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 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?

Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon

Yeah, seeing that crushed my hopes for a mech list revival for Orks, at least one using boyz in any capacity.

Also, I feel like the storm shield rules will not give termies the +1 to their armour save, just the 4++ save, because these storm shields are explicitly called relic storm shields, so I could see non-relic ones just giving a 4++ save instead. Not like GW care if the older models aren't as competitive given how hard they're pushing primaris as direct replacements anyways.

On the data sheet it’s just called a storm shield actually.

Regardless, there’s no way terminators will keep a 2++. That’s game breaking.

RedNoak wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

- weaker character protection rules making a grot shield mandatory even against non-snipers

thats what i dont understand?! why? if its enough to have 3 models in front... isnt that the same deal for the SAG? just surround him with gretchin and he cant be shot at (like in 8th)

You have unit of grots, opponent shoot grots. No character protection, no grot screen. When is bunch of t2 w1 6+ guys hard to kill? Before grot screen was enough for snipers as rest of your army prevented shooting. Now opponent deletes grots and ssag is free target.


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tulun wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?

Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon

Yeah, seeing that crushed my hopes for a mech list revival for Orks, at least one using boyz in any capacity.

Also, I feel like the storm shield rules will not give termies the +1 to their armour save, just the 4++ save, because these storm shields are explicitly called relic storm shields, so I could see non-relic ones just giving a 4++ save instead. Not like GW care if the older models aren't as competitive given how hard they're pushing primaris as direct replacements anyways.

On the data sheet it’s just called a storm shield actually.

Regardless, there’s no way terminators will keep a 2++. That’s game breaking.

Marines have been game breaking for a while. What's one more thing.

Yep at this point 2++ terminators would not scare me more than the new bikes honestly

dont forget naught killing eredicators. and sice aggressors only went up like 10% they are cheaper now in comparision to other stuff... but yeah the bikes will be a hassle... 6 attacks on the charge with ap-1 and 5 boltershots (-1ap) at 15" is damn scary, especially on a T5 W4 platform that costs 40 points...

soooo i asked before but since its a new page.....
if 1+ saves are a thing now, can MANZ legally get it too?

EDIT:

oopsie, forgot abou bolter drill... so thats 9 shots per bike...?

RedNoak wrote:


well on the plus side... are 1+ meganobz now a thing?

No, because there's nothing that can improve their save characteristic by one. They can only gain +1 save from cover but it's not the same thing.

I'm intrigued as to whether this within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" rule will make Killa Kans more viable, with their large bases meaning that they will likely get the whole unit swinging unless they're conga-ing.

tneva82 wrote:


Marines have been game breaking for a while. What's one more thing.

Because they've nerfed it every time it's happened so far.

Buffable 2++ saves and 1+ armour saves have always been nerfed.

Just funny they didn't make Storm Shields give a bonus +1 to the save roll instead, but maybe they also didn't wanna give terminators a bonus armour save with storm shield.

 some bloke wrote:
I'm intrigued as to whether this within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" rule will make Killa Kans more viable, with their large bases meaning that they will likely get the whole unit swinging unless they're conga-ing.

I mean, with bigger base units such as the bikers and kans it's always been fairly easy to get a good chunk of the unit in combat from only one dude touching the enemy. 1 kan touches and you can easily get the other 5 or 4 to be within an inch or half to be able to swing.

Bloody hell I can't wait till we get a leak on the ork points. Really wanna do a breakdown of the % increase to see how we fare vs marines.

cody.d. wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
I'm intrigued as to whether this within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" rule will make Killa Kans more viable, with their large bases meaning that they will likely get the whole unit swinging unless they're conga-ing.

I mean, with bigger base units such as the bikers and kans it's always been fairly easy to get a good chunk of the unit in combat from only one dude touching the enemy. 1 kan touches and you can easily get the other 5 or 4 to be within an inch or half to be able to swing.

Bloody hell I can't wait till we get a leak on the ork points. Really wanna do a breakdown of the % increase to see how we fare vs marines.

ehhhm NO.

in 8th the rule was the same... only with double the distance. you had to be within 1" of a model that is within 1" of an enemy, Now its the same just halfed... i.e. 1/2"

so... like i said its the same just worse. only upside is the 5" vertical range.

 Blackie wrote:

RedNoak wrote:

well on the plus side... are 1+ meganobz now a thing?

No, because there's nothing that can improve their save characteristic by one. They can only gain +1 save from cover but it's not the same thing.

didnt the loot it strat give +1 to save rolls?

RedNoak wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
I'm intrigued as to whether this within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" rule will make Killa Kans more viable, with their large bases meaning that they will likely get the whole unit swinging unless they're conga-ing.

I mean, with bigger base units such as the bikers and kans it's always been fairly easy to get a good chunk of the unit in combat from only one dude touching the enemy. 1 kan touches and you can easily get the other 5 or 4 to be within an inch or half to be able to swing.

Bloody hell I can't wait till we get a leak on the ork points. Really wanna do a breakdown of the % increase to see how we fare vs marines.

ehhhm NO.

in 8th the rule was the same... only with double the distance. you had to be within 1" of a model that is within 1" of an enemy, Now its the same just halfed... i.e. 1/2"

so... like i said its the same just worse. only upside is the 5" vertical range.

Still had very few issues getting units with larger bases all in combat range. One model gets in range, it projects an aura of sorts that lets other models swing at the enemy. A kan base is like, 60mm right? So you can be about 70 or 80mm from the enemy but still swing with that second kan.

RedNoak wrote:

didnt the loot it strat give +1 to save rolls?

No, it improves the save characteristic.


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Another sad note too.

Deff rollas officially hit on a 4+ now, not a 2+.

Really hope they caught this day 1.

cody.d. wrote:

Spoiler:

RedNoak wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
I'm intrigued as to whether this within 1/2" of another model within 1/2" rule will make Killa Kans more viable, with their large bases meaning that they will likely get the whole unit swinging unless they're conga-ing.

I mean, with bigger base units such as the bikers and kans it's always been fairly easy to get a good chunk of the unit in combat from only one dude touching the enemy. 1 kan touches and you can easily get the other 5 or 4 to be within an inch or half to be able to swing.

Bloody hell I can't wait till we get a leak on the ork points. Really wanna do a breakdown of the % increase to see how we fare vs marines.

ehhhm NO.

in 8th the rule was the same... only with double the distance. you had to be within 1" of a model that is within 1" of an enemy, Now its the same just halfed... i.e. 1/2"

so... like i said its the same just worse. only upside is the 5" vertical range.

Still had very few issues getting units with larger bases all in combat range. One model gets in range, it projects an aura of sorts that lets other models swing at the enemy. A kan base is like, 60mm right? So you can be about 70 or 80mm from the enemy but still swing with that second kan.

yes but its still more difficult than before :/

tulun wrote:
No, it improves the save characteristic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another sad note too.

Deff rollas officially hit on a 4+ now, not a 2+.

Really hope they caught this day 1.

damn thats a bummer and the only reason i thought they would be fixing it

why are deffrollas hitting on 4+ now?

From what I've read of the rules, I believe that the +1 max may only to multiple +1 bonus'. If your ability gives you a natural +2 I don't think that's affected. I know of plenty of factions who have +2 bonus' but I think it's designed to prevent cumulative bonus', not natural +2 bonus'.
Just a thought, maybe they will clarify it later.

RedNoak wrote:


why are deffrollas hitting on 4+ now?

Battlewagons are naturally WS5+.

The Deff Rolla gives you +3 to hit.

Because +hit modifeirs are capped, as far as we know this means it now hits on a 4+.

It sucks balls. But I doubt it's intentional. I'm gonna write em in with a FAQ for this and the shokk jump, as well as some general Saga of the Beast questions if they ever bother to write one.

We have to see the data sheets a lot of stuff is changing that no longer works across several factions. this is an easy fix by just improving the BS instead of the to hit roll.


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 Jidmah wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?

Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon

That’s the kind of broken combos that gets FAQd to fix however I beleive wholly within only means a piece of every models base needs to be within. Even at 32mm it should fit

Okay a thought popped into my mind. Say you have an enemy unit in their deployment zone sitting on a second level of a building. A unit of bikers zoom across the field and charge said unit. If there is a unit in the bottom of the building you simply charge them, putting the unit on the second level within your 5" vertical engagement zone. Unless there is a third level that unit cannot actually get out of your engagement zone unless they use the strat that lets you fallback through enemy models. This seems like a fairly valuable way of pinning a unit in combat Hell, even with that strat it may be tricky to get down the level and out of an inch with the entire unit.

Thoughts?

gungo wrote:
We have to see the data sheets a lot of stuff is changing that no longer works across several factions. this is an easy fix by just improving the BS instead of the to hit roll.


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 Jidmah wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
oh and can we all agree big blobs of boyz are dead for good? i really dont see any reason to take boyz anymore... the CC sucks, they cant move around as freely anymore and cant effectivly block space. gretchin for troops and nobz to smash things?

Yeah, I have the same feeling. Fun fact: Transports changing to disembarking "wholly within" combined with coherency rules and the new base size actually makes it physically impossible for a unit for 20 to disembark from a battlewagon

That’s the kind of broken combos that gets FAQd to fix however I beleive wholly within only means a piece of every models base needs to be within. Even at 32mm it should fit

The rules of 9th are absolutely crystal clear that wholly within means every part of every model needs to be within. There is no room for ambiguity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Okay a thought popped into my mind. Say you have an enemy unit in their deployment zone sitting on a second level of a building. A unit of bikers zoom across the field and charge said unit. If there is a unit in the bottom of the building you simply charge them, putting the unit on the second level within your 5" vertical engagement zone. Unless there is a third level that unit cannot actually get out of your engagement zone unless they use the strat that lets you fallback through enemy models. This seems like a fairly valuable way of pinning a unit in combat Hell, even with that strat it may be tricky to get down the level and out of an inch with the entire unit.

Thoughts?

Good catch, this seems to work.

Ruins becoming death traps instead of "immune to CC" is a nice change

My mind is just pouring over the different ways we can use and abuse terrain rules in the new edition. Got a friend who plays Nidzilla who's also really enjoying the changes.

 r_squared wrote:
From what I've read of the rules, I believe that the +1 max may only to multiple +1 bonus'. If your ability gives you a natural +2 I don't think that's affected. I know of plenty of factions who have +2 bonus' but I think it's designed to prevent cumulative bonus', not natural +2 bonus'.
Just a thought, maybe they will clarify it later.

"hit roll can never be modified by more than +1 or -1.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:


The rules of 9th are absolutely crystal clear that wholly within means every part of every model needs to be within. There is no room for ambiguity.

Vertical as well? Aka kff next to stompa covers or not. Upper areas not covered by 9"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Okay a thought popped into my mind. Say you have an enemy unit in their deployment zone sitting on a second level of a building. A unit of bikers zoom across the field and charge said unit. If there is a unit in the bottom of the building you simply charge them, putting the unit on the second level within your 5" vertical engagement zone. Unless there is a third level that unit cannot actually get out of your engagement zone unless they use the strat that lets you fallback through enemy models. This seems like a fairly valuable way of pinning a unit in combat Hell, even with that strat it may be tricky to get down the level and out of an inch with the entire unit.

Thoughts?

Unless they are good enough to kill you in melee yeah works

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


The rules of 9th are absolutely crystal clear that wholly within means every part of every model needs to be within. There is no room for ambiguity.

Vertical as well? Aka kff next to stompa covers or not. Upper areas not covered by 9"

Yes, this has already been the case in 8th since the last big FAQ. A KFF big mek could also not cover a battlewagon with deff rolla most of the time because the corners would reach out.

tulun wrote:

RedNoak wrote:


why are deffrollas hitting on 4+ now?

Battlewagons are naturally WS5+.

The Deff Rolla gives you +3 to hit.

Because +hit modifeirs are capped, as far as we know this means it now hits on a 4+.

It sucks balls. But I doubt it's intentional. I'm gonna write em in with a FAQ for this and the shokk jump, as well as some general Saga of the Beast questions if they ever bother to write one.

+1 or -1 to hit being capped is clearly the answer to cumulative bonuses that in 8th could stack and could be too powerful. Units/wargear like the Rolla or the main gun of the Dragsta will likely get fixed somehow, they aren't the result of cheesy combos that needed to be addressed, and without a fix both SJD and BB/BW would be dead. Only way to fix it is to modify BS/WS of the models though.

SJD with a BS4+ and +1 to hit with the main gun, -1 with the other gun.

BW with rolla and BB with WS2+.

Would have the nice unintended effect of making the rokkit on there not such an afterthought, too.

well or you could make the rule say: add X to BS/WS instead of + X to hit

but since this is only a ork issue i dont think that it will get fixed... same as the lack of a FAQ for PA

RedNoak wrote:
well or you could make the rule say: add X to BS/WS instead of + X to hit

but since this is only a ork issue i dont think that it will get fixed... same as the lack of a FAQ for PA

It's not an ork only issue, data tethers for admech give a +2 to hit, that's why I think that it maybe clarified to mean that bonus' are non-stackable rather than max out at +/-1

So, given we know now the price of all the detachment, which klan and in which form should be the best one?

Freeboterz battallion + DS patrol?
DS Brigade?
DS battallion + ES patrol?

ATM
SSAG
2 Weirdboy
1 Warboss on bike with relic Klaw and Biggest Boss
---
6x10 gretchin
---
3x3 MANz
MadDok
---
3 Deffkopta
---
Morkanaut with sparkly bitz
6 smashaguns
Gunwagon with Da boomer
---
1 Burna bomber

Tolls you 1780 points, which should result in about 2000 points. Now you have 7 CP left, if you survive 6 turns, that brings you back to 12.

 Emicrania wrote:
So, given we know now the price of all the detachment, which klan and in which form should be the best one?

Freeboterz battallion + DS patrol?
DS Brigade?
DS battallion + ES patrol?

...

Tolls you 1780 points, which should result in about 2000 points. Now you have 7 CP left, if you survive 6 turns, that brings you back to 12.

Man, that just feels like a razor thin army compared to 9th already. New points costs will really help.

I think the likely play will be some combo of Deathskulls or DS + 2nd detachment of whatever flavour.

I'm not sure how people feel about this, but competitive Evil Suns are going away, yeah? Seems like that was often the default clan of competitive players. DS was largely just there for Shock Attack Guns.

Hell, if the missions are as board control / rush into the middle as they seem, I'd probably prefer to take STR5 goff boys backed by Ghaz. Might as well make the centre of the board a bloody nightmare.

 Lysit wrote:
Relevant text here.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2020/06/9th-edition-rumors.html?m=1

There should be a global ban on natkfa. on every platform.

 Emicrania wrote:
Tolls you 1780 points, which should result in about 2000 points. Now you have 7 CP left, if you survive 6 turns, that brings you back to 12.

Games always end after turn 5 now.

In general, that list feels like you are using hat brigade for just as single HQ slot. I'd drop the SSAG or a weird boy, 3 units of gretchin and the koptas and fit in another bommer or some buggies. Something that actually does something.

tulun wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
So, given we know now the price of all the detachment, which klan and in which form should be the best one?

Freeboterz battallion + DS patrol?
DS Brigade?
DS battallion + ES patrol?

...

Tolls you 1780 points, which should result in about 2000 points. Now you have 7 CP left, if you survive 6 turns, that brings you back to 12.

Man, that just feels like a razor thin army compared to 9th already. New points costs will really help.

I think the likely play will be some combo of Deathskulls or DS + 2nd detachment of whatever flavour.

I'm not sure how people feel about this, but competitive Evil Suns are going away, yeah? Seems like that was often the default clan of competitive players. DS was largely just there for Shock Attack Guns.

Hell, if the missions are as board control / rush into the middle as they seem, I'd probably prefer to take STR5 goff boys backed by Ghaz. Might as well make the centre of the board a bloody nightmare.

Yeah I have similar thoughts but don't agree 100% on the Evil Sunz part. I think we'll see lists structured like so:
1. Mono Clan Brigade/Battalion
2. Double Battalion, either mono clan or with an about even split between two clans.
3. Battalion + Other, where we'll have either monoclan or one primary clan and a support clan.
4. Battalion + 2 patrols, where we'll have the 2 patrols specifically to grab unique abilities from two supporting clans.
I don't expect many 3 detachment lists because the CP cost will compete too much with all our pregame upgrades that we depend on.

Deathskulls is the best monoclan faction imo (also my favourite clan by coincidence), they just uplift all your units. Even units like killa kans implicitly benefit from the relic and psychic spell. They also are the easiest to build a brigade with as they benefit MSU more. So I agree that we'll be seeing Deathskulls as the default clan for brigades and battalions.
I think Evil Sunz still has merit and wouldn't be surprised if it was a primary clan in a lot of lists, we might not see a brigade of Evil Sunz but I could see a battalion of evil suns + battalion of Deathskulls. Evil Sunz kultur provides a buff that is desirable on most ork units, and the ork units that will prefer something else can sit in detachment number two.
Freebooters on paper sounds better off with the new detachments but the missions look a lot less kill focused and terrain provides a lot more defense now, so it might be harder to trigger the kultur then before. Furthermore, Badrukk and Flashgitz can just go hang out with some Deathskulls and not be fussed about it.
I think Bad Moons is actually the clan that gets worse off, we were often taking it for the sake of Lootas and Tankbustas. Running a detachment for the sake of 1 or 2 units is actually a huge resource cost now, maybe if people want Lootas they'll commit to a Patrol and leave it at that. Tankbustas actually function fine outside of Badmoons, they're just insanely good when they shoot twice, so I think we'll see people taking them as Deathskulls/Evil Sunz.
Goffs might be more relevant with Ghaz and mechanised lists. I think Blood Axes might have a harder time due to the smaller board size, they probably will get a faq to change them to getting the benefit of "light cover".
No one played snakebites and I don't see why they would still.
I think the Grot Mobs and Tin 'Eads detachments will see play but only as a spearhead or vanguard detachment in addition to a Deathskulls/Evil Sunz battalion.

At the moment I would mostly consider going monoclan. Lack of CPs could really starve the army.

Freeboota, Evil sunz and Deathskullz are all legit options. I'll try to work a full Tin 'Eadz list with Dreads, Naut, Kanz, Meganobz, some cheap fillers like Meks, Grots or Koptas and shooting units for ranged support: Mek gunz, Scrapjets, Da Boomer, Flyers, Tankbustas, Flash Gitz should be ok regardless of the klan.

I'd take a second detachment, the cheapest one in terms of CPs, only for shooting twice with a Bad Moons unit.

3 detachment lists simply make no sense, even in 8th they're were basically only for granting more CPs, not for playing with three klans.

Brigades could be hard to fill if points are going to increase by 150-200 considering an 8th 2000 points list. Some units would also be pure tax.