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 Jidmah wrote:


My point was that you can't protect a SSAG with 10 gretchin. If there are no units with 3+ models within 3" of your SSAG every single enemy model on the table can shoot it. Including tank commanders, crimson hunters, repulsor executioners or a knight.

Can it be saved by vehicles though, isn't it? Until I get my rulebook I keep forgetting these new rules

So what about placing the SSAG near or behind a battery of mek gunz with dreads as babysitters? Expensive for sure, but mek gunz are still useful while dreads can split once deployed and at least one of them could easily stay put to protect units like mek gunz and/or SSAG.

I think I'd move on the SSAG though. With the new points hikes I'd try to stick with 2 HQs and the mek became pretty expensive. Plus second relic+dread waaagh is 2 CPs, and I could justify it only by firing twice a couple of turns with either the SSAG or a naut, but then it's another 4 CPs. Worked good in 18+ CPs lists, and I've done it a lot, but now it's a different story.

Vehicles nearby do cover him yes. Just make sure there's several as individual ork vehicles go poof. And does mean you can't put high for good LOS position.

 Jidmah wrote:
I have toyed a lot with units of boyz as my troops in battlewagons, trukks and just for hanging around.

In my experience they just fail at anything they try, be it melee or shooting. Bringing 3x10 boyz over 3x10 gretchin is still a 90 point investment, and I'd say that you can do better for 90 point than upgrading gretchin with a slightly better defensive profile.

I think it will depend largely on the meta. 9th seems to be focused on objective camping, which will make "a slightly better defensive profile" a little more enticing.

Could be interesting to run a T8 heavy list, throwing out a fair few battlewagons filled with msu units of nobs/mega backed by a few naughts

I mean gunwagon with the Kustom job is a steal for the price.

The rest is meh. The fething wazbomb went up like 20% in price. I really need a name to write on my book of grudges. The idiot that made points adjustment for xenos deserve to be flailed alive

 Emicrania wrote:
I mean gunwagon with the Kustom job is a steal for the price.

The rest is meh. The fething wazbomb went up like 20% in price. I really need a name to write on my book of grudges. The idiot that made points adjustment for xenos deserve to be flailed alive

Is it a steal? For 175 points it still feels a little weaker than a leman russ, certainly weaker than a tank commander. Would it be better to take a pair of the buggies for similar output and durability?

These points adjustments really don't make sense, particularly the Grots (isn't that Guardsman price?).

I don't understand the Trukk increase, since it is absolute trash with the new rules. FAQ makes it explicit you can't shoot in combat and you now don't get special rules. They have no combat ability. What is the point of a Trukk?
At least they fixed the Deff Rolla in the first FAQ, I'm legitimately impressed.

The way I'm reading this list, KS MANz are pretty obvious. For two points over a PK MAN, which is garbage by comparison. That's really the only thing I'm seeing that is standing out.

80 points for a basic Boyz squad that is now vulnerable to blasts. Ace. Compared to 50 points for a handful of...Gretchin.
A full Boyz squad is now 240 points with nothing on it. Boyz + transports with the points increases are pretty nauseating to contemplate.
Apparently we now save 3 points on a Klaw.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Primaris are still a better value and more flexible, particularly when you look at the Bikes. I don't see either Bike squad being viable or tempting in any way.

I don't know about Nobz at 17 points. I wanna see the wargear. Unless the BC went down, I'm not seeing it. If the BC went down a couple points, I'm going full ham just to kill Primaris because they annoy me.

 TedNugent wrote:
These points adjustments really don't make sense, particularly the Grots (isn't that Guardsman price?).

I don't understand the Trukk increase, since it is absolute trash with the new rules. FAQ makes it explicit you can't shoot in combat and you now don't get special rules. They have no combat ability. What is the point of a Trukk?
At least they fixed the Deff Rolla in the first FAQ, I'm legitimately impressed.

The way I'm reading this list, KS MANz are pretty obvious. For two points over a PK MAN, which is garbage by comparison. That's really the only thing I'm seeing that is standing out.

80 points for a basic Boyz squad that is now vulnerable to blasts. Ace. Compared to 50 points for a handful of...Gretchin.
A full Boyz squad is now 240 points with nothing on it. Boyz + transports with the points increases are pretty nauseating to contemplate.
Apparently we now save 3 points on a Klaw.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Primaris are still a better value and more flexible, particularly when you look at the Bikes. I don't see either Bike squad being viable or tempting in any way.

I don't know about Nobz at 17 points. I wanna see the wargear. Unless the BC went down, I'm not seeing it. If the BC went down a couple points, I'm going full ham just to kill Primaris because they annoy me.

The truck went up by only 1 point. Not really much of a loss there right? If anything that's a decent points drop by comparison to the units inside it. It's essentially just a block of meat you throw at the enemy and force them to chew through, block fallback paths, deepstrike openings, charge paths. For 65 points that's not great but certainly not bad.

And I guess the trade off of a PKshoota mega nob vs the KS one is the shoota? Yeah it's not great but I suppose there is that one in a dozen game where those 4 shots could make a difference by killing that last model in your way. (yeah i'll be taking killsaws too most of the time)

Yup, marines are going to be the best value units for some time I think, maybe once all the scalping is done and the boxes are sold we'll get a CA or codex which sorts things out once GW makes their initial investments back on the molds.

As for nobs, well... for 10pts more you could get yourself a meganob, or you could give them a BC and have 2 for the price of one with less durability but more attacks. 10 of them with BC and Choppa is 220 (or you could have a few bullet catchers with just dual choppas) That's a decent amount of killiness for not to bad a price.

cody.d. wrote:

I don't understand the Trukk increase, since it is absolute trash with the new rules. FAQ makes it explicit you can't shoot in combat and you now don't get special rules. They have no combat ability. What is the point of a Trukk

Honestly?

For 65 points, it might be an incredible screen. I'd rather take a Trukk than 10 grots, I tell you that much.

What you probably could do: Keep a trukk behind obscuring terrain, with the SSAG poking his toe out in terrain. As long as he's not the closest target, he cannot he shot at as long as he's within 3" of the trukk. And it's a hell of a lot harder to smash a trukk than 10 grots.

Best part is: even if it somehow gets shot, your SSAG mek can heal it.

Curious it cited that quote as from me. But yeah, I agree. If our common place troops become boys rather then grots it could be worth it to take a trukk for them. Give orks a very mobile feel with no or few elements that stay in our backfield while our entire force floods the mid and enemies. Could be damn fun.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I have toyed a lot with units of boyz as my troops in battlewagons, trukks and just for hanging around.

In my experience they just fail at anything they try, be it melee or shooting. Bringing 3x10 boyz over 3x10 gretchin is still a 90 point investment, and I'd say that you can do better for 90 point than upgrading gretchin with a slightly better defensive profile.

I think it will depend largely on the meta. 9th seems to be focused on objective camping, which will make "a slightly better defensive profile" a little more enticing.

I don't think there is any unit that would succeed in killing 10 gretchin but fail to kill 10 boyz. I can't envision a meta where T4 and one extra wound is worth 30 points.

Also keep in mind that "camping on objectives" is not done somewhere in your backfield out of reach of enemy units. The majority of objectives are in the middle of the board and the few that are not tend to be closer to the center of the board than to your table edge, so objectives will be fought over. 10 boyz cannot hold an objective against anything that actively tries to kill them.


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cody.d. wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:
I mean gunwagon with the Kustom job is a steal for the price.

The rest is meh. The fething wazbomb went up like 20% in price. I really need a name to write on my book of grudges. The idiot that made points adjustment for xenos deserve to be flailed alive

Is it a steal? For 175 points it still feels a little weaker than a leman russ, certainly weaker than a tank commander. Would it be better to take a pair of the buggies for similar output and durability?

The buggy that comes closest would be the scrapjet, which is 220 for two and has less durability and range. Da Bommer with periscope is a fairly decent shooting unit unless your opponent is being a donkey cave and insists that you can't use the periscope.
Units in other codices never, ever matter in this regard, because orks can't take tank commanders.

tneva82 wrote:
Vehicles nearby do cover him yes. Just make sure there's several as individual ork vehicles go poof. And does mean you can't put high for good LOS position.

Ok, I remembered correctly then, thanks. Putting the SSAG high was never an issue for me, here we don't play with huge buildings so my SSAG has always been good by simply stayinig in a corner, even on the ground floor. In fact what it really matters is first and second turns of shooting and even in terrain-heavy tables is hard to believe that it doesn't get an appropriate target unless it's on top of a building. My late 8th list was heavy on mek gunz, dreads, da boomer which stay in my deployment zone, I guess I would be ok with the new rules. However with the new points costs I'm reworking the lists and at the moment I'm oriented to skip the big mek with SAG.

Having da boomer sit next to your SSAG will probably keep it safe all game. At least in my meta people don't want to shoot it because there is just too much effort required to remove that one gun.

Da boomer is great, but the problem is that you can only have one of them so if your opponent is so inclined it's not that hard to remove. Like Jidmah alluded to however, it doesn't degrade in any stat that really matters so it sort of sucks to shoot at. I wouldn't have a SSAG standing next to it though as it blows up on a 4+ that you cannot reroll.. It's a blast weapon though so you don't want to move it too far up ahead since it's easily tagged, that makes gunwagons a bit odd in terms of positioning IMO. The Zagzap getting 2 auto-hits in CC is not terrible if it's tagged though, especially since it cold be MWs and as such, spill over.

I still have high hopes (perhaps I shouldn't) that the supa-kannon can be a viable buddy to da boomer when they update FW.

gungo wrote:
Basically I think we didn’t fare well points wise.
How well we do this edition depend on the meta.
Lots of vehicle and monsters we have a few decent options
Lots of 6-10 sized elite squads like custodes and primarus supported with ad mech/guard Plasma/melta spam shooting we will have issues and might need to counter Meta into ork boy hordes camping objectives and trying to force them to remove us.

Our buggies are nice but cheap plasma melta spam is going to counter it.

I face a lot of plasma in my meta, one of my most common opponents is a DA player, so go figure
In general, I don't think that plasma is an effective way to counter buggies. Getting hit by it hurts, but plasma guns aren't exactly cheap while our buggies are. The lucky blue paint surely helps mitigating it, but so does simply getting 8 wounds for 90-110 points.
Against armies that can spam plasma like guard, you have tons of big shootas everywhere which will just riddle them with bullets before they start to matter.
Meltas are a pretty dangerous, but outside of those new primaris firedragons I doubt we will be seeing a lot of them. The problems of being low range single-shot weapons didn't get solved by a minor point drop.

The weapons that gave me the most trouble in 8th were the kind of weapons which usually suck at killing vehicles. Predator autocannons, missile launchers, battle cannons or lootas tear them appart because of their low armor save and inability to gain cover.

The way I see it now there is either a DS brigade with smaller boyz unit backed by 2 KFF and spamming infantry, either massive mecha list with bombers , gunwagon, buggies and naut.

Since GW sucks ass, apparently our KFF still works in CC, so you would still have boyz with a 5++ and maybe 6+++ by a painboy. MANz would benefit from this big time. Also as everyone will be kitted to kill veichle, high powered, expensive shots would be wasted on boyz. Also you could be swarming the board easily.
Yet is just boyz and somehow we need the firepower to take out the worst offenders, so a patrol with freebooterz and some ablative wounds Grots might be necessary. Paradoxically being the FG 32 points now, having ablative wounds at 5 points is still pretty good. Or maybe just take a couple of bombers to crack castle up.

Mech list might be very similar to last year:
Morkanaut
Gorkanaut
6 Smashaguns
2 bombers
DJ
3*10 Grots
SSAG
Weirboy
KFF
Warboss
2 SJD (maybe?)
That list is very CP light and let you invest heavily in pregame shopping. It will definitely need some refining for adjust to the missions and have some better board control, maybe here a 30 Shoota boyz could be a good change, just for the treat of green tide late game. But this might be a meta list and every fething eradicators will love to F you in the A .

So regarding our flyers. Others went up 20'ish points, but Wazbom went up the double. Why?

Well the wazbom went from 99+24+20+18=161 (assuming the KFF and WMK), it's now 140+0+20+20=180 for the same equipment.

The flier itself went up by a lot, but the KFF stayed the same and the smasha gun went up by 2. This is offset quite a bit by the main weaponry now baked into the price of the plane itself..

Ilgoth wrote:
So regarding our flyers. Others went up 20'ish points, but Wazbom went up the double. Why?

In 8th Wazbomm with mega kannons and KFF was 99+12+12+18+20 = 161
In 9th Wazbomm with mega kannons and KFF is 140+0+0+20+20 = 180

The tellyporta blasta load-out went up by from 173 to 200, but no one took that anyways.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wonder whether legends point costs get adjusted. If they don't the big mek on warbike will be looking really great again.

Gw said legend points won't get adjusted ever so wouldn't expect changes. Do expect them being banned even more as a result though

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if it straight up says in the tournament pack book that legends aren't allowed in those games. Meaning it's all relegated to crusades and such

That was my assumption when Legends launched. It doesn't make much sense for GW to keep updating their points. Very very rare thing to happen, if ever.

As someone pointed out, 30 boyz with minimal loadout is pretty much the same as 10 Nobz with Big Choppa + Choppa. I for one, in 8th edition, ran 30 boyz unit as close combat focused mixed unit. Those might be replaced with that 10Nobz line up. Making me go with less bodies, but personally running boyz with melee loadout wont be a thing. Will do smaller shoota units that will be sitting on objectives.

tneva82 wrote:
Gw said legend points won't get adjusted ever so wouldn't expect changes. Do expect them being banned even more as a result though

Considering how I auto-lose in those event due to the battle ready rules, I couldn't care less about what they ban.

PiñaColada wrote:
Da boomer is great, but the problem is that you can only have one of them so if your opponent is so inclined it's not that hard to remove. Like Jidmah alluded to however, it doesn't degrade in any stat that really matters so it sort of sucks to shoot at. I wouldn't have a SSAG standing next to it though as it blows up on a 4+ that you cannot reroll.. It's a blast weapon though so you don't want to move it too far up ahead since it's easily tagged, that makes gunwagons a bit odd in terms of positioning IMO. The Zagzap getting 2 auto-hits in CC is not terrible if it's tagged though, especially since it cold be MWs and as such, spill over.

I still have high hopes (perhaps I shouldn't) that the supa-kannon can be a viable buddy to da boomer when they update FW.

First Deathskullz are supposed to be lucky so that explosion is not gonna happen The big mek can also provide some repair to the tank, which is nice. A morkanaut can work as well instead of the gunwagon.

With orks redundancy has always been a key factor so you won't take the Boomer alone, in fact if I plan to bring it I would also take a Morkanaut and a forktress wagon or a full battery of mek gunz or 3x dreads, plus 3+ buggies and/or maybe 1-2 trukks of stuff. Flyers also give redundancy, I just don't like them modelwise, but they are excellent for that purpose. I haven't had the boomer dead before turn 3 in any of my games yet, there are always other priority targets on the table.

My boomer hasn't died once yet. Despite me sticking big shootas on it to bait people into shooting it, it's never in competition for target priority when a naut, planes, bikers/MANz and a bunch of buggies are on the table.

I really wish lobbas weren't 20 points, for 10 I'd add it as well.

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw said legend points won't get adjusted ever so wouldn't expect changes. Do expect them being banned even more as a result though

Considering how I auto-lose in those event due to the battle ready rules, I couldn't care less about what they ban.

Well lf you want to have your legends unit removed mid tournament leaving playing with under 2k army feel free to not care

tneva82 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Gw said legend points won't get adjusted ever so wouldn't expect changes. Do expect them being banned even more as a result though

Considering how I auto-lose in those event due to the battle ready rules, I couldn't care less about what they ban.

Well lf you want to have your legends unit removed mid tournament leaving playing with under 2k army feel free to not care

I don't know about you, but in general I read and clarify tournament regulations before I start playing. Not going to a tournament is a perfectly valid option.

Seriously, do actually read any of the stuff you write?

I don't think he does, which is why I muted him. I only see arguments where I see his name.

Jid, you tried out most of the buggies right? Which one is more versatile and cost effective , SJD or MSJ?

 Emicrania wrote:
I don't think he does, which is why I muted him. I only see arguments where I see his name.

I actually do value his opinion when he isn't in full rant mode. Sadly, this hasn't been the case since the first 9th leaks though. I don't think I have added and removed anyone to my ignore list as often as tneva

Jid, you tried out most of the buggies right? Which one is more versatile and cost effective , SJD or MSJ?

Eh, tough call. I actually tried all of them now, I got a squigbuggy for my birthday

The SJD is a buggy that is very focused on hunting hard targets and is extremely good and reliable at doing so. With 14" movement speed it can threaten targets anywhere from the very beginning of the game and easily switch sides. The stratagem allows it to drive completely out of position or make suicidal assassination attempts and get away safely. It works particularly well as deathskulls since you are very likely to re-roll a miss into a hit, take less damage from rolling ones and can re-roll damage.
While the kustom job is silly fun, but you simply don't want to have the penalty of advancing on the main gun.

The scrapjet is more of an all-rounder which throws down a large amount of unreliable shooting. Rokkit-kannon and wing missile can feth up vehicles and marines, but there is a decent chance to do nothing with them. As death skulls, make sure to roll the wing missile first, a re-roll to hit is more valuable when you are hitting on fours. The four big shootas, with two of them having BS4+ help clearing out light infantry and kill the occasional marine. The nose drill and spiked ram are nice to finish off units that just barely survived and will probably help getting/denying objectives in 9th. My main gripe with the scrapjet is that it only moves 10". When I need to go around terrain or other models (quite common in buggy lists), you'll quickly find yourself out of valuable targets to shoot.
I'm still split on the korkscrew, I had games where I was happy to have it/missed it and I have had games where it was just a waste of CP.

If you really want a versatile and cost effective buggy, you can't ignore the KBB. Cheaper than any of the other buggies and the burnin' highway stratagem is just insanely good if there is a infantry to clear. At 12" it's still reasonably fast and the rivet gun is good at shooting pretty much anything in the game except T8 models. It's only weakness, being stuck in combat, disappeared with 9th and turned into a strength. It also has a 6" explosion if you are lucky enough to roll a six
Avoid the kustom job though.

The wartrike with gork's roar is a decent unit, but not top tier by any means, squig buggies are meh unless you bring lots of them and drop squig mines everywhere, snazzwagon is just steaming hot garbage, best used as KBB proxy.

So for competitive gaming I'd probably pick KBB and SJD, as it allows you to make more plays and capitalize on your own skill. A scrapjet is just guided missile that allows for little finesse, but offers raw power.

Does anyone have any experience using a battlewagon with the supa-kannon? Stats on it look decent but I'm not sure it is worth 190pts.