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Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
What I still don't get is why primaris bikers are 4w each.

Maybe because their bikes are supposed to be some sort of armored bikes. Or because primaris stuff must have +1W compared to their classic marines equivalent.

If it's true it makes perfect sense: primaris (2W) + armored/primaris bike (2W) = 4W.

Orks warbikers are boyz (1W) on bikes (1W) so 2W are correct. Biker nobz are 3W since nobz are 2W base. Bikes for 1W marines only add 1W to the models, just like ork bikes.

While I'd preferred those primaris to be 3W adding more W to the ork bikes don't make any sense and I'd rather wish for an invuln or a stock bonus to cover/to hit modifier instead.

Oh and please give AP-1 to our former AP5 weapons, like marines got their AP on bolters thanks to the doctrine. Otherwise bikes shooting and big shootas will always be useless.

Well, the practical reasoning would be because primaris jump troops already have 3W and are pretty fast.

I'm all for finding new niches for designing units, I just wish they would be doing it for something other than marines more often.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, the practical reasoning would be because primaris jump troops already have 3W and are pretty fast.

I'm all for finding new niches for designing units, I just wish they would be doing it for something other than marines more often.

They'd have to release models for other armies more often then. That doesn't seem to be the plan.


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 Emicrania wrote:
They are pushing the new hotness worst than crack dealers.

Just look the buggies. So fething stupid .


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Buggies, bombers and gorka+morka, backed by some Orks for OBS sec and maybe MANz or kommandos *MIGHT* be doable, but still all our strats and no possibility to regenerate is a fething pain in the ass

In all fairness, in 8th, it was basically infantry or bust at the competitive level. It makes sense that vehicles would get far less points increases (except KK, because those can screw themselves, apparently), even with buffs... we were already paying a premium for them.

A vehi-tide style is probably gonna be good. Top table good? Who knows. The major issue is that the meta is going to really lean into anti tank...

I expect plenty of lists trying out a 1x3 skrapjet korkscrew build at the very least. I think they're looking real solid now, and for a cheap-ish cost. The korkscrew ability itself isn't as good I suppose, with the nerf to multi-charging and all, but it's still double attacks and/or plenty of extra movement.

So the Scrapjett actually went down in points, or am I missing something?

Probably the two twin big shootas

It was 100 points and is 110 now.

Do you think they will nerf the new look sir rules because of ghaz?

I can see some interactions with him with like painboy and some other HQs in tow.

Enemy shoots ghaz down his 4 wounds. Now they cant hurt him more, or target any of the characters behind him, unless sniper? Or if they get closer?

I would love to abuse this in a tau gunline, healing ghaz up every turn too

 Jidmah wrote:
Probably the two twin big shootas

It was 100 points and is 110 now.

Ohhhh yeah I missed those. I noticed that the rokkit gunz didn't cost any extra.

Bigdoza wrote:
Do you think they will nerf the new look sir rules because of ghaz?

I can see some interactions with him with like painboy and some other HQs in tow.

Enemy shoots ghaz down his 4 wounds. Now they cant hurt him more, or target any of the characters behind him, unless sniper? Or if they get closer?

I would love to abuse this in a tau gunline, healing ghaz up every turn too

Given he costs 300 points, and most of the stuff he'd protect are melee characters anyway, which probably have butt loads of protection from your other units?

It's not a big deal.

Out of curiosity, what was the average point increase across the board? 10%? 20%? I know it's probably hard to generalize but what have you all seen?

I'd say around 15%. As a general rule of thumb, most 1750 armies became roughly 2k from what I've gathered.

Edit: Probably trending slightly lower if I had to ballpark it, so in the 13-15 range

Just read the goonhammer article and they said the mean increase was 13.4%. This means that on average our troops are (very) slightly below the average points increase! (boyz going up 13% at 1ppm)

It depends on the units players used to field, my tipycal 8th lists are now 150-200 points more expensive but those who fielded 3x SAG, 10 flash gitz and 100+ gretchins will probably have to shave more points.

A very few units are exactly the same (or max 5 points per unit more expensive): Warboss, min squads of kommandos (pk got cheaper), rokkit koptas (IIRC they were 54 and now 50? So actually cheaper?), deffkilla wartrike, Grotsnik, trukks, tankbustas, big mek with KFF. Badrukk is just +6 points. 5 meganobz are just +15 points in total.

Many others got a 10-15% price hike.

If you were grot heavy and SAG heavy, your army went up a CRAP ton.

3 SAGs + 60 grots is 240 points alone, which was pretty much standard in the green tide lists.

Hopefully the SAG cost is actually 95, 40 point increase seems a bit psycho. I'm wondering if they have a separate SAG cost is a new Big Mek is coming.

My army went up 420 ish points. 20% increase.
Not playable at all no more.

The grot thing is 100% the worst thing that happened, but lot of other really dumb changes too.
Grots arent even half as effective as guardsmen, yet cost the same now. The grot tax is arguably worse now than before, since boyz still stink.

There is no infantry unit less then 5ppm... it was a blanket change without any leeway for balance... at best I can see grots and brims dropping to 4ppm (And cultist to 5ppm) but GW would need to have heavy negative feedback to revert this intentional change.

At those prices, boyz are better.

Like having diarrea is better than having cholera .

 Emicrania wrote:
At those prices, boyz are better.

Like having diarrea is better than having cholera .

10 man boy squad gets 11 wounds at 7.27 ppm and a host of benefits.

I just don't see why I'd take grots, unless I just literally can't spare 30 points.

I can see a single min grot squad to baby sit a SSAG... but that’s it.

gungo wrote:
I can see a single min grot squad to baby sit a SSAG... but that’s it.

yeah, best use seems to be a unit to guard/screen stuff like SSAG, lootas, or Mek Gunz

Lootas are done... there were done before but only went up in 9th cost way to much cp and badmoons hasn’t aged well in mission heavy 9th.

Smashas is the way to go but even those I would just take 6-12 tops with an 8-9 sweet spot.

SSAG may not even be worth it unless I see knights, vehicles and monsters everywhere.

I’m also unhappy with the Mork losing fallback and shoot. Making it locked in combat as a heavy counter move... gork w relic gun deepstrike with 5+squig tankbustas inside being a mean deep striker.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
Out of curiosity, what was the average point increase across the board? 10%? 20%? I know it's probably hard to generalize but what have you all seen?

That's difficult to answer because GW used an odd system to increase points. They basically slapped 1-2 onto infantry, 5 on elite infantry, bikes and very light vehicles, 10 on small vehicles and walkers, 15 on tanks, 20 on expensive vehicles and monsters and 30 or more on centerpiece models. Afterwards they rounded to the nearest 5. There appears to be additional tax for flying, ignoring LoS and blast.
By going by this logic, Thrakka would have seen a 20-30 points increase normally, so just 15 is fairly almost a buff.


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gungo wrote:
There is no infantry unit less then 5ppm... it was a blanket change without any leeway for balance... at best I can see grots and brims dropping to 4ppm (And cultist to 5ppm) but GW would need to have heavy negative feedback to revert this intentional change.

Guardsmen just need to go up to 7 or something. Friggin' pox walkers are 7 and they are basically guardsmen without a gun.


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gungo wrote:
I can see a single min grot squad to baby sit a SSAG... but that’s it.

Might as well just not bring a SSAG at all. If your opponent kills 8 gretchin he can just point a lascannon at your big mek and vaporize it. Look out sir! means that you need a real screen to protect your characters, otherwise they die.


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gungo wrote:
I’m also unhappy with the Mork losing fallback and shoot. Making it locked in combat as a heavy counter move...

I honestly didn't know that the Mork could fall back and shoot until 9th edition articles started writing about it. It always either killed whatever it was fighting or just staying in combat was actually a good option for me.
It still puts out 12 S8 AP-2 attacks that insta-gib primaris and tears most other monsters a new one. You also get to shoot 12 big shootas, two rokkits and a KMB at the unit that was foolish enough to charge you before you lose the kustom-mega zappa. I think the number of units that can survive staying in combat with it while not being a valuable target to just smash with the klaw are few and far between.

gork w relic gun deepstrike with 5+squig tankbustas inside being a mean deep striker.

You still cannot disembark during the reinforcement step, so I wouldn't bother putting something inside.

Had we not been so CP starved then the SSAG would've been more enticing. But as of right now he costs CP and is fairly easily killed, but I suppose you can pop off "Orks is never beaten" and shoot with him if he himself is shot to death. Again, it's the lack of CP that hurts (and lack of HQ slots).

I'm still split on boyz or grots. 10 boyz are obviously a vastly stronger unit but at the same time I don't expect them to do much either, so I almost just want to save 90 points for other stuff. 9 boyz plus a nob with a killsaw isn't a terrible idea I guess, as at least one model in the unit is scary.

It’s still our best option to kill vehicles and monsters...
Plus the dread waaagh helps the deep strike gorkanaut with its shoot twice strat...

Relic big boss warboss on bike isn’t going to cut it.

The SSAG isn’t anywhere near must take though...

I want to put soemthing inside the gork mainly to be able to grab objectives on the other side Of the boat while also being decent for deepstriking.
We do have a few options to do that with kommandos and deffkoptas or da jumping mega nobs... but I think tankbustas are okay again especially in a chinork with dual rattlers if that’s an option.

I have toyed a lot with units of boyz as my troops in battlewagons, trukks and just for hanging around.

In my experience they just fail at anything they try, be it melee or shooting. Bringing 3x10 boyz over 3x10 gretchin is still a 90 point investment, and I'd say that you can do better for 90 point than upgrading gretchin with a slightly better defensive profile.

gungo wrote:
It’s still our best option to kill vehicles and monsters...
Plus the dread waaagh helps the deep strike gorkanaut with its shoot twice strat...

Relic big boss warboss on bike isn’t going to cut it.

The SSAG isn’t anywhere near must take though...

I just need to see the boards. Honestly, if you take a vehicle heavy list with a bunch of mek guns wrapping around your SSAG, it'll be annoying to shift him AND buggies AND a Mork (etc).

If the SSAG can get good LOS without shifting much, it'll be fine. Dread Waaaagh is also really good for the Gork / Mork route, as you've said.

But this all hinges on how much units can hide while still playing to the mission.

gungo wrote:
It’s still our best option to kill vehicles and monsters...
Plus the dread waaagh helps the deep strike gorkanaut with its shoot twice strat...

Relic big boss warboss on bike isn’t going to cut it.

The SSAG isn’t anywhere near must take though...

My point was that you can't protect a SSAG with 10 gretchin. If there are no units with 3+ models within 3" of your SSAG every single enemy model on the table can shoot it. Including tank commanders, crimson hunters, repulsor executioners or a knight.
Causing 8 casualties to a unit of gretchin is a trivial task. If you want to bring a SSAG, you need to bring a screen that takes more than a couple of potshots to remove.

Basically I think we didn’t fare well points wise.
How well we do this edition depend on the meta.
Lots of vehicle and monsters we have a few decent options
Lots of 6-10 sized elite squads like custodes and primarus supported with ad mech/guard Plasma/melta spam shooting we will have issues and might need to counter Meta into ork boy hordes camping objectives and trying to force them to remove us.

Our buggies are nice but cheap plasma melta spam is going to counter it.

cody.d. wrote:
Been working on a straight forward spreadsheet if you want to see the points differences. Overall fairly tame, a few things like stormboyz and Flashgits going up by 25% isn't great though.

By the by, your growth formula is off.

It's ((x2-x1) / x1) * 100.

You have it as ((x2 - x1) / x2) * 100.