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Sounds like a lot of FLY based armies like Eldar and Tau are going to have to rely on positioning a lot more now that they don't have to just bank on the units surviving combat to fall back and shoot you to bits. Given that they gave Tau their entire army free overwatch (which, to be fair, is kinda necessary with the FLY nerf), I wonder what other unit or subfaction changes they'll do if they're willing to give it to them, because that could be a sign for guys like Mordian Iron Guard that they can all overwatch for free like Tau can.

One sad thing though...

The Shockjump Dragsta, as currently worded, now only hits on a 4+.

Hopefully, as the intention seems to be it has a base BS3+ for the gun, they account for this somehow in day 1 errata.

At least you have no reason to never not advance it anymore, basically.

I didnt think of that, youre right.
Hopefully they mention it in the errata or price dock it a little.

At the very least, it has an extra +1 to combat a -1 so it actually wouldnt make a difference if it advanced (for that gun)

Unless they reword it i'm going to miss the days of my Freeboota Dragstas hitting on 2s.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I didnt think of that, youre right.
Hopefully they mention it in the errata or price dock it a little.

At the very least, it has an extra +1 to combat a -1 so it actually wouldnt make a difference if it advanced (for that gun)

it’s an easy fix
+1 to hit roll and +1 to bs
Just something to look out for and spam gw for the inevitable faq

tulun wrote:
One sad thing though...

The Shockjump Dragsta, as currently worded, now only hits on a 4+.

Hopefully, as the intention seems to be it has a base BS3+ for the gun, they account for this somehow in day 1 errata.

At least you have no reason to never not advance it anymore, basically.

And there was me who was just about to buy a few. For once I dodge this bullet instead of getting headshot ! I don't really like them anymore now, though like everything lets wait for the points to come out.

Pretty sure KBB will be the buggy winner when all settles down (Iit only has 8 wounds and I think GW will price them more or less the same based on their number of wounds, because GW is not too subtle, as we all know, when pricing units).

yeah... gonna be on the lookout for some alternative KBB and Dragsta models myself as soon as we now more details

dakka jet and the buggy are outliners... everything else would benefit from the +1, also if you are firing at anything in dense terrain etc the +1 will matter again, so freebooters are still a valid option IMHO


EDIT:
i dont have my codex handy... but wasnt it worded "use the bs of the grotgunner"? or am i thinking of older editions?

I don't think -1 to hit terrain will be that common

RedNoak wrote:
yeah... gonna be on the lookout for some alternative KBB and Dragsta models myself as soon as we now more details

dakka jet and the buggy are outliners... everything else would benefit from the +1, also if you are firing at anything in dense terrain etc the +1 will matter again, so freebooters are still a valid option IMHO


EDIT:
i dont have my codex handy... but wasnt it worded "use the bs of the grotgunner"? or am i thinking of older editions?

The rule is grot gunner and targeting squig.

I would recommend sending emails to the rules team noting that. I wouldn't be surprised if for our models with "grot" gunners, the rule will become:

"For X gun, use the BS4".

Then the dragsta, as someone suggested, will become BS4 with +1 to hit.

Regardless, I think the dragsta is good if you go with deathskull rerolls, even at a 4+ to hit. Just a weird quirk that this unit gets a bit of an unintended nerf, as mixing BS for a single model didn't make sense in 8th.

i sent them an email asking bout basically any such rule where its a singular rule modifying the stat by +/-2 rather than a stacking rule.

Stuff like Admech Dragoons getting -2 to hit wont come back, thats a rule stacking effect. But the Shokkjump Dragsta or admech skitarii strat are single rules for +2 to hit.
They either need to be reworked (add a reroll but only +1?) or retune the unit itself to compensate.

Im sure nobody would complain if for example the Shokkjump remained at 4+ to hit, but got an extra innate shot.

Another rule that comes to mind is tau stealthsuits. Arent they -2 to hit by default? Ghostkeels i know need the drone around so its technically rule-stacking, but also kinda the ONLY REASON for that drone to exist so wtf lol

Also confirmed -- Patrols cost 2 CP.

If you wanna mix clans... hmm. Yeah, that might be too hefty. But also 3 HQs for Orks seems a bit thin unless you just forego the psychic phase...

It's a real shame that Da Cleverest Boss Bike Meks aren't non-Legends. You could get Da Killa Klaw, Breakin' heads (and a CP returned), and a KFF, all rolled into one, into an acceptable package.

I actually wonder if that's the play here -- if you go 2 detachments, take the "follow me lads" warlord trait to soften the blow. Your wartrike, for example, could cover all units then for charging as well, and crump em if they ran.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/26/join-the-combat-patrolgw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-3/

ouch. That probably means the Outrider, Vanguard, etc detachments are also 2cp.

For pretty much any army, im fine with this as it brings us back to the original limitation in 40k: slots. But for Orks this really irritates me because orks really, really need to be mixed and you cant mix in a detachment (oh god that would be awesome if they omitted that)
Sounds like everybody will be deathskullz for the foreseeable future, as theyre the only kulture that actually works on every unit we have.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
ouch. That probably means the Outrider, Vanguard, etc detachments are also 2cp.

For pretty much any army, im fine with this as it brings us back to the original limitation in 40k: slots. But for Orks this really irritates me because orks really, really need to be mixed and you cant mix in a detachment (oh god that would be awesome if they omitted that)
Sounds like everybody will be deathskullz for the foreseeable future, as theyre the only kulture that actually works on every unit we have.

Best generalist army for sure. But for specific lists, you could see others getting a look (Freebootas, Evil Suns, Tin 'eads).

I reckon the other detachments are 3 CP, but maybe I'm wrong.

Honestly, Follow me Lads seems to be looking tasty, especially if we think the SSAG might not be as good this edition.

i've actually been using Follow Me Ladz as it is because i generally slap it on a Megamek thats dredging with grottanks/killakanz.
Next to ghaz/makari hes the toughest nut we have to crack to give up Slay the Warlord and you desperately want that aura around those grots lol.

Freebootas got a semi-hit because now Dakkajets and Sparklybitz morks wont be hitting on 3s, just counter a -1. Dunno if people were doing that with a sparkly bit mork but i know people used dakkajets in freeboota lists.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i've actually been using Follow Me Ladz as it is because i generally slap it on a Megamek thats dredging with grottanks/killakanz.
Next to ghaz/makari hes the toughest nut we have to crack to give up Slay the Warlord and you desperately want that aura around those grots lol.

Freebootas got a semi-hit because now Dakkajets and Sparklybitz morks wont be hitting on 3s, just counter a -1. Dunno if people were doing that with a sparkly bit mork but i know people used dakkajets in freeboota lists.

Yeah, fair. Hopefully it gets spared any points cost increases as he was a bit expensive for what you got.

Sparkly Bits Morks can hit on 3s. Sparkly Bits gives you +1 BS, actually, so it's *realllllllly* good.

hmm...youre right it does....the heck..
Well at either rate the Gork's gun doesnt, that does say +1 to hit roll. I seldom use the gork anyway.

edit: Speaking of freebootas, i may have just noticed a loophole i dont think ive heard anyone mention.
Shokkjump Dragstas. The rule says "within 24" of a model that has slain a unit this phase" - that means its proactive if you somehow moved in the shooting phase, the aura moves.
Shokkjump kills something and 1cp jumps across the table to give the long-range guns the bonus to hit.
It doesnt have any rerolls so its less likely to kill something than as deathskullz but oof thats funny.

Did you guys get what unit the previewed rule "No escape" might be given to ? Is it only a DE thing ?

Edit: ah ok its the wyche thing, sorry never mind this post

 Vineheart01 wrote:
hmm...youre right it does....the heck..
Well at either rate the Gork's gun doesnt, that does say +1 to hit roll. I seldom use the gork anyway.

Yeah. Sparkly Bits is incredible. Any unit that takes it (well excluding KK) basically is insulated from ever having to use More Dakka. The spoilers so far are really hammering how good Flash Gits are gonna be imo. They are looking incredibly CP efficient -- heck, even fire fights might be looking like closer ranged affairs, so their 2 foot guns are not even a problem.

That other argument y'all were having before, about whether Slug Gubbins was better than Sparkly Bits on a Gork -- my own spreadsheet I made made it clear that the Slug Gubbins was better basically all of the time, and even did well shooting at >12" (I didn't include the DS clan power, which would probably make it shift towards +1 BS, because AP-1 Big Shootas actually become awesome). But one thing to take into account now is that a Gork/Mork at BS4 never will hit at less than a 5+ innately.

tulun wrote:
Also confirmed -- Patrols cost 2 CP.

If you wanna mix clans... hmm. Yeah, that might be too hefty. But also 3 HQs for Orks seems a bit thin unless you just forego the psychic phase...

Well, it's an actual decision now instead of just taking everything that works well. I think infantry based armies will have to keep at least one weirdboy around, but you might need to decide between KFF, SSAG and killa klaw now. For vehicle lists, I'm just going to drop the weird boyz, they weren't doing too hot anyways.

It's a real shame that Da Cleverest Boss Bike Meks aren't non-Legends. You could get Da Killa Klaw, Breakin' heads (and a CP returned), and a KFF, all rolled into one, into an acceptable package.

That's a character just screaming to get killed by psychic powers, snipers or jump characters though. In my experience a KFF on a naut or wazbom is better than a biker mek if you just want a KFF.
The kleverest biker mek is great as second killa klaw since it's the only WS 2+ character that can wield a killsaw, with brutal but kunnin' you get 5 S10 AP-2 D3 attacks that hit on 3+ with full re-rolls.

I actually wonder if that's the play here -- if you go 2 detachments, take the "follow me lads" warlord trait to soften the blow. Your wartrike, for example, could cover all units then for charging as well, and crump em if they ran.

Most armies that need the wartrike aura don't need the regular Waaagh! and vice versa. In infantry lists, vehicles tellyport in, in vehicle lists infantry either tellyports in or charges from transports.
You rarely have vehicles and infantry advancing next to each other, that's just not how orks work.

 Jidmah wrote:

Well, it's an actual decision now instead of just taking everything that works well. I think infantry based armies will have to keep at least one weirdboy around, but you might need to decide between KFF, SSAG and killa klaw now. For vehicle lists, I'm just going to drop the weird boyz, they weren't doing too hot anyways.

I think this is fine if you are really going full mech and maybe not even fielding grots, but Da Jump is still reallllly good. If you have any infantry to snatch objectives, it'll still be really good. And just having a denial chance for a key psychic power.

That's a character just screaming to get killed by psychic powers, snipers or jump characters though. In my experience a KFF on a naut or wazbom is better than a biker mek if you just want a KFF.
The kleverest biker mek is great as second killa klaw since it's the only WS 2+ character that can wield a killsaw, with brutal but kunnin' you get 5 S10 AP-2 D3 attacks that hit on 3+ with full re-rolls.

Probably true if you go with an outrider with only 1-2 HQs though anyway someone is gonna be your warlord.

How are you getting that 5th attack by the by? Big Mek starts with 3, +1 from Kleverest. It can't take 2 kill saws, and Brutal but Kunnin' doesn't give you a bonus attack.

Most armies that need the wartrike aura don't need the regular Waaagh! and vice versa. In infantry lists, vehicles tellyport in, in vehicle lists infantry either tellyports in or charges from transports.
You rarely have vehicles and infantry advancing next to each other, that's just not how orks work.

Yeah, fair. It's more of a side benefit and niche. Breakin' heads + CP bonus is why you'd take it. Having my Wartrike being able to babysit my Killa Kans seems awesome to me.

tulun wrote:
I think this is fine if you are really going full mech and maybe not even fielding grots, but Da Jump is still reallllly good. If you have any infantry to snatch objectives, it'll still be really good. And just having a denial chance for a key psychic power.

I think armies will be bringing less power in general, as they will strive to fit their armies into a single battalions or brigades. With slots becoming an actual limiter again instead of just defining taxes, everyone will have to get used to either not getting all the good choices from their HQ, elite, FA or HS slots or having less CP available. Considering how valuable CP seem to become for playing the basic game, I doubt people will be branching out of their one detachment a lot.
Or in other words, all armies will have to do with three of their "good" slots, not just us.

How are you getting that 5th attack by the by? Big Mek starts with 3, +1 from Kleverest. It can't take 2 kill saws, and Brutal but Kunnin' doesn't give you a bonus attack.

Right, I was mixing it up with the da biggest boss.

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:
I think this is fine if you are really going full mech and maybe not even fielding grots, but Da Jump is still reallllly good. If you have any infantry to snatch objectives, it'll still be really good. And just having a denial chance for a key psychic power.

I think armies will be bringing less power in general, as they will strive to fit their armies into a single battalions or brigades. With slots becoming an actual limiter again instead of just defining taxes, everyone will have to get used to either not getting all the good choices from their HQ, elite, FA or HS slots or having less CP available. Considering how valuable CP seem to become for playing the basic game, I doubt people will be branching out of their one detachment a lot.
Or in other words, all armies will have to do with three of their "good" slots, not just us.

I guess we will see. We need full context and for the meta to start exploring new lists.

I wouldn't be surprised if Space Marines (and similar) wouldn't try to keep doing 2 detachments, though. On net, they will still be ahead 3 CP if they take a patrol (going from double bat at 13 CP, to 16 CP over the game).

You don't fight against 8th edition armies though, and three CP is 30 PL put into reserve which is massive.
Especially marines should have no trouble filling all slots with good options, so I heavily doubt that they would burden themselves with extra intercessors if they can have better stuff.

Marines literally have amazing gak in every slot. Theyre not like us where Elite is pretty much pointless except in a very niche list.

If anything, 9th edition boosts them the most because it was heavy taxing to bring the 2bat troop requirement. They didnt want troops. They dont have to have 6 squads now and probably will just take a single bat (we know it exists because an older article mentioned refunded cp for patrol, battalion, and brigade)

We have even seen battalion sheet.

And yeah marines aren't taking extra det's lightly. Less incentive to take other chapters as well due to super doctrine. Non marine allies even less.

LoW auxiliary costs now 3 CP.... The Stompa gets better and better every edition

 Emicrania wrote:
LoW auxiliary costs now 3 CP.... The Stompa gets better and better every edition

At that point, might as well go for the Supreme Command, assuming it's 3 CP. Might want more HQs anyway.

I'm gonna laugh a bit if the Stompa is the only unit in 40k to receive additional points decreases in this whole change over.

Has anyone seen the new rules for Gruk Facerippa and other Goff Ork units in the new WD? The Goff rocka in particular is pretty good! They are open and narrative play only but quite fun and I know my regular opponent would let me use them.

Got rare pleasure of facing orks today. Not most common tournament army here and I keep missing them. I have faced orks precisely once since I think 5th ed...

It was rather casual list even for casual tournament so not much of note from that. Except that triumph is rather tricky one to take down it seems for orks at least if you can't point big blob of boyz or couple dreadnoughts at it. Flashgit, scrapjet, the mek's speshul buggy, warboss with the upgrade stratagem and power klaw(not relic one), weirdboy and gunwagon(even charging in with grabbing klaw) tried for 2 or 3 turns(minus casualties each turn) to take her down and it kept resisting.

Well as said casual list but if you face triumph best tool is likely tons of attacks. Boyz mob rather than dreadnought for example. -1 to hit, 18 wounds and up to 3 virtually quaranteed inv saves passed per phase keeps her surprisingly resilient.

tulun wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
LoW auxiliary costs now 3 CP.... The Stompa gets better and better every edition

At that point, might as well go for the Supreme Command, assuming it's 3 CP. Might want more HQs anyway.

I'm gonna laugh a bit if the Stompa is the only unit in 40k to receive additional points decreases in this whole change over.

Good point, I just REALLY wanna field one this edition.