeah i feel like that character rule is design specifically for SSAG killing.
He needs to be parked near a vehicle or big blob of stuff now, else 1 gun takesout grots, other just takes out him

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah i feel like that character rule is design specifically for SSAG killing.
He needs to be parked near a vehicle or big blob of stuff now, else 1 gun takesout grots, other just takes out him

Park some Mek guns nearby, or a Trukk. Have some grots hidden behind obscuring terrain with your ssag poking it's nose out. If there is other stuff still closer, he's still protected.

Then they have to waste their guns shooting off a trukk instead of shooting your Mork.

I honestly think this isn't going to be that big of a deal. We'll adapt. We have way more issues with enemy characters basically being untargetable by our guns.

Edit: Or do something like:

10 Kommandos + SSAG and grot in a trukk. Put it near / in terrain with a +1 armour save from shooting.

When trukk pops, loot it with kommandos, deploy the SSAG and kommandos in cover. You now have 10 power armour Orks (less casualties) protecting your SSAG.

We have tricks to keep our stuff alive

Assuming da bommer get's to benefit from the periscope, you can also use the gunwagon to protect your SSAG.

... or as single kopta

 Jidmah wrote:
Assuming da bommer get's to benefit from the periscope, you can also use the gunwagon to protect your SSAG.

... or as single kopta

Hell, Mek Gunz may be our new SSAG Mek screen at this point.

Boy if smashas get the blast weapon rule and no crazy point increase, that extra speahead of grots specialt klan is looking way to sexy to be ignored.

 Jidmah wrote:
Assuming da bommer get's to benefit from the periscope, you can also use the gunwagon to protect your SSAG.

... or as single kopta

I've been wondering, if Patrols are 1 CP to add in, I'd totally consider a patrol of Evil Suns with 5 Deff Koptas.

With functionally 17 CP in my more vehicle list (3-4 more than now), you could do drive by rocket rounds, where 10 rockets moves 23" in position, than falls back up to 23" behind obscuring terrain.

That could easily protect our SSAG and be annoying as gak. Can't even be tagged with Tremor shells. With proper positioning of a weird boy too, you could even give it full re-rolls, which would be a solid output over a few turns.

 Grimskul wrote:

gungo wrote:
Doesn’t dark angels have bonuses to overwatch too? There might be some incentive to certain units to use it especially if they can hit on overwatch on a 4 or 5+..

It seems like some terrain already give you an option to effectively do that already as well, so depending on how widespread that terrain trait is, it could make that even more redundant than it already is.

No, Dark Angels chapter tactic lets you reroll 1's if you stand still.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Assuming da bommer get's to benefit from the periscope, you can also use the gunwagon to protect your SSAG.

... or as single kopta

Hell, Mek Gunz may be our new SSAG Mek screen at this point.

Yep just park a mek gun under the ruin floor where you put your SSAG. Though that won’t work with very high floors. Though a single mek gun is ez to take out.
I think we I will just play SSAG now, no more SAG. Because HQ slots have become less available. I was using too often these dudes anyway so I don’t mind at all.

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Assuming da bommer get's to benefit from the periscope, you can also use the gunwagon to protect your SSAG.

... or as single kopta

I've been wondering, if Patrols are 1 CP to add in, I'd totally consider a patrol of Evil Suns with 5 Deff Koptas.

With functionally 17 CP in my more vehicle list (3-4 more than now), you could do drive by rocket rounds, where 10 rockets moves 23" in position, than falls back up to 23" behind obscuring terrain.

That could easily protect our SSAG and be annoying as gak. Can't even be tagged with Tremor shells. With proper positioning of a weird boy too, you could even give it full re-rolls, which would be a solid output over a few turns.

Why evil suns though?

I just realized that koptas can shoot their rokkits in combat because they are vehicles

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Assuming da bommer get's to benefit from the periscope, you can also use the gunwagon to protect your SSAG.

... or as single kopta

I've been wondering, if Patrols are 1 CP to add in, I'd totally consider a patrol of Evil Suns with 5 Deff Koptas.

With functionally 17 CP in my more vehicle list (3-4 more than now), you could do drive by rocket rounds, where 10 rockets moves 23" in position, than falls back up to 23" behind obscuring terrain.

That could easily protect our SSAG and be annoying as gak. Can't even be tagged with Tremor shells. With proper positioning of a weird boy too, you could even give it full re-rolls, which would be a solid output over a few turns.

Why evil suns though?
N
I just realized that koptas can shoot their rokkits in combat because they are vehicles

That's handy, as they're actually fairly pump in combat.

 Jidmah wrote:

Why evil suns though?

I just realized that koptas can shoot their rokkits in combat because they are vehicles

Yeah, Deff Koptas are lookin' pretty decent, even the Big Shoota variety.

Why Evil Suns, though:

1) Advance and Shoot without penalty. You auto advance 7", so get up to 23" with the movement bonus.

2) Drive by Krumpin' is Evil Suns (and speed freeks) locked. So in order to fall back and hide behind terrain, I need to be ES. 1 CP only too.

3) Visions in the smoke is ES locked.

Honestly, I could see a very good list which takes Evil Suns vehicles -- Killa Kans, Da Boomer, Deff Koptas, maybe even a Mork. Try to fish for that WC9 cast, but worse comes to worse, you get a WC6 and have a few good viable targets. Visions works in both fightng and shooting, so Killa Kans look decent even with a 5+ to hit (which you could improve to 4+ if you take a Waaagh banner). Support this with your usual bag of Deathskulls.

Again, this assumes that patrols are cheap, which I sort of feel they need to be, otherwise I'm not sure people would take them over Supreme detachments and the like.

Ghaz's status as a monster now looks a bit better under the new rules. He can shelter Makari quite effectively.

 r_squared wrote:
Ghaz's status as a monster now looks a bit better under the new rules. He can shelter Makari quite effectively.

Mate, with Makari's 2++ I'd prefer if Ghaz was sheltering behind him. And when I say sheltering I mean holding him up to catch bullets like a shield.

cody.d. wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Ghaz's status as a monster now looks a bit better under the new rules. He can shelter Makari quite effectively.

Mate, with Makari's 2++ I'd prefer if Ghaz was sheltering behind him. And when I say sheltering I mean holding him up to catch bullets like a shield.

You're probably right.

I do think his max 4 wound and 4++ with the 6+++ from Makari himself, I think the new edition may see Ghaz see more playtime on the table.

 Emicrania wrote:
Any changes to 10+W characters?

Not yet but 18+ wounds is worse for targeting


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Just for clarification it’s any other friendly UNITS that contain 3 or more models...

So it’s not just being near 3 models you need to have 3 models in the same unit...

Gretchin still sounds like they have a good use depending on point cost.

Multi charges are going to be much harder to pull off.. which makes melee less useful.. I realize overwatch changes is helpful to melee... mostly for the glass canon type units...but I still think there is way more negative changes to melee that still benefit shooting type lists.

Though if you kill grots then bye bye protection. Also makes common tactic of SSAG top of ruin harder generally there's limited # of units you can cram there. If you only can get one unit there easy to remove. Here there are some ruins with barely 40mm base room tower. SSAG was one very common model to put there. Now that means you are free target.

thats always been the case with grot shield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 r_squared wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
Ghaz's status as a monster now looks a bit better under the new rules. He can shelter Makari quite effectively.

Mate, with Makari's 2++ I'd prefer if Ghaz was sheltering behind him. And when I say sheltering I mean holding him up to catch bullets like a shield.

You're probably right.

I do think his max 4 wound and 4++ with the 6+++ from Makari himself, I think the new edition may see Ghaz see more playtime on the table.

He still needs to adv and charge w his waaagh

tulun wrote:
Honestly, I could see a very good list which takes Evil Suns vehicles -- Killa Kans, Da Boomer, Deff Koptas, maybe even a Mork. Try to fish for that WC9 cast, but worse comes to worse, you get a WC6 and have a few good viable targets. Visions works in both fightng and shooting, so Killa Kans look decent even with a 5+ to hit (which you could improve to 4+ if you take a Waaagh banner). Support this with your usual bag of Deathskulls.

Again, this assumes that patrols are cheap, which I sort of feel they need to be, otherwise I'm not sure people would take them over Supreme detachments and the like.

From flipping between ES and DS for my buggies a lot, I don't think ES is worth it unless you want to deep strike. All the re-rolls add up to so much extra damage over the course of a game, and seizures is just as powerful as visions, but only requires WC7 - which is already quite unreliable in vehicles lists since you are likely to not have any cast bonus.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
Honestly, I could see a very good list which takes Evil Suns vehicles -- Killa Kans, Da Boomer, Deff Koptas, maybe even a Mork. Try to fish for that WC9 cast, but worse comes to worse, you get a WC6 and have a few good viable targets. Visions works in both fightng and shooting, so Killa Kans look decent even with a 5+ to hit (which you could improve to 4+ if you take a Waaagh banner). Support this with your usual bag of Deathskulls.

Again, this assumes that patrols are cheap, which I sort of feel they need to be, otherwise I'm not sure people would take them over Supreme detachments and the like.

From flipping between ES and DS for my buggies a lot, I don't think ES is worth it unless you want to deep strike. All the re-rolls add up to so much extra damage over the course of a game, and seizures is just as powerful as visions, but only requires WC7 - which is already quite unreliable in vehicles lists since you are likely to not have any cast bonus.

I don't get why most of you here are so positive about seizures. For me the combination of the 18' range and the Warp charge 7 means you need boyz around your weirdboy as well as getting close to your target (or it is just 1/2 chance to go off). If it was 24' like the tyranid version of "-1 to hit a target" (which also is just WC6 by the way) then yes, it would be that great. Perhaps I play against armies which really feth orks up at 18 range, si it may just be a meta question really, dunno. I mean it is far from being a bad psy power. It is worth taking if you have 3 weirdboyz for sure. Or if you have no other purpose for da jump, but i can't really imagine a situation where that would be really

Smite also is 18" and outside of fists there are no other powers worth casting in a vehicle list, and you still need at least 5 HQ to get your CP.
First turn you either have the weirdboy jump itself into range of some expensive and debuff, or better have the fist weird boyz jump you and then smite as well. It's not reliable, but when it does hit, the impact is massive.

With 9th, I probably would be dropping weird boyz completely, just keeping warboss, wartrike and one of the KFF meks.

 Jidmah wrote:
Smite also is 18" and outside of fists there are no other powers worth casting in a vehicle list, and you still need at least 5 HQ to get your CP.
First turn you either have the weirdboy jump itself into range of some expensive and debuff, or better have the fist weird boyz jump you and then smite as well. It's not reliable, but when it does hit, the impact is massive.

With 9th, I probably would be dropping weird boyz completely, just keeping warboss, wartrike and one of the KFF meks.

Yep so combo with da jump (which i would never do as i always need to jump something else). Smite is easier to get off against a no psycher army.

Ah indeed I was also thinking I'd be probably just taking one weirdboy when 9th drops, but perhaps none at all depending on their point cost. Glad to see I am not alone in this weirdboy sadness (love the lore for these nutters)

Well, the main issue is that weird boyz are a support character for infantry units. Should nobz in bonebreakers or boyz in battlewagons somehow become a great addition to my vehicle list, weird boyz will go right back in.

From what I know now, all the infantry I will be running are either 3 units of gretchin for a battalion or maybe even none at all, because I can fit my entire army into a single outrider detachment.
It's almost as if that detachment was meant for my army, with 2 slots for the Morkanaut and da boomer, 2 slots for burna bommers and 6 slots for KBB, scrapjet, SJD, warbikers and koptas, the only thing that I would have to cut would be HQs.

And I'm still planning on bringing that Thrakka+Makari+Badrukk+Painboy goff supreme command detachment to mess with my opponents

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, the main issue is that weird boyz are a support character for infantry units. Should nobz in bonebreakers or boyz in battlewagons somehow become a great addition to my vehicle list, weird boyz will go right back in.

From what I know now, all the infantry I will be running are either 3 units of gretchin for a battalion or maybe even none at all, because I can fit my entire army into a single outrider detachment.
It's almost as if that detachment was meant for my army, with 2 slots for the Morkanaut and da boomer, 2 slots for burna bommers and 6 slots for KBB, scrapjet, SJD, warbikers and koptas, the only thing that I would have to cut would be HQs.

And I'm still planning on bringing that Thrakka+Makari+Badrukk+Painboy goff supreme command detachment to mess with my opponents

Now THAT is Ork planning right