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Do the new transport rules mean that, for example, Ork Tankbustas in a Trukk would not be able to use their 're-roll hit rolls against vehicles' ability?

rule in question:

yeah thats weirdly worded...

Tank hunters and bomb squigs are an 'ability' as is dakka dakka ere we go and mob rule

I think they mean 'outside' abilities like auras and such... but yeah... strictly speaking they cant :/
I really need to get myself a BRB

I bet it's likely you can't target them with Auras / abilities / stratagems.

It would be weird if exploding 6's didn't happen if you were transported, for instance, so I doubt it would be what they intended.

RedNoak wrote:
yeah thats weirdly worded...

Tank hunters and bomb squigs are an 'ability' as is dakka dakka ere we go and mob rule

I think they mean 'outside' abilities like auras and such... but yeah... strictly speaking they cant :/
I really need to get myself a BRB

Yeah, it makes sense for the outside abilities — I don't think they had open-topped transports in mind when they wrote this, so it could be solved by just changing the open-topped rule to specifically allow the embarked unit's abilities to affect it.
Also you can download the 9th core rules on their website:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/02/free-core-rules-new-models-sighted/

I think rules as written you cannot use the abilities on the units datasheet.
I think this will get resolved in a FAQ or a rule in the complete rule book (there is apparently a glossary at the end).
It's worth emailing these questions to the FAQ team: 40kfaq AT gwplc.com. There's a lot of questions we'll want answered (EG open topped, SJD, and Deffrolla) and the more they see it asked the more they'll address it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I didnt even finish watching that video. I saw the painboy bit and went "HA! HAHA! Zog off you dont know what youre talking about"

If the painboy had better stats for himself like Grotsnik we'd actually use him, because the FNP aura alone is not worth it anymore. Grotsnik at least is a beatstick in his own right.

They released a 9th ed mash up between Orks and Death guard here;

https://youtu.be/C7NGKyw30l0

Worth a watch, particularly until the very end. Makes great use of a burna boma dishing out 30mw's in one go. Very nice.
The combo of KFF and FnP proved very useful in providing the staying power needed for the midfield board control. Not my favourite list at all, but an informative and instructive game.

Oh for sure if youre going heavy (3+) full squads of boyz a painboy if you cant bring grotsnik is essential, at those numbers the fink WILL save enough boyz to be worth it.
Generally i find if its only 1-2 squads, he aint worth it. The ultimate problem is he doesnt do anything else, yeah its a PK but its a PK on a very squishy (why doesnt he have a 4+...) model that hits on 4s with 3 attacks so not exactly amazing.

I still find it amusing when that new painboy model appeared in 7th everyone was pissed we couldnt give him a PK, despite clearly being modelled with a special powerklaw syringe hybrid. They nerf PK to the ground with the whole multi-damage mechanic and give it to the painboy by force, now we dont want it lol.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Oh for sure if youre going heavy (3+) full squads of boyz a painboy if you cant bring grotsnik is essential, at those numbers the fink WILL save enough boyz to be worth it.
Generally i find if its only 1-2 squads, he aint worth it. The ultimate problem is he doesnt do anything else, yeah its a PK but its a PK on a very squishy (why doesnt he have a 4+...) model that hits on 4s with 3 attacks so not exactly amazing.

I still find it amusing when that new painboy model appeared in 7th everyone was pissed we couldnt give him a PK, despite clearly being modelled with a special powerklaw syringe hybrid. They nerf PK to the ground with the whole multi-damage mechanic and give it to the painboy by force, now we dont want it lol.

I think the up to date model is wielding a powerklaw. It's the old metal model with the squatting pose and the orderly that gives you the option to use a killsaw. I could be wrong though, that was always my assumption.

 r_squared wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I didnt even finish watching that video. I saw the painboy bit and went "HA! HAHA! Zog off you dont know what youre talking about"

If the painboy had better stats for himself like Grotsnik we'd actually use him, because the FNP aura alone is not worth it anymore. Grotsnik at least is a beatstick in his own right.

They released a 9th ed mash up between Orks and Death guard here;

https://youtu.be/C7NGKyw30l0

Worth a watch, particularly until the very end. Makes great use of a burna boma dishing out 30mw's in one go. Very nice.
The combo of KFF and FnP proved very useful in providing the staying power needed for the midfield board control. Not my favourite list at all, but an informative and instructive game.

I watched some of that as well since it contained both my armies. I don't have the patience to watch 3 hours of someone playing 40k though, so do you know if they used the KFF in melee?

 Jidmah wrote:

 r_squared wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I didnt even finish watching that video. I saw the painboy bit and went "HA! HAHA! Zog off you dont know what youre talking about"

If the painboy had better stats for himself like Grotsnik we'd actually use him, because the FNP aura alone is not worth it anymore. Grotsnik at least is a beatstick in his own right.

They released a 9th ed mash up between Orks and Death guard here;

https://youtu.be/C7NGKyw30l0

Worth a watch, particularly until the very end. Makes great use of a burna boma dishing out 30mw's in one go. Very nice.
The combo of KFF and FnP proved very useful in providing the staying power needed for the midfield board control. Not my favourite list at all, but an informative and instructive game.

I watched some of that as well since it contained both my armies. I don't have the patience to watch 3 hours of someone playing 40k though, so do you know if they used the KFF in melee?

Yes, throughout. It made a significant difference.
It looks very bleak for orks for 95% of the game points wise but the ending is quite surprising. The new points scoring mechanic certainly seems to change things significantly. They imply that the way this game went is not unusual in their experience.

I see, thanks. With overwatch gone and KFF working in melee maybe battlewagon boyz might make sense if I can get the mek and grotznik in there somehow.

So what type of lists are people theorycrafting at the moment for going into ninth?

I'm personally leaning towards a dreadbash list, with grots and maybe a blob of boys bubbled around a KFF mek to hold objectives on the home plate.

To be honest though that's just to use my deff dreads as I love the models and I'm sick of painting boys haha.

This being said I can still actually see a use for boys spam in lists. One blob gets jumped turn one, one is bubbled around a KFF mek until it gets jumped, and blobs of stormboys in reserves. There aren't actually thaaat many blast weapons knocking about that will be doing that much more damage per shot that we haven't kind of broken even against with most of overwatch going.

None. We need points first

I think there is lots of potential in strategic reserves for orks, as it allows you to reserve any units with PL<19 for less CP than the tellyporta.

I think Boyz staying in KFF range, no longer da jumping (unless the oppenent fails to screen juicy stuff), might be the way forward.
Primaris stuff means everyone needs to bring high AP multiwound stuff stand a chance, desn't it ? So boyz under KFF will be a nightmare to remove.

Smaller board tables mean evil sunz boyz with a big boss nearby hanve an effective assault threat range which is gonna be pretty scary.

Now for points on dem ladz, like Jid says... 8 PPM and there might not be much point in bringing dem boyz... 60 boyz + an unchanged KFF mek (unlikely) would be 539 points. Seems like a bit much. Take 60 points out of this total, and you have something nice

 Afrodactyl wrote:
So what type of lists are people theorycrafting at the moment for going into ninth?

I'm personally leaning towards a dreadbash list, with grots and maybe a blob of boys bubbled around a KFF mek to hold objectives on the home plate.
....

From what I've observed so far from several games both live and online is that board control is crucial and the smaller table size benefits the mid range. However, it's not enough to have firepower, staying power is more relevant to scoring.
Another interesting observation is that slower units are no longer as hampered by table sizes and really come into their own.

As the game gets played more I think we'll see some interesting developments. My gut says that our strong units will be nobs and meganobs backed by Boyz. This could be a good edition for us, we are well placed with a variety of tools in our own codex without having to soup.

I'm not as convinced about points being so much of a problem seeing as every faction will get a bump. It's all to do with proportionality. As long as our increases aren't more excessive than other codex's, we should be fine.

Its sounding to me like meganobz as well, not so much regular nobz as they kinda got hurt by the blast rules.
They simply suicide if you take them at full strength (10+2), and you cant take the 2nd ammo runt unless you have 10 nobz unfortunately, so 9+1 is the new "max" but only 1 squishy for a multi-damage attack sucks.

Thats for objective camping though, not for killing. Killing is gonna be buggies and walkers. KBB's especially feel extra special, given their anti-primaris gun that keeps shooting if theyre stuck in combat after they spiked ram charge.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Its sounding to me like meganobz as well, not so much regular nobz as they kinda got hurt by the blast rules.
They simply suicide if you take them at full strength (10+2), and you cant take the 2nd ammo runt unless you have 10 nobz unfortunately, so 9+1 is the new "max" but only 1 squishy for a multi-damage attack sucks.

Thats for objective camping though, not for killing. Killing is gonna be buggies and walkers. KBB's especially feel extra special, given their anti-primaris gun that keeps shooting if theyre stuck in combat after they spiked ram charge.

The video I shared showed how important the counter charge is and I think boyz and Nobz cold be useful in this. A unit of 5 with big choppas can deal with most opponents very effectively plus I think blast will not hurt us as much as we fear.
The use of grots to shield as you move up the table was also interesting. Positioning them to force an opponent to charge or shoot them in such a way as to place your own effective counter charge better.
Meganobz definitely useful for camping midfield, but Id be inclined to bring a mix of nobz to back them up.

I do also agree that buggies may do a lot of good work for us, possibly even bikes too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
I see, thanks. With overwatch gone and KFF working in melee maybe battlewagon boyz might make sense if I can get the mek and grotznik in there somehow.

I think you maybe onto something with battle wagons. Providing protection and delivery as well as a degree of staying power, with kff and painboys you could have 3 (6 with the boyz inside) tough stubborn units with mobility.
Definitely worth an experiment.

Quick idea,
Deathskulls battalion
3x kff meks,
3x pain boys
3X Boss nob big choppa, 17x slugga boys
3x Ard case Battle wagons with deffrollas
Current points 1170

Add maybe 10% for new points, 1287 points leaving 700 points for burna bommas, smasha guns, grots etc
It's possible. Ymmv

Boyz mobs need to be at full strength to get that extra attack - that's why I was wondering how to get the KFF and the doc in range
I wouldn't bother with a painboyz at all though, just grotznik because he is a monster in combat and hard to kill. Average don't properly reflect how unreliable those 6+++ saves are.

thats why earlier i said unless you got like 90+ boyz a regular painboy is worthless. 90 boyz he's bound to save enough to be justified, but never bank on that 6+++
Grotsnik is rude enough where even if i have a vehicle list i probably have him floating around the random squad of nobz i got. The 6+++ is a bonus, i want HIM lol

You might need to Dajump a 30man squad thats sitting in the back "safe" right as the wagon rolls up that has the mek, grotsnik, and a selection of nobz disembark. They'd be 9" away sadly but they'd be full strength. Even if you had a second wagon with 20 boyz they wont stay 20, i'd burn my overwatch on them purely because if i kill 1 model thats 20(+the dead model) less attacks i gotta deal with.
I'd rather run them in 2x10 squads at that point for an extra powerklaw, especially since leadership isnt as massive of a penalty now.

I think people overestimate the +1A on a unit of boyz. Even if a full mob of 30 manages to charge at full strenght how many boyz can actually fight in combat with the new rules? 15? And +15 S4 no AP attacks plus one extra attack from the nob don't make any significant difference. Boyz charges tipycally end up doing little damage against armored stuff or overkilling a weak unit.

Damage inflicted by a unit of 20 boyz isn't much superior than damage caused by a unit of 19.

I think it's perfectly fine to charge with units of 15-18 boyz. But I also like the idea of 2x10 squads in a wagon, in fact I've done it several times during index era and now morale is better for min squads and there's also the triple re-roll for both nobz' klaws which didn't exist in index times.

 Jidmah wrote:
Boyz mobs need to be at full strength to get that extra attack - that's why I was wondering how to get the KFF and the doc in range
I wouldn't bother with a painboyz at all though, just grotznik because he is a monster in combat and hard to kill. Average don't properly reflect how unreliable those 6+++ saves are.

I'll be honest, if I was going for the extra attack, a mob of 20 Boyz in a battle wagon is never going to deliver that. Casualty attrition determines you need at least 30 for it to be a consideration.
I was theorising this idea around maximising the survivability of the units as a whole. A mob of 18 Boyz supported in this way will require investment by your opponent to delete, the new morale also helps here too. A mix of units around an objective, tough vehicles and multiple infantry also forces your opponent to allocate resources to deal with them. Some may excel at killing infantry but struggle with the BW.

I think the old ideas will take a while to drift away and the new ones to settle in as accepted. I was an early advocate of the SSAG, I remember the resistance to the concept based on the old ideas. People didn't recognise the strengths inherent in the idea until it started appearing regularly.

Painboys I'm either way on tbh. I think of them as a whole force multiplier rather than in a purely mathematical way. Their utility as 6+++ bubble is only part of the story, their ability to heal models can also add up over the course of a game. Obvious applications include character healing, but they can also help save the odd boy model if positioned well. For example, allocate a wound to a boss nob rather than take off a boy, and use the pain boy to heal him.
They're also a low priority target and likely to survive well towards the end of the game. Mine have usually regained most of their points value when I have played them.

But, it's still early to say what will work and what won't. If Boyz go up in value, but the painboy stays the same he actually becomes better without changing at all.

Both math and my experience disagree with that. The difference between 45 attacks and 60 is huge, especially when stringing at single wound infantry. Heck, even the additional klaw attack might make a difference.

 Jidmah wrote:
Both math and my experience disagree with that. The difference between 45 attacks and 60 is huge, especially when stringing at single wound infantry. Heck, even the additional klaw attack might make a difference.

I think the new engagement rules will make people think about trying to get 20+ units into combat, purely to compensate for the potential loss of attacks from those unable to engage.

 Jidmah wrote:
Both math and my experience disagree with that. The difference between 45 attacks and 60 is huge, especially when stringing at single wound infantry. Heck, even the additional klaw attack might make a difference.

I have opposite feelings due to my experience. Against low armor single wound infantries 45 attack are tipycally enough to delete the squad, against tanks +15 attacks don't make any difference. 15 attacks are 10 hits, 5 wounds with no ap against T4 models so not even a single dead primaris on average, and against armored stuff it's even worse as the average says 3 wounds ap- against T5+ and less than 2 wounds against T8, so basically 0 maybe 1 lucky wound that goes through saves against multiwounds models. Against T3 there may be some difference but 45 attacks still cause 20 wounds before saves, enough to kill 10-15 man squads and 60 deal 27, not enough to kill 20+ man squads. Basically +1A is only worthy if boyz clash against blobs which is not what they usually should fight, and in 9th hordes could be even more uncommon. Or for multicharges, which will be even more uncommon in 9th.

Most of the times I got my boyz into a fight they either overkilled a screening unit/MSU squad or just tarpit an armored unit for a turn.

The single additional nob attack may be worthy of the size bonus, but it's not gamebreaking to lose it. I've always had the feeling in this edition that the real bonus of the full size of the squad is the ability of soaking more firepower before getting shot of the board.

Not many actually tried to get them all into combat. The 20+ bodies are there so if you lose a few (which will happen) you still swing at "full strength" so-to-speak. I can only recall one instance where i actually attacked with more than 15 bodies, and that only happened because my opponent got 5" from me, failed the charge, and i was able to completely surround him with 25 boyz in the wide open.

I'd also assume that ~10 boyz are more likely what is going to swing in future. From playing around with some models I have the feeling that anything beyond the second row is not going to be fighting - which is a huge difference down from up to four rows being able to fight.

Had my first game of 9th, did 1k points and just played the default mission supplied in the core rules PDF. We played on a 48"x48" table as the 44"x30" battlefield seemed a little small given the size of our lists. I've attached a picture of what the battlefield looked like. We conjectured that our lists would equate to roughly equate to ~1250 points in 9th so the extra space was warranted. My opponent played Druhkari, I don't actually know too much about what he had tbh. Here's my list:


I learned hard into the Kustom Jobs given how few stratagems I could properly utilise. I wanted to give SJD's a go but RAW they hit on 4's now so wasn't feeling enthused. I chose KBB's instead as it finally made sense to charge with them, given I could shoot in melee the subsequent turn. I ran Ghaz just to experiment with him as well, smaller table sizes + the abilitiy for him to shoot in melee was really enticing. Made him my warlord just to get him the extra attack.
Basically first turn I zoomed ghaz and my wartrike to objective 2, which was located inbewteen two ruins. The two HQ's where too far away to charge anything, and with the new obscure rule they were able to hide from my opponents anti tank (2 units of 2 talos I think). This ended up setting the pace for most of the game. I had my KBB's and MTSJ's deployed on my left hand side of the map and gave them a study push towards objective 3 on the map. My gretchin just sat on objective 1 for the whole game. I was able to kill one of the 4 talos in my first turn.
On my opponents turn he held objectives 4 and 3 with some troops and sent down some melee infantry and his talos down towards objective 2 from the left side. He had to to turn the corner around the ruins on the right side to get line of sight on my wartrike in order to shoot at it, almost killing it. He struggled to focus fire due to the ruins obscuring my vehicles for half his units. He charged my wartrike and I gambled on overwatch and was able to land two shots with gorks roar melta profile, using the clan trait and CP re-roll to guarantee the wound rolls to successfully kill another talos. He ended up failing that charge. He was able to get into melee on the other side of objective 2. He managed to get some melee infantry charged into one of my MTSJ's and destroyed it immediately after.
When it came around to my turn it I was in prime position to counter charge all his melee units with my HQ's and half my buggies. I gave one of my KBB's the burning highway and zoomed it off to go kill one of two troop units at objective 3 and then charge the one that remained alive.
His next turn left him with very few choices and he was forced to just try to try and fight his way out, but by then he had no meaningful AT and I had numbers on him. From that point onward I just played clean up and tabled him by the end of my 4th turn.

Some of my main take aways from this game:
-Generating CP each turn enabled me to sprinkle in a few stratagems without worrying about running out.
-Obscuring terrain can be a powerful tool you can use to your advantage. I was able to deny my opponents biggest threat from shooting me and lure them within charge range of my beat stick.
-The Kustom Job for the KBB and Wartrike aren't bad, they're worth the 1CP each. The MTSJ Kustom Job is incredible.
-Deathskulls on buggies is fantastic for skewing the odds in your favour, I consistently hit 3 shots for each of my Rivet Guns and Rokkit Kannons.
-Using vehicles and monsters in melee feels a lot stronger. If you pick your targets right you can tag them and leave them with no good choices.
-Being able to use a Patrol without it being a penalty was incredibly freeing, you can make a lot of interesting lists with a patrol.

On the whole I feel positive about 9th. I'm especially liking the new terrain rules and emphasis on a smaller board. There are a lot of ways that Orks can take advantage of this.

 r_squared wrote:


From what I've observed so far from several games both live and online is that board control is crucial and the smaller table size benefits the mid range. However, it's not enough to have firepower, staying power is more relevant to scoring.
Another interesting observation is that slower units are no longer as hampered by table sizes and really come into their own.

As the game gets played more I think we'll see some interesting developments. My gut says that our strong units will be nobs and meganobs backed by Boyz. This could be a good edition for us, we are well placed with a variety of tools in our own codex without having to soup.

I'm not as convinced about points being so much of a problem seeing as every faction will get a bump. It's all to do with proportionality. As long as our increases aren't more excessive than other codex's, we should be fine.

Yeah it seems accurate too.

I'm actually not sure if infantry actually need transport, outside of the transport being useful (say, A bonebreaker or Battlewagon w/ Deff Rolla, assuming it still hits on 2+).

I am 100% going to be going with DS Mega nobs or Tin 'Eads over Evil Suns, because I'm not convinced the movement is relevant, but Obsec and/or hitting on 3's is. I also think DS -> Charge is going to be harder to pull off, because it's a lot easier to screen out a smaller board, and even more so with MSU.

Outflank seems interesting but more so for shooting units, not CC.

Depending on the cost of trukks (even with a general price hike, they should at most stay the same cost IMO) there might be some play with using trukks to place on objectives and/or make charges more difficult for your opponent. Needing to hit everything in a multicharge means that just getting to add a few extra inches to get to something juicier than a trukk might not be a worthwhile gamble for your opponent.

Assuming grots are at most 4ppm then I'd say they're a pretty big winner just by the new morale alone. I can't count the amount of times where my opponent wiped 6-7 of them and while the rest were now out of LoS they also autofail morale. Just having 1-2 rando grots left to raise banners or hold objectives might be what wins you several games. A unit of less than 5 grots is super easy to hide and that bodes well for the objective game IMO.

 Quackzo wrote:
[...]
Some of my main take aways from this game:
-Generating CP each turn enabled me to sprinkle in a few stratagems without worrying about running out.
-Obscuring terrain can be a powerful tool you can use to your advantage. I was able to deny my opponents biggest threat from shooting me and lure them within charge range of my beat stick.
-The Kustom Job for the KBB and Wartrike aren't bad, they're worth the 1CP each. The MTSJ Kustom Job is incredible.
-Deathskulls on buggies is fantastic for skewing the odds in your favour, I consistently hit 3 shots for each of my Rivet Guns and Rokkit Kannons.
-Using vehicles and monsters in melee feels a lot stronger. If you pick your targets right you can tag them and leave them with no good choices.
-Being able to use a Patrol without it being a penalty was incredibly freeing, you can make a lot of interesting lists with a patrol.

On the whole I feel positive about 9th. I'm especially liking the new terrain rules and emphasis on a smaller board. There are a lot of ways that Orks can take advantage of this.

Great battle report, thank you for that

I have found the kustom job on the KBB to not do a whole lot in my games, what's your experience with this in specific?