Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
What is the argument is there for taking nob bikers over regular biker boyz?

They don't compete with buggies for FA slots.

That's pretty much it.

Nob bikers also only got a 2 PPM increase, while warbikers got 4.

Frankly, you could build a nob biker squad that probably operates like the warbiker squad but better. Big squad isn't doing you much anymore anyway with coherency and multi charge issues.

Nob Biker can now get 5 str 5 attacks (double choppa) for 35 ppm and a bonus wound; warbikers are 27 for 3 attacks at str 4. More attacks per point, more wounds per point.

Are either actually worth taking anymore is the better question. I'm guessing not. The whole point was to tie up as much gak as possible, and 12 bikes staying in coherency I'm guessing is quite small.

Wouldn't you be able to exchange either unit decently with a scrapjet unit with corksrews? Same number of wounds, exchanging 6 big shoota shots for the rokkit attacks, 8 powerklaw attacks vs 9 klaw attacks (or big choppas)

Probably worse for things like holding ground and copping high damage attacks.

Nob bikers with big choppas benefit the most from the +1 strength stratagem that targets bikers and wartrikes. So that's 4 s8 ap-1 D2 attacks plus an S6 Choppa attack for 40ppm and 1cp. Imo getting that large volume of s8 attacks is a big deal.
I'm not 100% sure how they will hold up in the new edition but there might be potential with slingshotting them from behind obscuring terrain to steal to objectives.

 Quackzo wrote:
Nob bikers with big choppas benefit the most from the +1 strength stratagem that targets bikers and wartrikes. So that's 4 s8 ap-1 D2 attacks plus an S6 Choppa attack for 40ppm and 1cp. Imo getting that large volume of s8 attacks is a big deal.
I'm not 100% sure how they will hold up in the new edition but there might be potential with slingshotting them from behind obscuring terrain to steal to objectives.

Good point, and if you have a weirdboy hanging around you can slap warpath on them as well for extra chopping.

that basically goes back to why Dragoons were so rude in melee for admech.
They only had 3 attacks but exploding 4+ (in 8th, not so in 9th sadly) so they commonly got a TON of S8 AP1 2D wounds in melee.
They were about twice what a nobbiker is too.

I still think if they were to give bikers back their stupid smoke cloud rule (now a -1 to hit) they'd be just fine as is.

The 90 for scrapjett include the twin big shootas or you add another 20?

Bigdoza wrote:
The 90 for scrapjett include the twin big shootas or you add another 20?

I'm assuming it's before all wargear. So 110 total.

I do wish GW would get over this kick of costing almost every single weapon as 0 though.

Yeah, its pointless to have all wargear options be costed out when so many are free.
Its not even "if its only on one unit, its free" because a lot between units are free and often a unit that has 2 options only to that unit they still arent free since clearly theyre not equal in power.

It was so much easier when they just said what they came with default and you swapped it out as needed.

It also points out how much they've bloated the weapon choices, and how much overlap there is between. So many weapons are unique to a vehicle, created purely for that one. Where as go back a few editions and a vehicle would be kitted out with either a few heavy bolters, a lascannon or a stormbolter or two. You'd have a light, medium and heavy version of a weapon. Now it just feels like a bit of a mess when you have boltguns, and 7 variations there of. And bolt rifles, with it's own 7 variations. And pretty much every one of them will have a points cost of 0. What happened to just giving units special rules?

cody.d. wrote:
It also points out how much they've bloated the weapon choices, and how much overlap there is between. So many weapons are unique to a vehicle, created purely for that one. Where as go back a few editions and a vehicle would be kitted out with either a few heavy bolters, a lascannon or a stormbolter or two. You'd have a light, medium and heavy version of a weapon. Now it just feels like a bit of a mess when you have boltguns, and 7 variations there of. And bolt rifles, with it's own 7 variations. And pretty much every one of them will have a points cost of 0. What happened to just giving units special rules?

Unless it's heavy stubbers. Everywhere I would have expected to find secondary weapons like multilas or heavy bolters, I now find heavy stubbers!

I do desperately want for Autocannons in particular to be unified a bit more. There is like a dozen+ different types of autocannons, and none of them are consistent - most are S7, but some are S8. Most are AP-1, but some are AP-2. Most are D2, but some are D3D or even D3. I think about the only thing that stays the same across all of them is the range? But I might even be wrong about that.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
that basically goes back to why Dragoons were so rude in melee for admech.
They only had 3 attacks but exploding 4+ (in 8th, not so in 9th sadly) so they commonly got a TON of S8 AP1 2D wounds in melee.
They were about twice what a nobbiker is too.

I still think if they were to give bikers back their stupid smoke cloud rule (now a -1 to hit) they'd be just fine as is.

I think dragoons are a good comparison (before their nerf in the FAQ). Both dragoons and nob bikers spike in value with a steady stream of 1 CP stratagems, they also have similar defenses too.

Also while thinking about this I had a couple of thoughts RE Ork CP usage in 9th. Typically we would run 1 or 2 units that are absolute sinks for command points but with SAG's going up in price and Bad Moons detachments not worth the effort, I'm expecting the usage of double shooting and More Dakka to drop down significantly. I still think the Souped Up SAG is good but we're now asking ourselves a few more questions when we run it. Is it worth the points cost in this list? Do I have a spare 1-2 CP for the relic? Can I protect it? Am I giving up a HQ to take this (eg warboss, weirdboy, big mek w/ kff)?
So my point is: we might be seeing more lists with more "flexible" CP to work with. If we don't expect to spend 2 CP minimum on shooting twice every turn we will be opening the door for sprinkling bespoke abilities like "Hit 'Em Harder", "Full Speed Ladz!", and "Billowing Exhaust Clouds". With Deathskulls promoting varied units in each of the unit roles we might actually have an incentive to reserve CP for these sorts of abilities. Not enough CP to use all the abilities each turn but enough to use them as the situation calls for it.

Madjob wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
It also points out how much they've bloated the weapon choices, and how much overlap there is between. So many weapons are unique to a vehicle, created purely for that one. Where as go back a few editions and a vehicle would be kitted out with either a few heavy bolters, a lascannon or a stormbolter or two. You'd have a light, medium and heavy version of a weapon. Now it just feels like a bit of a mess when you have boltguns, and 7 variations there of. And bolt rifles, with it's own 7 variations. And pretty much every one of them will have a points cost of 0. What happened to just giving units special rules?

Unless it's heavy stubbers. Everywhere I would have expected to find secondary weapons like multilas or heavy bolters, I now find heavy stubbers!

I do desperately want for Autocannons in particular to be unified a bit more. There is like a dozen+ different types of autocannons, and none of them are consistent - most are S7, but some are S8. Most are AP-1, but some are AP-2. Most are D2, but some are D3D or even D3. I think about the only thing that stays the same across all of them is the range? But I might even be wrong about that.

Hey there, welcome to the Admech. We heard you liked Heavy stubbers. "What? I didn't" FREAKEN HEAVY STUBBERS AAAAAAAA

All the new vehicles looked like the Mekboy just had a tonne of those ugly little guns he wanted to get rid of.

I do feel GW needs to work on their weapon design again, things used to feel so smooth and clean. At a glance you could see what a vehicle is armed with. That clarity is being lost sadly.

 Quackzo wrote:
Nob bikers with big choppas benefit the most from the +1 strength stratagem that targets bikers and wartrikes. So that's 4 s8 ap-1 D2 attacks plus an S6 Choppa attack for 40ppm and 1cp. Imo getting that large volume of s8 attacks is a big deal.
I'm not 100% sure how they will hold up in the new edition but there might be potential with slingshotting them from behind obscuring terrain to steal to objectives.

No no no. With saws! 45ppm (50 if dual). S10 -4 d2.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

 Quackzo wrote:
Nob bikers with big choppas benefit the most from the +1 strength stratagem that targets bikers and wartrikes. So that's 4 s8 ap-1 D2 attacks plus an S6 Choppa attack for 40ppm and 1cp. Imo getting that large volume of s8 attacks is a big deal.
I'm not 100% sure how they will hold up in the new edition but there might be potential with slingshotting them from behind obscuring terrain to steal to objectives.

No no no. With saws! 45ppm (50 if dual). S10 -4 d2.

You might be onto something there... *starts scrounging his bits box for saw bits*

I noted that a few pages back, that the double saw biker nobs might have potential. But there are a couple of drawbacks, one being that they become 50ppm for a not very durable model but also it doesn't use their great new strat at all. The extra strength (which would be 11 and not 12 now in 9th, no?) is insignificant whereas big choppas at S7 or 8 is a massive difference.

I'm going to try out a 4 double saw and 5 big choppa mix in the next week or so though. I still think MANZ are the way to deliver double saws however, since they can double fight and have a fan-flippin'-tastic strat to improve the damage output. Real tempted to try two 5 manz blobs and just da jump and wreck

I was more thinking of having 3 double saw nobz and 2 with dual choppas (230 for the unit) and not using the stratagem at all.

In my games with warbikers, the killsaw nob did most of the killing, so with me having to cut some FA choices for my buggy list, I could see myself using them elite unit specialized in slaughtering primaris.

But how you guys plan to get those MANZ w/ double saws into combat?

Da jump mostly. You could deepstrike them or put them in a transport I guess. Me personally I'm an ES player so considering they don't even have guns you could probably just slog 'em up the board as well.

They're not quick but boards are smaller and the objectives are are pretty midboard so I don't think it'll be too bad..

Tellyport or da jump most likely.

Think they mean nobs on bikes with dual saws.

Stormboy Nob can do dual saws too. Free deepstrike too still I think as an other option.

Ilgoth wrote:
But how you guys plan to get those MANZ w/ double saws into combat?

I think it heavily depends on the rest of the list. As a general rule, if you bring more vehicles and/or a morka-gorkanaut then you can save the teleporting CPs and use trucks or battlewagons. Otherwise, da jump ir teleport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bigdoza wrote:
Think they mean nobs on bikes with dual saws.

Stormboy Nob can do dual saws too. Free deepstrike too still I think as an other option.

Oh then they shall be speed freaks detachment from vigilus to double mov for 2cp and have a biker boss or a trike following them

MANz to CC? I use them succesfully couple of games already and I do it so:

0. Evil sunz
1. One unit in tellyport
2. Second on the table with moto warboss close

Or 1. Both units on the table. Depending on enemy. Why waste CP if your enemy is CC army and wants to come close. Just march forward or wait.

Real range of MANz in such setup on the table is 5+4,5+9=18,5 inch. That' s not bad at all!

So usualy I march one them carefuly forward and T2 drop the second and charge simultaneously the same target together with the pimp up motowarboss. Usully some of them do not pass the charge. But the rest do and the second just march next round with range 18,5 inch

While I like the visual aspect of a dual killsaw meganobs, isn't it more point effective to take another single-saw meganob instead?

You can't have single-saw MANZ. It's either 10+3 for the PK/kustom shoota or 15 for dual saws.

I prefer embarking them in a Forktress with a couple of more T8 units on the table. Morkanaut and 2 wagons of any kinds are the staple of the type of list I prefer to play. Plus T5-6 units. In the Deathskullz list I'm trying I chose 5 MANZ in a 5++ BW along with 10 boyz.

In an horde oriented army they're best delivered by Da Jump or Tellyporta/Reserve. I prefer the latter since with an infantry oriented list there's no need to invest many CPs on kustom jobs and being able to teleport 30 boyz IN ADDITION to a unit of meganobz is huge.

 Quackzo wrote:
Also while thinking about this I had a couple of thoughts RE Ork CP usage in 9th. Typically we would run 1 or 2 units that are absolute sinks for command points but with SAG's going up in price and Bad Moons detachments not worth the effort, I'm expecting the usage of double shooting and More Dakka to drop down significantly. I still think the Souped Up SAG is good but we're now asking ourselves a few more questions when we run it. Is it worth the points cost in this list? Do I have a spare 1-2 CP for the relic? Can I protect it? Am I giving up a HQ to take this (eg warboss, weirdboy, big mek w/ kff)?
So my point is: we might be seeing more lists with more "flexible" CP to work with. If we don't expect to spend 2 CP minimum on shooting twice every turn we will be opening the door for sprinkling bespoke abilities like "Hit 'Em Harder", "Full Speed Ladz!", and "Billowing Exhaust Clouds". With Deathskulls promoting varied units in each of the unit roles we might actually have an incentive to reserve CP for these sorts of abilities. Not enough CP to use all the abilities each turn but enough to use them as the situation calls for it.

well a unit that defined our army going up 50points isnt so significant IMO
he isnt as good as before (less CP, look out sir, less mobile) but still a great unit. the CP to get access to the dreadmob isnt so bad too IMO, since it seems DS is far better than BM it will give you access to the shoot twice start.
sticking him with mek gunz or behind out of LOS gretchin should be enough protection for him, without funneling too much recources into him. basically its about 1CP and 30points (calculating in fewer CP's and general 9th pricehikes) more than fielding him in 8th

couple of flashgitz in a squigoth and 5-10 tankbustaz/nobz in a warkopta sounds pretty noice

Another random thought.

Will redeploy stratagems / warlord traits be worth considering again?

Kunnin' but Brutal allows you to redeploy your warlord plus D3 <CLAN> units.

Given first turn is based on a roll off every time, you pretty much have to deploy defensibly or risk getting smacked down. But we could also be aggressive with at least 1 unit (plus the warlord if that matters), and shift to a defensive posture if we lose that roll off.

tulun wrote:
Another random thought.

Will redeploy stratagems / warlord traits be worth considering again?

Kunnin' but Brutal allows you to redeploy your warlord plus D3 <CLAN> units.

Given first turn is based on a roll off every time, you pretty much have to deploy defensibly or risk getting smacked down. But we could also be aggressive with at least 1 unit (plus the warlord if that matters), and shift to a defensive posture if we lose that roll off.

One ork player in our group swore by that trait. He did some pretty nice moves with it when there were still alternate deployments in 8th (he stopped playing shortly after), like lining up his SAG and lootas with models trying to hide, or moving is stormboyz into positions where he could pull off first turn charges. It's actually not that bad, but I have always found big killa boss, burtal but kunnin or follow me ladz better.
And there is the issue with my buggy army already blocking all the space of my deployment zone, so there is little room to actually redeploy anything

tulun wrote:
Another random thought.

Will redeploy stratagems / warlord traits be worth considering again?

Kunnin' but Brutal allows you to redeploy your warlord plus D3 <CLAN> units.

Given first turn is based on a roll off every time, you pretty much have to deploy defensibly or risk getting smacked down. But we could also be aggressive with at least 1 unit (plus the warlord if that matters), and shift to a defensive posture if we lose that roll off.

Well they lost hefty chunk of use when deployment changed so logically enough get it back. Problem is it works better for stuff that shoot and don't want to move. Ssag and lootas prime ones and those look to be taking dent in 9th so compared to it's top time probably not as good

CA bans specialist detachments from tournament play...