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Based on what we know right now and granted we don't have the full picture (points will be the gamechanger)

These are my concerns, at the moment from a competitive stand point we rely on;

1. Large units of Ork boyz putting out hundreds of low AP attacks to force through wounds

2. The relic souped up shokka

3. Smasha gunz

These units along with Weirdboy, KFF and Warboss support do most of our heavy lifting as a faction. They control the board. threaten big scary charges and do most of our ranged output.

These are our best units for me, In the tier below this this things like Lootas, Meganobz, Burna Bomba's are reasonable but probably not top tier. At least in my experience.

With what we know about 9th its likely that the humble Ork boy will;
* Cost one or two points more (speculation)
* Suffer against blasts in large units
* Suffer in combat with the 1/2 of engaged models rule, meaning we won't be reliably able to get much more than 10-15 guys into engagement range - particularly if we are relying on Jump + 9" charge.And bearing in mind we have to ensure we aren't over stretching our units lest we get hit by the coherency penalties.

With the new Look out sir rule, unless you baby sit your Souped Up Shokka big mek with multiple units, the enemy is going to reach out and remove him routinely as he represents one of our strongest threats particularly against vehicles and monsters.

So where do we go from here as a faction?

I'm not saying that the sky is falling or anything but the guts of our army appear to have been torn out.

I could see the potential in Trukk boyz IF Trukks came down to around 40-50 points, which is unlikely to happen.

Meganobz are going to deliver one killer charge (if they can hit a worthwhile unit to make their points back) but surely they will go up in points, don't have an invuln save and are going to be countered hard.

Our planes are a reasonable distraction and annoyance factor but aren't going to win a game or contest objectives.

Maybe if Morkanauts and Gorkanauts come down 100 pts each.... scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

It'll be fine.

It seems like the new missions are VERY focused on board control, and not killing.

Orks are very, very good at board control, and we frankly can't hurt armies like SM worth a damn, so play the mission and you'll win plenty of games.

 TedNugent wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Hopefully the fast attack slot is decently balanced points wise, it and our heavy support is where I feel a lot of orks potential strength is.

I feel like the real potential will be with buggies, since they can shoot in combat now and don't care about blasts. The Boom Blasta sounds particularly interesting with the flamers.

Supposedly from 9th ed playtesters



Starting cliffnotes as I watch:

Spoiler:

Positives:

Board control - most of the game is about footprint, hold half the board for at least half the game, usually win.

Boyz are good at this because they can stack KFF and Painboyz to survive, since you earn points during your command phase, you need to survive.

CPs - he would always take 3 batts - he gets the same number of CPs with more flexibility

Morale got more lenient

"Screens are twice as powerful in this edition" for two reasons - deep strike, and you can't risk double charging because if you can't reach one unit, you fail. Buff to armies with cheap screens.

Smaller board size - hurts da jump, easier to stay in bubble range. Allows you to stay in striking distance but hold objectives.

"The boyz are not the killiest things on the board any more" with the "Rise of Space Marines."

5 turns helps Orks.

"Kills don't matter."

Freebootas assisted by MSU spam

Negatives:

wrapping

Tagging is less effective with boyz, Grots are a little better

Line of sight - the moment you move into a piece of terrain, you can be shot

Blast weapons - terrified of blasts - are going to be unbelievable against the orks - tag them

Limited HQs - harder to get - Orks will be behind on CP due to cost to get HQ slots

You're going to want to be much more mono-faction

There is so much more fight first - many times you will want to get charged

watched the video yesterday and it was very bad... they thought painboyz are HQ (and though they were useful) Everything they showed worked similar or even better in 8th.

I dont know... 30 boyz were easy to delete in 8th, now with blast theay are even easier to kill than before. I do not think boyz have any future in Ork lists (maybe one jumped unit, but even then with the new CC rules its gonna be hard to do any real damage with them)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
It'll be fine.

It seems like the new missions are VERY focused on board control, and not killing.

Orks are very, very good at board control, and we frankly can't hurt armies like SM worth a damn, so play the mission and you'll win plenty of games.

There are lots of objectives that focus on killing though. And board control has become much more difficult then before. Every Army has their respective CC units, and most of them will eat boyz for dinner

tneva82 wrote:

 addnid wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Not impossible. Stuff like land speeders also didn't go up in points.

Sorry I was out this weekend, Are the new points out ? Have I missed this major leak ?

Marine points got leaked. Some ideas on sisters(the not so competive list was about 1700pts 8th ed. Exorcist tank same, for weird reason d3 damage bolter went from 1 to 5). There might be some other leaks in number of youtube br's as some have got green light on using 9th points.

Ah ok thanks !

@Jidmah thank you

Well at least you can be reassured that they were playtesters for the new edition, lol.

tulun wrote:It'll be fine.

It seems like the new missions are VERY focused on board control, and not killing.

Orks are very, very good at board control, and we frankly can't hurt armies like SM worth a damn, so play the mission and you'll win plenty of games.

In my experience the buggy list is totally awesome at controlling the board. I've had over 20 games with it so far (7 of those with SotB) and outside of an entire ynnari harlequin list charging me head first T1 (and getting murdered in the process), at least the entire no-mans land belonged to me for the first three turns and usually I manage to wrestle large parts of their deployment zone from them as well. With smaller boards and some optimization to run only two types of buggies (my choice would be KBB and SJD unless they don't fix the shokk rifle), I can see them being extremely difficult to handle. Burna bommers get even better in 9th, as they force your opponent to castle up, effectively giving up board control, while the second bommer can fly off T1, staying in reserves until there is a juicy target to 'eadbut. The regenerating CP also make sure that you always have the CP to do so.

RedNoak wrote:watched the video yesterday and it was very bad... they thought painboyz are HQ (and though they were useful) Everything they showed worked similar or even better in 8th.

I had the same impression. It was a mix of captain obvious and a space marine player telling you how orks work.

I didnt even finish watching that video. I saw the painboy bit and went "HA! HAHA! Zog off you dont know what youre talking about"

If the painboy had better stats for himself like Grotsnik we'd actually use him, because the FNP aura alone is not worth it anymore. Grotsnik at least is a beatstick in his own right.

Just look the same guys when they try Ghaz . The Ork player is a total n00b and have 0 clues of what is he doing. I was gonna write that they might know the rules, but he claim the painboy is a HQ, so...

Also 2 KFF to protect 2 units of boyz???? Are you out of your fething mind!?

 Emicrania wrote:
Just look the same guys when they try Ghaz . The Ork player is a total n00b and have 0 clues of what is he doing. I was gonna write that they might know the rules, but he claim the painboy is a HQ, so...

Also 2 KFF to protect 2 units of boyz???? Are you out of your fething mind!?

Two KFF is bonkers. Especially with how limited our HQ slots are now. One of the benefits of Deathskulls even is that you can probably cheat a bit and go with LESS KFF coverage, as you have a built in 6++.

On a side note, though -- Ghaz makes sense to me now. As long as he's not a billion points, you walk him up and hit an objective turn 2 (Or Tellyporta him in), then flip your opponent off, as he might be the best objective camper in the game.

Headbutt coming from reserves doesn't work from what I understood, because if you do so the plane must arrive 9' away form enemies. Which sucks !!!!!

I hope I understood it wrong

 Jidmah wrote:

tulun wrote:It'll be fine.

Burna bommers get even better in 9th, as they force your opponent to castle up, effectively giving up board control, while the second bommer can fly off T1, staying in reserves until there is a juicy target to 'eadbut. The regenerating CP also make sure that you always have the CP to do so.

RedNoak wrote:watched the video yesterday and it was very bad... they thought painboyz are HQ (and though they were useful) Everything they showed worked similar or even better in 8th.

I had the same impression. It was a mix of captain obvious and a space marine player telling you how orks work.

If the plane is 1" from your edge and theyre there as well you can set the plane up closer than 9.
Problem is nobody is going to be stupid enough to be that close to your backfield when you have reserves, plus orks typically wont be that far backfield anyway.

Yeah that could be good if you could hide him in the middle of the table behind an objective (which sounds reasonable with the new terrain rules) he could countercharge anything that comes too close.

Also Nobz and manz look jucier this edition, the Buggys (especially the sjd with its fire and fade) seem to be an easy choice, also the koptaz are cheap enough to be a good filler. 60 gretchin are cheap and always useful... Tankbustaz could also work well, since they don't need cp to be effective

Seems to me that brigades will be the way to go for orks... Maybe a supreme detachment if that gets the keyword

But of course this all depends on how hard the Pointhammer will drop on us


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
If the plane is 1" from your edge and theyre there as well you can set the plane up closer than 9.
Problem is nobody is going to be stupid enough to be that close to your backfield when you have reserves, plus orks typically wont be that far backfield anyway.

Damn... You are right... God this is stupid. This means flyers can only re-enter the battlefield from your own edge... Since flyers are usually bigger than 6" and therefore cannot be set up wholly within 6

We really won't know how Boyz, Nobs, or MANz compare until we see the points.

After seeing the price hikes on standard Tac Marines (?????) and Intercessors, I don't really know what everything is going to look like until we see points.

Meganobs are still absurdly slow and while their durability is decent, their damage output is still really nothing to write home about...and They are still over $20 a model.
We're still going to have to pay the troop tax, so the question comes down to whether you are going to be running 30 tax grots, or 3 units of Boyz in various configurations unless you want to lose Command Points taking a different detachment.

As Evil Sunz, you make up some of the speed loss and can deep strike them effectively, with Death Skulls they gain obsec but are significantly less effective from deep strike and really demand a transport.
With the catastrophic nerf to deffrollas, is this really viable? Given the state of Trukks, is this really viable unless they see a drastic point cost reduction? Does that seem likely considering hikes to Razorbacks, Rhinos, and Repulsors?

Nobs are rather flimsy with only a 4+ armor save, and they are now outshined by basic Assault Intercessors which are troops. I'm afraid taking them in full strength would now be unwise, and MSUs are going to be capped by the rule of 3, assuming that is still in place. We don't get the advantage of combat squad to take full advantage of MSU to avoid blasts.
They also are really not getting any appreciable buffs, so I don't see how they are looking juicier apart from being relative to Boyz squads taking some serious nerfs from the core rules changes.

Maybe a combination of MANz and Nobs as working combat troops in transports as Death Skulls. I still don't know what the hell to do with Boyz in such a list. Transports are anathema, and they are rather slow. With Death Skulls they don't get the +1 to charge from Deep Strike. So I guess grots?
I'm thinking of running 8 man Nobz with 2 ammo Gretchin for absorbing multi wound or high AP.
Evil Sunz is still the more flexible of the two when it comes to combat delivery.

Engagement changes I think favor Nob and MANz unit sizes.

It’s all about point costs
But technically blasts for boy blobs and da jumping 30+ boys isn’t a massive issue considering you can’t shoot blast weapons into combat...

Meaning get your boys locked into combat!!! If someone is playing IG with a bunch of basilisks or battle cannon tanks lock them in combat and you effectively neuter these issues.

However it still is a big issue to worry about and going second means da jumping 30 evilsun boys is a risk even if you are able to obscure them with terrain.

So I’m not calling boys gone yet but if they go up in points without any meaningful improvement they will be in bad shape.

At this point I’m just waiting to see the new points. I’m still not sold on mass buggies Outside of the SJD Which is just great.

well i was thinking along the lines of:

2x5 nobz
3 manz
6x10 gretchin
2x SJD
1 Kopta

And then all the HQ,Heavies and flyers you wanna field, because i still think those will do the heavy lifting in orks lists. CC is kinda dead anyway (at least as a main damage dealer, twas pretty usless in 8th before... so now...)

the nobs could be fitted in a trukk or warkopta, the Manz teleport behind terrain to camp an objective. grots to what grots do and fill the board, camp objectives and provide protection for other units.

the Heavy stuff shots things


The idea of putting MAnz and nobz in the same transport is intriguing thought, they also would fit in a trukk as min mobs


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
It’s all about point costs
But technically blasts for boy blobs and da jumping 30+ boys isn’t a massive issue considering you can’t shoot blast weapons into combat...

Meaning get your boys locked into combat!!! If someone is playing IG with a bunch of basilisks or battle cannon tanks lock them in combat and you effectively neuter these issues.

However it still is a big issue to worry about and going second means da jumping 30 evilsun boys is a risk even if you are able to obscure them with terrain.

So I’m not calling boys gone yet but if they go up in points without any meaningful improvement they will be in bad shape.

At this point I’m just waiting to see the new points. I’m still not sold on mass buggies Outside of the SJD Which is just great.

well you tag the enemy unit, do gak damage because of the engagement range change and then the unit will just fall back, leaving you in the open to be blasted to death
you cant even reliable multicharge anymore... and tripointing is also useless

EDIT:
of course it will all come down to points... but if we can avoid the nerfhammer i think brigades are the way to go. We need those HQ's...

 addnid wrote:

Headbutt coming from reserves doesn't work from what I understood, because if you do so the plane must arrive 9' away form enemies. Which sucks !!!!!

I hope I understood it wrong

True, I forgot about that. But you can still do a bombing run T1 and keep it save for a turn when your opponent hopefully lacks the means to destroy it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RedNoak wrote:
Damn... You are right... God this is stupid. This means flyers can only re-enter the battlefield from your own edge... Since flyers are usually bigger than 6" and therefore cannot be set up wholly within 6

In 9th only the base counts, everything else may hang off the board.

Also good news for those planing onto a crusade - apparently you can buy pre-game upgrades with requisition points to upgrade a unit *permanently*. When a crusade has gone on long enough, you can have all sorts of skarboyz, 'ard boyz and kustom jobs on your Waaagh! plus a pile of CP.

When aircraft come out of strategic reserves (ie which is what happens after they've flown off the board) they can be placed anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from the enemy. (BRB 257)

So you don't need to adhere to the battlefield edge rule with aircraft

My bet is that Ghaz is gonna be supreme commander.

Burna bomber, IF they survive T1, can autoadvance out of the board, after bombing and position themselves for a T2 potential explosion, or t3 bombing and exploding .

Melee is not that but MSU is gonna be heavily pushed in this edition

Thoughts on kan wall?

Kanz, Grot Tanks, and Mega Grot Tanks probably will suck horribly unless you burn the cp for another detachment to utilize Grot Mobz.
I'd be shocked if theyre cheap enough w/o Grot Mobz to be viable. And at that point, are they really worth the cp investment? Difficult to say both because no points known and also grots dont eat ANY cp on their own so in a sense they arent taking more cp than usual.

 Emicrania wrote:
My bet is that Ghaz is gonna be supreme commander.

Burna bomber, IF they survive T1, can autoadvance out of the board, after bombing and position themselves for a T2 potential explosion, or t3 bombing and exploding .

Melee is not that but MSU is gonna be heavily pushed in this edition

Thoughts on kan wall?

Evil Suns Kan Wall w/ Visions (re-roll all hits in CC too), or Tin 'eads is probably solid. But that's if you wanna take 2 detachments. I dunno if you'd wanna go mono either.

I'm also not sure why you'd care about Mega Nobs as ES at this point? Unless you really are gungho about deep strike and charge. It's really not hard to make it to the middle of the board, even slogging. Deathguard terminators (in that battle rep) were on the objective turn 2.

The biggest problem with kanz in 8e was the morale. Now, even by themselves they are not that horribly in danger, especially in @ group of 9. I'll do some mathammer asap but their staying power should be similar to MANz for fairly the same price. Just an idea.

The biggest question is which and how many detachment shall we take?

 Emicrania wrote:
The biggest problem with kanz in 8e was the morale. Now, even by themselves they are not that horribly in danger, especially in @ group of 9. I'll do some mathammer asap but their staying power should be similar to MANz for fairly the same price. Just an idea.

The biggest question is which and how many detachment shall we take?

KK only go up to 6. I'd probably just do a 5 man squad so blast / coherency is not an issue. I wanna try them out with a Wartrike w/ Breakin' heads, so he can keep them healthy and let them advance/charge.

If you wanna flavour in your list, you'll mix in a patrol with your bat. If you want max CP, Deathskulls or Freebootas.

O right, dunno why i was so sure it was 9 . I would still risk 6 of them, but again points will be the deal-breaker

i dont see their morale being any better, i actually see it as ever so slightly worse.

They had LD6, if they lost 1 then on a roll of a 6 a whole other kan ran. I rarely had people pump excessive shots into them to kill half or more of the squad in one go, more like toss a few into it instead of potentially overkilling something more threatening. Even in Grot Mobz squads they simply werent dangerous enough to justify the full anti-tank focus until they were about to charge or thats all thats left anyway.
Now they still lose that 1 walker but can potentially lose another even if you only lost 1 to begin with. Its the singular instance where the new morale rules are bad, if you would only lose 1 in the old rules you might lose more in the new rules.
There is thankfully the 1s always pass rule now but i dont see it being enough of an offset.

i still would never, ever run them w/o a Breaking 'Eadz guy around.

Kanz with Tin eadz bonus, a kustom job (+3''M or +1BS if they have rokkits and there isn't a morkanaut in the list) and an army with redundancy on armored stuff may work.

They're a supporting unit though, as always, so they need some synergies with other stuff to perform. If they are cheap enough they could even work as backfield babysitters, just like dreads, or if they got the movement upgrade they can try to claim and hold an objective.

Grot Mobz may work only with lots of mek gunz, and only as a second detachment. I still have hope that a full Tin Eadz army could be viable.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont see their morale being any better, i actually see it as ever so slightly worse.

They had LD6, if they lost 1 then on a roll of a 6 a whole other kan ran. I rarely had people pump excessive shots into them to kill half or more of the squad in one go, more like toss a few into it instead of potentially overkilling something more threatening. Even in Grot Mobz squads they simply werent dangerous enough to justify the full anti-tank focus until they were about to charge or thats all thats left anyway.
Now they still lose that 1 walker but can potentially lose another even if you only lost 1 to begin with. Its the singular instance where the new morale rules are bad, if you would only lose 1 in the old rules you might lose more in the new rules.
There is thankfully the 1s always pass rule now but i dont see it being enough of an offset.

i still would never, ever run them w/o a Breaking 'Eadz guy around.

If you lost one Kan a the time yes. Personally mine where either brought to half strength, either ignored. Cheap rokkit could be huge

I'm of the opinion that we were already CP starved in 8th and really not keen on running multiple detachments now in 9th. So I would personally go mono-freeboota if I wanted to run a bunch of kanz and/or mek gunz, as then they'd at least contribute to the rest of the army's kultur in a simple and doable manner.

9th will probably be even more MSU than 8th and doesn't punish players as harshly for losing units so at least theoretically getting that kultur to pop off should be easier than ever IMO.

The SJD has another job in a Freeboota list so you can still bring them there too.
The aura is specifically"while in 24" of a unit that has killed an enemy unit this phase" which means if the SJD zaps something dead he can for 1 cp immediately tellyport wherever you want that aura to be and affect your whole army lol.
Less likely to happen as Freeboota since he lacks rerolls, but still pretty likely.

 Blackie wrote:
Kanz with Tin eadz bonus, a kustom job (+3''M or +1BS if they have rokkits and there isn't a morkanaut in the list) and an army with redundancy on armored stuff may work.

They're a supporting unit though, as always, so they need some synergies with other stuff to perform. If they are cheap enough they could even work as backfield babysitters, just like dreads, or if they got the movement upgrade they can try to claim and hold an objective.

Grot Mobz may work only with lots of mek gunz, and only as a second detachment. I still have hope that a full Tin Eadz army could be viable.

They are honestly viable w/ Grot mobs too, you just wanna babysit them with a Waaaagh banner as well (which presents other problems). 5+ to hit sucks in CC. But they are technically strongest w/ banner as a Grot mob, getting 4+ to hit, re-roll ones, with a 6++ save as a backup if the KFF is out of range.

I think it boils down to points. If Big Shoota KK really cost the same as Mega Nobs though, you really do have a good case for them. They are bulky Mega Nobs basically, especially with Tin 'Eads.

I would bet there is gonna be a bonkers good list which just takes as many Mega Nobs and KK as you can muster, and floods the centre with these chonky boy wounds. They might get shot off the board turn 3/4, but by then, you've won.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The SJD has another job in a Freeboota list so you can still bring them there too.
The aura is specifically"while in 24" of a unit that has killed an enemy unit this phase" which means if the SJD zaps something dead he can for 1 cp immediately tellyport wherever you want that aura to be and affect your whole army lol.
Less likely to happen as Freeboota since he lacks rerolls, but still pretty likely.

If they don’t change the SJD to a BS bonus, I don’t see it killing a unit (unless you bring many of them).