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pfffftt hahaha hit 5 times in overwatch with the KMZ? thats just dirty.

Heavy vehicle lists really dont need the SSAG i agree. I've been running a Grot Squad blob of Killakanz w/ Dirty Gubbinz followed by an 8man KMB-spamming Grottank squad, all sitting with an KFF mek between them.
Its just SO MUCH ANTI TANK like holy crap. Nevermind that i still have a mork toting around in the deathskullz detachment lol. I've had multiple games where by turn2 i was using KMBs to kill primaris marines....because there was nothing left to shoot that wasnt across the board from me lol

My friends seem to always underestimate the Mork's shooting, even post-sparkly bitz. Since that kustom job showed up i have never gotten the mork in melee....ever.... not even once. Its just that lethal in shooting and generally has enough crap around it where nothing charges IT very easily and by the time it gets across the table its killed everything near it before it could charge.

tulun wrote:
I actually think the Wartrike is looking better in 9th. It can shoot its guns in CC now if it gets tagged -- and with the kustom job, guaranteeing 6 Skorcha shots is really nice. On paper its only 2.5 shots more on average, but consistency is really underrated in an army like Orks.

The nice thing too is that I really think it only needs a Warlord trait to be decent in CC. It already has 5 base attacks, and re-rolls to wounds. If it's Deathskull, it can even fish a low damage roll, has a T6 body with a 6++, and if you really want, you can give it a 5+++.

From playing it over two dozen times now with pretty much every combination of clan, relics and traits, I can tell you that the simple truth is that the warbike is not meant for melee. The snagga klaw is just too weak, and just like a warboss or daemon prince, the trike will simply die the second it can be shot by big guns, no matter how many relics, traits or stratagems you pile onto it.
The only way to get 120 points worth out of it is running it as a deff skullz gunboat that provides advance&charge auras where needed. Do not make it your warlord under any circumstances, as that just paints a giant bull's eye on it and none of the traits actually make it stand out at anything. Make sure to keep your character protection at all costs and either pick out tanks to shoot with the twin melta(tripple re-rolls!) or clear out infantry with skorcha and boomsticks. The only charges it should be making is when it can pick off a valuable support character (anything tougher than a librarian is likely to fail), when finishing units off with ~3 wounds left or when you want to shut down a unit that can't fight back, like vehicles. Charging it into something like a unit of intercessors or a techmarine gunner can quickly cost you the trike. I usually keep the nitro grot to either quickly switch sides or to deny/capture an objective.
When running it this way gork's roar becomes an obvious choice, as it allows you to get trouble damage dice more often, and the skorcha reliably allows you to take out units of 10 chaff models.

i mean, Might is Right or Brutal yet Kunning (or whichever it was that was the rerolls i always get them confused) does make the Wartrike's melee a proper threat, but since we dont have an extra warlord trait strat like you said he will have a massive bullseye on his forehead for Slay the Warlord, as even fully decked out at T7, 4+, 5++, 5+++ he still dies laughably quick and his giant base makes it nigh impossible to keep him protected after combat starts. Its just simply not worth it.

i need to get more buggies so i can run a proper buggy list. I just use my Snazzwagon as a third KBB so i got a full trio of them, but only singles of the rest.

Yeah that’s fair.

It’s a real shame you shouldn’t really use the bike Mek either, as that on paper looks pretty good.

But if they don’t update points for 9th, I honestly think people are going to start denying legends choices, even in friendlies.

Also, if they don’t give us a warboss that can take a kill saw...

So while I know he'll never be worth his points, what compliments the stompa best? I recently picked one up and I'm dumb excited to try it out... get angry it did nothing, and never play it again

The "best" way (very loose term there) to use a stompa is to force people to shoot it, since unless you are facing a TON of anti-vehicle it wont go down that quick.
You want other T8 stuff to go with it and house your squishies, dont even bring T6/7 vehicles. Render everything not meant for T8 ineffective so while they'll still hurt you, they will have half or more of their guns plink off and do next to nothing.

Most things meant to hurt a T8 thing are meant to take down a 14-18W model, 24 at the most. Stompa has 40, so it isnt dying in 1 round, if it can at least completely waste all the non-nasty guns in the process it'll feel a bit more useful.

Still sucks ass in the end sadly lol. It simply doesnt do enough damage for its cost to make up for missing half your army.

 r_squared wrote:
[

I hope so, the footslogging Warboss has been neglected for so long, it would be nice to see them back on the table again. Perhaps a new multi part, non-named Warboss model should be in the offing?

I'm going to say that being able to shoot in close combat has if anything made the footboss less interesting.

Now the Warboss on Warbike can potentially shoot a Kombi Skorcha + 6 Dakkaguns.

That's 5.5 strength 5 hits even in close combat in the shooting phase. It will also be interesting to see if the new vehicle movement rules effectively allow him to disengage from combat. Paired with a Wartrike that basically already has a Kombi Skorcha that doubles as a meltagun.

I'm thinking that bikes are going to be pretty stupid in this edition, especially with all these new primaris bikers.

Boss on Bike is a Bike, not a Vehicle or Monster which are the only things mentioned to get that shoot in combat ability.
The Wartrike can shoot in combat though.

 Tomsug wrote:


Btw interesting topic. Because PK have a D3 dmg, Hit them harder has an intereresting use while killing Termies with 2 wounds. You waste a lot of damage output but you make you sure, that each lost save = killed Terminator. I can' t do do math, but it seems 50-70% more killed T' s.

+1 damage would only give you 2 damage 33% of the time, the remaining 66% being overkill.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The "best" way (very loose term there) to use a stompa is to force people to shoot it, since unless you are facing a TON of anti-vehicle it wont go down that quick.
You want other T8 stuff to go with it and house your squishies, dont even bring T6/7 vehicles. Render everything not meant for T8 ineffective so while they'll still hurt you, they will have half or more of their guns plink off and do next to nothing.

Most things meant to hurt a T8 thing are meant to take down a 14-18W model, 24 at the most. Stompa has 40, so it isnt dying in 1 round, if it can at least completely waste all the non-nasty guns in the process it'll feel a bit more useful.

Still sucks ass in the end sadly lol. It simply doesnt do enough damage for its cost to make up for missing half your army.

I must be facing spectacular AT then. 3 games out of 4 it's been dead on T1. One time it survived with 4 wounds largely because most of army was in reserve(so was my. Stompa was nearly my entire army on board T1...). Albeit that was about worst possible match up with some weirdo chaos dreads doing something like 4d3 shots hitting on 2+ for MW...

Hence the caveat i mentioned "unless you are facing a TON of anti-vehicle"

Yeah its not difficult to kill in a single round, im saying most people DONT have THAT much of it. Theres a point where if you have so much anti-tank you probably have absolute garbage for anti-numbers and just get board controlled to death.

Theres also just mega D6 luck that kills it. Theoretically it only takes 7 lascannons to hit it if they all roll 6's (with 2 wounds to spare so one can be a 4 or 2 can be 5s) and you dont KFF save any of them, and thats not really a lot of lascannons.
Just feeds into the usual dumbster fire that is anything big and stompy in 8th. Bigger they are the harder they fall. I hope its remedied a bit in 9th, big things swing way too sharply between insanely hard to remove and....laughably easy to delete instantly.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Boss on Bike is a Bike, not a Vehicle or Monster which are the only things mentioned to get that shoot in combat ability.
The Wartrike can shoot in combat though.

Never mind then, that's trash. Especially with overwatch being removed.

One thing that always bugged me about the Wartrike is his massive speed difference compared to literally everything else. He has a fuel mixa grot for 6" run, but it seems pointless if you're trying to get, for example, walkers into combat. 20" is quite different from 6+3.5". It would be way more useful to have that aura on a walker like a Gorkanaut.

tneva82 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The "best" way (very loose term there) to use a stompa is to force people to shoot it, since unless you are facing a TON of anti-vehicle it wont go down that quick.
You want other T8 stuff to go with it and house your squishies, dont even bring T6/7 vehicles. Render everything not meant for T8 ineffective so while they'll still hurt you, they will have half or more of their guns plink off and do next to nothing.

Most things meant to hurt a T8 thing are meant to take down a 14-18W model, 24 at the most. Stompa has 40, so it isnt dying in 1 round, if it can at least completely waste all the non-nasty guns in the process it'll feel a bit more useful.

Still sucks ass in the end sadly lol. It simply doesnt do enough damage for its cost to make up for missing half your army.

I must be facing spectacular AT then. 3 games out of 4 it's been dead on T1. One time it survived with 4 wounds largely because most of army was in reserve(so was my. Stompa was nearly my entire army on board T1...). Albeit that was about worst possible match up with some weirdo chaos dreads doing something like 4d3 shots hitting on 2+ for MW...

Most enemies are faced with either destroying buggies, planes or the naut. The buggies are easier to kill and do almost as much damage, if not more than the naut. Therefore, people that have faced my army multiple times tend to focus on those, as they get more out of their S7 and S8 weapons when shooting buggies. Not to mention that the naut loses absolutely no shooting even when degraded to one wound.
In addition, I also have a unit of warbikers or MANz in my opponent's face T1, also reducing the options which can focus the naut.
It's all about target saturation, as it always has been.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:
One thing that always bugged me about the Wartrike is his massive speed difference compared to literally everything else. He has a fuel mixa grot for 6" run, but it seems pointless if you're trying to get, for example, walkers into combat. 20" is quite different from 6+3.5". It would be way more useful to have that aura on a walker like a Gorkanaut.

That speed helps a lot with the T1 warbiker charge though, as it can easily follow the unit driving 28" and get into melta-range of something.

I thought warbikers were terrible, though.

They are way too expensive, but they do their job of disrupting your opponent's game plan and preventing them from moving into midfield. I play them regularly alongside my buggies since they are more reliable than da jumped MANz.
From a gut feeling, I'd say the unit should be roughly 60 points less than they are now to make them a decent choice.

Warbikers in a list in which everything is T5-8 aren't terrible at all, just a unit with a niche role and a bit overcosted.

I also hate jumping/tellyporting manz because if they aren't evil sunz odds that they succed the charge are too low for the unit's points cost, if they are evil sunz they might be forced to assault chaff and be wiped out the following turn. I prefer embarking them in a list full of armored stuff. The only unit I'd deepstrike right now is the Gorkanaut.

I'm mostly oriented towards Tin Eadz or Deffskullz right now, which may favor them a lot: 5-6 Tin Headz meganobz in Da Forktress, eventually enhanced by the stratagem that adds +1Damage are no joke, but also deathskullz bonuses upgrade them somehow as the obj sec ability, 6++ and the triple re-roll is quite something.

Well I've long been of the opinion that warbikers should be 19ppm and Nobz on bikes 26ppm, so if 9th rolls around and both those units just stay at their current points then we're stellar. Let's hope we get somewhere close to that.

BTW, I assume warbikers will be taken in squads of 10 now with the blast rules as going for the last 2 seem to bring an unnecessary risk. Question is, is it better to go for 10 footslogging nobz or 9 and a single ammo runt?

I use mostly shooting list with one bat of evil sunz with moto warboss and 2x 5MANz and they are very reliable a working combination.

1MANz and Boss sitting in cover. Second MANz waiting in Tellyporta.

Mostly 2 scenarios appear:
1. Enemy is short range (Bolter...) / melee unit. Needs to get closer facing my SMG etc. But he knows that there are somewhere 5MANz who can slay the Landrider or squad of termies. So he can' t move all of his units full forward. He needs to keep some strong units behind.

I shoot down the forward marching part of his army and than Da Jump and Tellyport (plus drive on moto over the board) and at least one unit of MANz and Boss get to CC on T2, where they want.

Or marching army is hard as nutz so one Telyporta and second advance+charge thanks to warboss.

2. Long range army with screen - shoot down the screen and da Jump + tellyport etc as in the scenario 1.

2 units of evil sunz have pretty high chance to pass at least one charge. And 5 MANz with Hit ' em harder and get stuck in Ladz slay the knight...

PiñaColada wrote:
Well I've long been of the opinion that warbikers should be 19ppm and Nobz on bikes 26ppm, so if 9th rolls around and both those units just stay at their current points then we're stellar. Let's hope we get somewhere close to that.

BTW, I assume warbikers will be taken in squads of 10 now with the blast rules as going for the last 2 seem to bring an unnecessary risk. Question is, is it better to go for 10 footslogging nobz or 9 and a single ammo runt?

Honestly, I probably wont be giving blast too much though in that regard. If you get first turn, they are in combat T1 anyways, if you don't just hide them out line of sight - with 28" you have plenty of spare movement to drive around stuff.

 Jidmah wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
Well I've long been of the opinion that warbikers should be 19ppm and Nobz on bikes 26ppm, so if 9th rolls around and both those units just stay at their current points then we're stellar. Let's hope we get somewhere close to that.

BTW, I assume warbikers will be taken in squads of 10 now with the blast rules as going for the last 2 seem to bring an unnecessary risk. Question is, is it better to go for 10 footslogging nobz or 9 and a single ammo runt?

Honestly, I probably wont be giving blast too much though in that regard. If you get first turn, they are in combat T1 anyways, if you don't just hide them out line of sight - with 28" you have plenty of spare movement to drive around stuff.

I get what you're saying, but on the flip side, are those two extra models worth the potential risk? If I get T1, then yeah, who cares? But IMO the weakness of the bikes has always been when you don't, can't give 'em -1 to hit and they're tough to hide completely. A single Leman Russ battlecannon will hit em pretty hard, I'm still not entirely sure how to interpret how the blast rules work on multiple dice but Reece mentioned a Wyvern getting 24 shots on a big unit (meaning all the dice max out). A night spinner would probably do pretty well against them too.

Again, bikes aren't the biggest issue with blast weapons, but I'm unsure if I need those last two bikes. It's pretty matchup dependent but I don't think I want to give my opponent the satisfaction of maxing shots.

The risk is near zero. The difference between 10 warbikers getting hit by a self-buffing tank commander with relic gun (average 8 shots) or 12 being hit by the same is two warbikers (5 instead of 3), less if you gain cover, a KFF or -1 to hit.

It also means that they are shooting a big blast weapons that can one-shot a naut at warbikers instead of any of the vehicles, walker or planes, which is the whole point of bringing warbikers in the first place.

I think the panic towards blast weapons is unjustified, as many of those guns do not want to shoot infantry blobs, no matter whether they get d6 or 6 shots. It doesn't suddenly make those guns great at killing infantry, it just makes those weapons more flexible.
The only guns worrying me are those which were already great at killing hordes despite having random shots like the TFC or mortars. Let's hope those get a hefty price hike.

 Jidmah wrote:
The risk is near zero. The difference between 10 warbikers getting hit by a self-buffing tank commander with relic gun (average 8 shots) or 12 being hit by the same is two warbikers (5 instead of 3), less if you gain cover, a KFF or -1 to hit.

It also means that they are shooting a big blast weapons that can one-shot a naut at warbikers instead of any of the vehicles, walker or planes, which is the whole point of bringing warbikers in the first place.

I think the panic towards blast weapons is unjustified, as many of those guns do not want to shoot infantry blobs, no matter whether they get d6 or 6 shots. It doesn't suddenly make those guns great at killing infantry, it just makes those weapons more flexible.
The only guns worrying me are those which were already great at killing hordes despite having random shots like the TFC or mortars. Let's hope those get a hefty price hike.

That's what I thought when I first read the blast update rules. Most people who are shooting a battle cannon are going to target our vehicles and if they waste all their high strength shots on a blob of boyz, I'll happily let them!

isnt a battlecannon 2 damage? (Guard is rare around here atm, i havnt faced a guard player in over a year) 2 damage weapons that arent just massed to ridiculous levels generally dont threaten vehicles THAT much.
That feels more efficient to me to battlecannon a biker squad than a wagon w/ 'Ard Top.Wounding on 3s instead of 4s, less likely to save it, efficiently kills each biker with 1 failed save instead of just chipping paint.
Yeah you need 12 wounds instead of 9 to kill a wagon but at least while theyre 11+ models its guaranteed max shots and easier to hurt. I could see once the squad is below 11 to stop firing at them with battlecannons though.

My issue with blast is yeah in general its the weapons that realistically shouldnt be firing at that unit, but theres still several that fire a really widely random number of weak shots. Thunderfire cannon for example is going to auto-fire max shots against its intended target (hordes). For the most part blast wont be a factor but when it IS a factor its going to hurt hardcore.

I think going forward, any time you go above 11+ models, you'll have to justify it somehow, like the unit doesn't really function without it.

I have the feeling that 11-12 bikers is probably worse now than 10. Giving your opponent free damage on your unit (sometimes MASSIVELY so -- if this minimum 3 attacks is a thing, then stuff like TFCs get no bonus attacks at 6-10, then go to a guaranteed 12 shots at 11) just seems crazy, when 10 bikers probably will do about as well as 12 for what you intend them to do.

I think stuff like boys, which struggle to function except in the 20-30 range, will have to be "wait and see". We gotta see their points increases, and frankly, the battlefield was already unkind to the humble boy. It getting more deadly is not a good sign.

Also on warbikers point costs (with the caveat, of course, that cross army comparisons aren't 100%) -- the warbiker costs the same as the SM biker. Explain that one.

 TedNugent wrote:
I thought warbikers were terrible, though.

The lack of AP really hurts them imo. When marines were one wound, not so much of an issue but now they can be quite frustrating. But similarly to the Warboss, my OPs usually target them early on, fearful of their ability to tie things up and their perceived effectiveness in combat.

The +1str strat helps, but not really all that much. That said, against guard and hordes of nids, definitely not bad at all. Quite effective even. Just have to find an obliging OP.

About bikers, I am of the impression that they will have 3w each (4 the nob bikers). Just have a look at the new primaris bikers or the mechanicum hunds. 4w and 3w respectively.

Battle cannon I thin is 1d3 damage.

If I am right on both, then bikers are not the optimal target.

RedNoak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

From the Tyranid Faction Focus today

***These apply to things like forests and dense industrial ruins, where protection comes more from difficulty in picking out a target, rather than the shots physically being blocked.

With regards to "Dense Terrain"

.. eehhhmm anyone noticed how this is REGARDLESS IF THE TARGETED UNIT IS IN TERRAIN?!?!

So you’ll get the bonus even for intervening terrain!

Just copying that rom the rumors thread.... this is huge

 Vineheart01 wrote:
isnt a battlecannon 2 damage? (Guard is rare around here atm, i havnt faced a guard player in over a year) 2 damage weapons that arent just massed to ridiculous levels generally dont threaten vehicles THAT much.

A battlecannon is d3 damage, but I used the relic with flat 3 to demonstrate a kind of worst-case scenario. Most blasts don't shoot twice or re-roll hits or do flat 3 damage, so the impact tends to be less than the two dead bikers.

I'd be rather surprised to see them buff the wounds on bikers. We arent marines, we dont get such special treatments.
tbh nobz on their own should be 3w, they were 2w in previous editions and actively lost rules in 8th so that third wound would make sense.

I find it funny how the entire weapon system changed and 2W models are still pretty crap in the end. At least 3W models are annoying now, since flat3 damage guns arent terribly common and any random damage gun is bound to waste a few shots against them.

Dense cover is confirmed in tyranid faction focus.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/23/faction-focus-tyranidsgw-homepage-post-4fw-homepage-post-4/