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 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

It also seems highly unlikely that you will be scoring 90 points in a game, if you get 15-20 VP for primary and secondary combined in a single turn that might already put yourself well ahead of your opponent,

So those +10VP for being 100% battle ready may actually have a significant impact on the game.

Absolutely. In our game, if I had a fully painted army I would have won instead of lost (we both had unpainted models).
What actually won my DA opponent the game was the first strike secondary - one that can never score a full 15 VP. No amount of banner raising could mitigate that 8VP head start he got from clearing out my pox walkers and gunning down two characters with helblasters. He commented that he would probably drop eliminators now for something that can clear out screens, as it's a much more effective way of killing characters.
I feel like this secondary might be very interesting for mech orks as well as you get 5 VP for killing a unit turn one and another 3 if you kill more units than your opponent. One of my major takeaway from the game was that getting 8 VP from a single secondary is a lot. A gut feeling is that to win a game you need to get at about 10 VP per turn, primary and secondary combined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thoughts on terrain: It does a lot less than expected, but a lot more than 8th edition did. Cover is handed out much more easily, but you also need to get out of cover more to win games. Probably a slight advantage for orks.

Units being out of sight due to obscuring terrain happened from time to time, but these rules cut both ways. If you deep strike a unit behind a ruin without touching it, it can't be shot - but it can't shoot anything either. Important to keep in mind when bringing in shooty things from reserves.

Ruins have become weird. They are all defensible, so when you charge infantry inside a ruins they get +1 in combat to hit you. When you are dealing with shock-assault chainsword primaris, this can add up to a lot of pain. On the other hand, upper floors are now death traps - if you move underneath a unit sitting in a ruin, the only way for them to fall back is by going up - if that's possible. I had a single DG character trap an entire unit of helblasters and a librarian in combat with no chance to get away from it, as the ruin was more than 3" so they couldn't consolidate downwards or complete a move in coherency without being in engagement range. This is something that MANz, buggies or biker characters can exploit, as their large bases can trap units on upper floors as well. Eventually, people will start screening to prevent things like this from happening.

Barricades are even more weird. They are great for getting cover, but moving across them is nigh impossible, as going around is usually faster. On top of that, you can "charge" a barricade to fight models 2" behind it, so you don't actually lose that distance when fighting units hinding behind it - and you the charging unit gets +1 to saves as well.

 Jidmah wrote:
Barricades are even more weird. They are great for getting cover, but moving across them is nigh impossible, as going around is usually faster. On top of that, you can "charge" a barricade to fight models 2" behind it, so you don't actually lose that distance when fighting units hinding behind it - and you the charging unit gets +1 to saves as well.

how does that work?

OK found it

but you could only fight with models in direct contact with the barricade, right?

Right. While the rules sound weird, it feels very "right" when you do it on the battlefield. In our case, the "barricades" were the ones you get with speed freeks and the ADL.

Turns out the useless speed freeks board now works perfectly fine for partrol and incursion games

im guessing the piles of junk just follow the 3" from the terrain rule now?
That was the main issue with terrain in 8th, if it wasnt a defined "area" it literally did nothing but block LoS (and typically if it wasnt a defined area terrain it wasnt big enough to block LoS)
All they did was clutter the board and do absolutely nothing lol

First strike seems odd, because your opponent can easily deny you the VPs on it if their army is relatively mobile (or hell, even goes second, since they wanna be hiding anyway).

I would wager that one is a bit of a trap.

But the nice thing is, of course, you can always swap out secondaries depending what you're facing.

It's not that easy to hide when you don't have any of that "first floor blocks LoS" nonsense though.

Also, very importantly, you don't know whether you go first or second when deploying. The roll is one of the last things you do before starting the game. If they hide everything, the obscuring terrain rule is coming to bite them when they go first.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's not that easy to hide when you don't have any of that "first floor blocks LoS" nonsense though.

Also, very importantly, you don't know whether you go first or second when deploying. The roll is one of the last things you do before starting the game. If they hide everything, the obscuring terrain rule is coming to bite them when they go first.

To be honest, I imagine a lot of first turns are going to be very, very dull.

Because of the uncertainty of going first, and because gak can still wreck your day, you probably want to deploy defensibly to avoid getting alpha striked. I could see taking first turn largely to just insure you get your chaplain rolls / psychic buffs (whatever) up, even if you have nothing to see / shoot at.

I haven't had a chance to play 9th yet though (I'd rather wait for points and Day 1 FAQs anyway), but denying your opponent 8 VPs seems an easy victory.

You really do need first turn to get into position for grabbing objectives though. If you hide everything, your opponent can instead grab three objectives and score 15 points from that, potentially doing additional action like raising banners on them for even more points.
This doesn't work like ITC where you had to score all or most of your secondaries to win. It be very much be a choice between what scores you to pick up during your turn, unless you are completely curb-stomping your opponent you will never be anywhere near those 90 points. As I said before, you will probably be aiming for 40-50 points to win games.

The game itself works completely differently now, it's hard to explain or understand it if you haven't played it. Most wisdom about movement and deployment from 8th will flat out cost you the game now.

Yeah, I've only played a couple of games of "9th" (we played 1750 assuming that'll be roughly the new 2k) and there's a lot of thought that has to go into deployment IMO. You don't score primaries T1 so standing on objectives at the start of the game (when you don't know if you'll go first or not) might not be a must.

Maxing out on primaries is alpha & omega though and while it's possible to do in 3 turns you'll most likely need 4. I've said it before but I really think that grots (assuming they're 4ppm) will be great in 9th with that massive buff to their morale and really small footprint. Ork speed freek lists will give up super easy (relatively speaking) "bring it down" secondaries though, so consider that.

I think a lot of conventional wisdom from 8th will have to be re-evaluated in 9th, it's much more than a slight shift in how the game actually plays out (especially if you come from a non-ITC environment).

IMHO, coming from ITC, going second is often the best way to start, as you can counter kill more (while we stand we fight) you can position yourself to a better T2 to grab objectives and you are mentally prepared to suffer some losses. Altought might not be the case Vs a heavy gunline, which will suffer in secondaries in 9th.

Durable MSU and veichle APPEAR to be the meta, so we might see an insurgency in MANz and T8 veichle and anything that can dish out MW easily, as every W will count more than it does now. Burna bomber are gonna be a staple. For the rest, points need to be seen, as day 1 FAQ.

 Emicrania wrote:
IMHO, coming from ITC, going second is often the best way to start, as you can counter kill more (while we stand we fight) you can position yourself to a better T2 to grab objectives and you are mentally prepared to suffer some losses. Altought might not be the case Vs a heavy gunline, which will suffer in secondaries in 9th.

Durable MSU and veichle APPEAR to be the meta, so we might see an insurgency in MANz and T8 veichle and anything that can dish out MW easily, as every W will count more than it does now. Burna bomber are gonna be a staple. For the rest, points need to be seen, as day 1 FAQ.

Probably a noob question, but is there a date on when the day 1 FAQ is going to be dropped?

 Emicrania wrote:
IMHO, coming from ITC, going second is often the best way to start, as you can counter kill more (while we stand we fight) you can position yourself to a better T2 to grab objectives and you are mentally prepared to suffer some losses. Altought might not be the case Vs a heavy gunline, which will suffer in secondaries in 9th.

Durable MSU and veichle APPEAR to be the meta, so we might see an insurgency in MANz and T8 veichle and anything that can dish out MW easily, as every W will count more than it does now. Burna bomber are gonna be a staple. For the rest, points need to be seen, as day 1 FAQ.

You liking DS Mega Nobs?

And might this also mean a unit of Tankbustas might be a real nice inclusion?

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
IMHO, coming from ITC, going second is often the best way to start, as you can counter kill more (while we stand we fight) you can position yourself to a better T2 to grab objectives and you are mentally prepared to suffer some losses. Altought might not be the case Vs a heavy gunline, which will suffer in secondaries in 9th.

Durable MSU and veichle APPEAR to be the meta, so we might see an insurgency in MANz and T8 veichle and anything that can dish out MW easily, as every W will count more than it does now. Burna bomber are gonna be a staple. For the rest, points need to be seen, as day 1 FAQ.

Probably a noob question, but is there a date on when the day 1 FAQ is going to be dropped?

If it's a day one FAQ, it's likely that it will drop on the day of the release. After all, you probably can't play the game without it.

The other options is two weeks after release, like most FAQs are supposed to drop.

tulun wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
IMHO, coming from ITC, going second is often the best way to start, as you can counter kill more (while we stand we fight) you can position yourself to a better T2 to grab objectives and you are mentally prepared to suffer some losses. Altought might not be the case Vs a heavy gunline, which will suffer in secondaries in 9th.

Durable MSU and veichle APPEAR to be the meta, so we might see an insurgency in MANz and T8 veichle and anything that can dish out MW easily, as every W will count more than it does now. Burna bomber are gonna be a staple. For the rest, points need to be seen, as day 1 FAQ.

You liking DS Mega Nobs?

And might this also mean a unit of Tankbustas might be a real nice inclusion?

I feel like i might be possible to walk a couple of medium size MANz, depending on how much out of LoS shooting will be prevalent in the meta.
DS tankabusta was a great solution before the PEQ spam and probably will be again a relevant choice, altought buying a BM patrol only for them might be a bummer, since they will eat up already 4 CP with MD and double tap.

15 Tb + (6 squigs) with BM and more Dakka shooting twice does:
26W + (8W) vs KEQ
19.5W + (6W) vs KEQ with IS
34.5W + (10.8W) vs VEQ

same squad with Wreckers does
15.9W + (12.2W) vs KEQ
11.9W + (9.1W) vs KEQ with IS
18.9W + (14.5W) vs VEQ

More dakka, in this case just add
3.5W + (1.9W) vs KEQ
2.5W + (1.5W) vs KEQ with IOS
4.1W (2.3W) vs VEQ

So, in this case the volume of firepower show a clear loss of the tankabusta themselves, but actually a gain for the bombs, that would be increased even more by the DS rerolls. This is also a unit that cost roughly as a Gorka/Morka and is a one trick pony show, So playing it DS it might be the best result in a risk/gain evalutation.

 Emicrania wrote:


I feel like i might be possible to walk a couple of medium size MANz, depending on how much out of LoS shooting will be prevalent in the meta.
DS tankabusta was a great solution before the PEQ spam and probably will be again a relevant choice, altought buying a BM patrol only for them might be a bummer, since they will eat up already 4 CP with MD and double tap.

15 Tb + (6 squigs) with BM and more Dakka shooting twice does:
26W + (8W) vs KEQ
19.5W + (6W) vs KEQ with IS
34.5W + (10.8W) vs VEQ

same squad with Wreckers does
15.9W + (12.2W) vs KEQ
11.9W + (9.1W) vs KEQ with IS
18.9W + (14.5W) vs VEQ

More dakka, in this case just add
3.5W + (1.9W) vs KEQ
2.5W + (1.5W) vs KEQ with IOS
4.1W (2.3W) vs VEQ

So, in this case the volume of firepower show a clear loss of the tankabusta themselves, but actually a gain for the bombs, that would be increased even more by the DS rerolls. This is also a unit that cost roughly as a Gorka/Morka and is a one trick pony show, So playing it DS it might be the best result in a risk/gain evalutation.

I don't think it's worth taking Bad Moons, although very good, it is far too much CP to be worth it just for a 1 trick pony.

I've found success with tankbustas even without using CP. Re-rolling all hits is already *really* good, and DS gets a re-roll to wound innately, so even not using wreckers is not the end of the world. Even hitting on 6's, you hit 30.6% of the time, and each of those generates an extra hit, netting you out about 40% total hit rate.

I really hope Chinorks don't get squatted (it's... probable), as a deep striking unit of 10 (or just move from behind obscuring terrain t1) i think would be incredibly good. They can take a KMB naturally too, so you'd have a triple re-roll plasma gun firing at a unit, as well as 2 Dakka guns which now don't get a move and shoot penalty.

To me it doesn't feel like tank bustas compare well to a sparkly bits morkanaut. Math is difficult on that one, but if you were planning on bringing a SSAG anyways, you might as well use the shoot twice stratagem on the naut and you can drop wreckes on it in addition to that.
Napkin math tells me that the naut has 7 KMB, 2 rokkits and 12 big shootas, which is less than what tank bustas bring, but it has a realistic chance to survive for another turn with no reduction in shooting, while tank bustas die to a stiff breeze. Even if it dies, it takes significant amounts of firepower to do so. And it does provide a KFF for your army.

Great argument there, I'll do the math asap. However in my experience the squigs are ALWAYS the reason why I take tankabusta. They are like hunter killer missile.

I like both options (max TB squad and BS4+ morkanaut) in 8th and actually played both of them, but due to the lack of CPs that comes with 9th edition investing 6 for the tankbustas bomb is really a huge investment. Starting with 18 CPs and in an era when kustom jobs or strategems from PA didn't exist they were an excellent option, as burning those 6 CPs wasn't a big deal, now I don't know.

In armored heavy lists TB in trukks should still be ok though. Of course assuming points don't become crazy on them and they don't lose their re-rolls while embarked. Maybe even outflanking smaller units of bustas eventually covered by gretchins could work.

The SSAG + Sparkyl Bitz naut is an automatic combo. The SSAG alone may not worth the +2CPs (assuming is the 2nd relic) and shooting twice with it is nice but not always worthy, however the possibility of shooting twice with either a SSAG or a more accurate naut makes the investment for the Dread Waaagh Detachment more juicy. Since PA I don't think I've ever brought the SSAG without a naut.

I feel like a morkanaut being 18 wounds, so you get all the negatives from obscuring terrain, really has to be taken into consideration. Unless you're bringing a whole lot of T8 on the table I'm guessing they'll be popped quicker than ever in a (quite possibly) more vehicle heavy meta.

The point is that tank bustas die even faster and have less range. And even then, any multi-wound T5+ model serves for target saturation, including mek guns and burna bommers, which will remain staples for any ork list.

9th also works differently, it's quite likely that people will prioritize things that are scoring points of a big stompy robot, and obscuring terrain matters a lot less than you might expect from playing 8th. Scoring and denying VP is vastly more important than killing things.

Personally I'm not sold on tankbustas either, but they've never done what I want them to in a game (and that might be on me). But taking equivalent point in MANZ is something I'd look into instead. The upgraded morkanaut is great but I really dislike the fact that it's one per army seeing as kustom jobs are unique and as such it'll often be singled out.

Re: obscuring terrain I think it'll depend on where people play. I often play with people who have their own GW terrain (and almost all of which is obscuring due to GW mostly making ruins) and then it's a huge deal. We'll see how tournies handle it, will "NOVA L's" still be a thing, or phased out with obscuring?

I still think Morkanauts bring enough dakka (and CC potential) that a lot of people will single them out with their AT firepower and fast armies can hide out of their LoS by continuously circling so they have a piece of obscuring terrain between them. I could be wrong, but I could see certain armies being capable of abusing that.

EDIT: From Mob Rules about Orks (counting us a net loss):
Orks
a. Poor Orks. As Danny is a sometimes Ork player, the big funguses really have a soft spot in his heart. I think this army will just have to drastically change the way that they approach the table from the way that they currently play – i.e. the change from Hordes to a more mechanized approach. Things that are good – all the buggies only went up 10 points, and some have decreased weapon costs as well. Trukks went up one point, and things like Battlewagons and its ilk only got slight points rises. In addition, the HQ section (with one exception) only got slight points increases as well. Ork Boyz only got a 1 point price increase (Great!), and Meganobz only got an overall 4 point increase! Great! However, the building block of a lot of Ork lists, Grots, went up quite a lot – 5 points a model. This is extremely expensive for a unit that dies in droves and it is very unfortunate. One of the other big increases was the Shokk Attack Gun Big Mek – going from 80 points to a whopping 120 points – a 50% increase. This seems excessive, but this model (especially with the Relic SAG), was incredible usually one turn per game and picks up something really valuable. We will see how well Orks can shift into a more mechanized and faster army, but we at Mob Rules have faith that Gork and Mork will see us through.

The thing with obscuring terrain is that you have to stay outside of its base to be hidden by it, once you touch the area terrain, you become visible. So you can't actually hide inside those NOVA L's anymore, you need to stand *behind* them, at which point it's quite easy to line up shots for much more mobile vehicles or walkers.

Apparently NDAs have lifted, so points now being leaked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQY932e6hN4&feature=youtu.be

Boyz are 8 pts a model. Gretchin 5. Woof.

Big Mek in Mega Armour 85
- Grot Oiler 5
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun 95
- Grot Oiler 5
Big Mek with KFF 60
Defilla Wartrike 125
Warboss 70
Weirdboy 75
Boss Snikrot 75
Boss Zagstruk 95
Ghazghkull Traka 300
Makari 65
Kaptin Badrukk 90
- Ammo Runt 5
Mad Dok Grotsnik 90

Boyz 8
Gretchin 5

Burna Boyz 11
Kommandos 9
Meganobz 25
Mek 25
- Grot Oiler 5
Nob with Waaagh! Banner 85
Nobz 17
- Ammo Runts 5
Nobz on Warbikes 35
Painboy 55
Runtherd 40
Tankbustas 7
- Bomb Squigs 10


Boomdakka Snazzwagons 85
Deffkoptas 25
Kustom Boosta-blasta 90
Megatrakk Scrapjets 90
Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies 110
Shokkjump Dragstas 100
Stormboyz 12
Warbikers 27

Battlewagon 135
Bonebreaka 160
Deff Dreads 55
Flash Gitz 32
- Ammo Runts 5
Gorkanaut 285
Gunwagon 160
Killa Kans 45
Lootas 20
Mek Gunz 20
Morkanaut 270

Blitza-bommer 130
Burna-bommer 125
Dakkajet 110
Wazbom Blastajet 140

Stompa 850

Mekboy workshop 85

Trukk 60

Will do wargear next, some stuff is included in baseprice that wasn't in 8th

Hot take? Most of the vehicles have not really changed all that much. For example, the buggies have all had minor tweaks (plus or minus ten points over their 8th ed. Numbers) but are functionally the same. It seems to be the core troops that have had he biggest notable increase.

Also - Stompa is 850, LOL

Big shoota 5
Bubblechukka 30
Burna 0
Burna bottles 0
Burna exhaust 0
Dakkagun 0
Deffgun 0
Defkannon 0
Deffstorm mega-shoota 0
Grot blasta 0
Grotzooka 10
Heavy squig launcha 0
Kannon 15
Killa jet 0
Killkannon 15
Kombi-weapon with rokkit launcha 10
Kombi-weapon with skorcha 15
Kopta rokkits 25
Kustom mega-blasta 10
Kustom mega-kannon 45
Kustom mega-slugga 5
Kustom mega-zappa 0
Kustom shokk rifle 0
Kustom shoota 3
Lobba 20
Mek speshul 0
Rivet kannon 0
Rokkit kannon 0
Rokkit launcha 10
Pair of rokkit pistols 10
Shokk attack gun 25
Shoota 0
Shotgun 0
Skorcha 15
Skorcha missiles 10
Slugga 0
Smasha gun 20
Snagga klaw 0
Snazzgun 0
Squig bomb 0
Squig launcha 0
Stikkbomb chukka 5
Stikkbomb flinga 5
Stikkbombs 0
Stikksquigs 0
Supa-shoota 10
Supa-gatler 0
Supa-rokkit 5
Tankbusta bombs 0
Tellyport blasta 10
Tellyport mega-blasta 10
Traktor kannon 30
Twin big shoota 10
Twin boomstikk 0
Wazbom mega-kannon 0
Wing missiles 0
Zzap gun 15

Attack squig 0
Big choppa 5
Buzz saw 0
Choppa 0
Deff rolla 20
Dread klaw 15
Dread saw 10
Drilla 0
Grabba stikk 0
Grabbin’ klaw 5
Grot-prod 0
Kan klaw 0
Killsaw/two killsaws 10/15
Klaw of Gork (or possibly Mork) 0
Mega-choppa 0
Nose drill 0
Power klaw 10
Power stabba 5
Saw blades 0
Spinnin’ blades 0
Tankhammer 10
’Urty syringe 0
Waaagh! banner 0
Weirdboy staff 0
Wreckin’ ball 5

’Ard case 0
Cybork body 5
Gitfnda squig 0
Grot lash 0
Grot rigger 5
Kustom force field 20
Squig hound 0

Edit: Grots are obviously massive losers but MANZ have actually gone down in points when using twin killsaws now, from 43 to 40. That's pretty tasty IMO.

Did much change at all? Sadly big shootas cost the same, though i guess that's also kinda a discount as marines heavy bolters cost double now right?

Bigshootas still 5pts sucks balls.
Grots going to 5pts is a fething joke. They do NOTHING other than die and get in the way, we only used them because GW basically forces us to these days.Prior to 8th i didnt use my grots at all.
Stompa is no surprise. GW clearly doesnt want anybody to use that thing. It will never be proper playable again, not that we could even use the thing in 9th anyway with how LoW's are taken.
Ghaz being 300 is another slap in the face. Dude was overpriced as hell at 285pts, even if he stayed the same he'd be sketchy to use. Perhaps with how terrain works he'll actually be a massive thorn, since the odds of the game turning into a mosh pit in the middle of the board is more likely now.