Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Theres still no faq on the saga of the beast book so i'd expect him to change soon as they finally stop looking at marines long enough to realize they gave orks something super powerful (cheap KFF that works in melee)

Bigdoza wrote:
Ah I see.

New Mek datasheet from the book I didnt buy lol.

Pretty poor consistency, wargear for some, but not for others.

It also has completely different rules than the wargear item. The datasheet is a complete dumpster fire.

I'm like REALLY trying to be positive, but the more I look into it, the more it feels that ALL the last 6 months decisions, has been made with money as final goal, with a pinch of love for eldar, as usual. The rest of us, got f in a repeatedly.

 Jidmah wrote:

That said, it will be quite a bit of trial and error until we find our perfect mix. Personally, I'm happy to toy around with an edition again that hasn't been "solved" yet.

Yeah, there's going to be massive trial and error.

From what I've seen from a bunch of playtesters, if you can roughly guarantee yourself 7-8 VPs from a secondary, even if it's hard (or impossible) to max it out, that's a better trade off than going for a hypothetical maxable secondary. Yeah, recon is not likely to get you 15, but it's very easy to wrack up 7-8 by end of game which is enough. Psychic ritual can get you 15 VPs with 3 psychic tests, but if you screw it up or they deny at the wrong time., you get nothing.

They are very, very hard to score by design. If there are lists of ours which give up an easy 10-15 VPs (as I made some examples of, Abhor the witch or Bring it Down), it's something we need to react to in list building.

Back to my repair teleport homer example: in a matchup vs knights (Apparently, 4 Questors is going to be a popular build...). With obscuring terrain everywhere, you could easily infiltrate small units of Orks into a corner and probably get this secondary off. Now, against a mirror Ork matchup with a ton of mek guns covering the back line, this might be very difficult.

The art form will be finding that list that seems to slot generally into scoring these secondaries. I think we naturally actually do fine on primaries.

Knighs move 12" and can shoot to full effect though, and my experience with obscuring terrain so far is that it does very little against mobile units with decent range - which also favors our buggies a lot.

In any case, against such a list you could easily just put a random unit into the tellyporta or da jump it.

But I think you might really be onto something with the teleport homers, I'll give it a try when running Makari and take count how much firepower it takes to prevent him from scoring 15 VP

I could definitely see some games where Makari is just filth and never rolls a 1.

He could also catch some mortal wound and just pop heh.

He has 4 wounds, so that would require some dedicated psychic casting to kill him

 Jidmah wrote:
Knighs move 12" and can shoot to full effect though, and my experience with obscuring terrain so far is that it does very little against mobile units with decent range - which also favors our buggies a lot.

In any case, against such a list you could easily just put a random unit into the tellyporta or da jump it.

But I think you might really be onto something with the teleport homers, I'll give it a try when running Makari and take count how much firepower it takes to prevent him from scoring 15 VP

Man you could wrap him in 5 kommandos too, meaning it would take at least 2 units to even be able to *target* him. Against the right army, this would be so frustrating to them.

I still see no value in bringing 5 kommandoz, those are wasted points. Also keep in mind that only a unit of 3+ models can hide characters.
For 20 more you can have trukk or for 5 more a kopta with rokkits that actually force your opponent go through all their wounds before targeting a character and have something to offer besides being T4 wounds.

Besides that, the whole point would be that Makarai needs no additional help.

 Jidmah wrote:
I still see no value in bringing 5 kommandoz, those are wasted points. Also keep in mind that only a unit of 3+ models can hide characters.
For 20 more you can have trukk or for 5 more a kopta with rokkits that actually force your opponent go through all their wounds before targeting a character and have something to offer besides being T4 wounds.

Besides that, the whole point would be that Makarai needs no additional help.

I will defend the potential of small kommando squads!

2 of them show up, ideally in the corners of their deployment zone, to score you for 4 VP for linebreaker. If they are in opportune spots (if you aren't playing Makari), one could also attempt a teleport homer.

If they can effectively hide, you will force your opponent to react and chase them down, shifting them off for their own objectives and the primary. If they can't do that, you're getting linebreaker and potentially teleport homer.

Just some potential in game nonsense for a small unit of Orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only negative I see about Deff Koptas right now is they each give up 2 VPs if the opponent takes Bring it Down.

So the list needs to be very, very vehicle light, or basically so vehicle heavy it probably doesn't matter anymore.

I doubt the "if they can effectively hide" part. A single tank or dread sitting on the backline can easily take out both squads, and you have to stay a good part away from the enemy table edge, otherwise than can deploy strategic reserves in melee range as long as a single model of that unit is within 1" of their table edge.
I murdered a bunch of genestealers who had dug out behind my lineswith pox walkers, despite the new coherency rules I had no issues dragging them into combat 7" from my board edge by deploying them in three rows.

Also, slots. Kommandos are elites and I never fill out those slots whereas deffkoptas (especially as discussed here) really eat into our already crowded FA slots. I'm not sold on kommandos either but I can see some merit in a 5 man squad, certainly enough to try it out.

I don't think I like the idea of Makari up there however, eats an HQ slot and isn't all that cheap. Also his FnP is wasted then.

tulun wrote:
The only negative I see about Deff Koptas right now is they each give up 2 VPs if the opponent takes Bring it Down.

So the list needs to be very, very vehicle light, or basically so vehicle heavy it probably doesn't matter anymore.

They also can't place the teleport homers because they aren't infantry.

That's kind of rude lol, you see opponent picks the teleport homer secondary.

Just put melee unit in strategic reserves right after, they screwed lol

Come place the home reserves gonna eat you in a minute.

 Jidmah wrote:
I doubt the "if they can effectively hide" part. A single tank or dread sitting on the backline can easily take out both squads, and you have to stay a good part away from the enemy table edge, otherwise than can deploy strategic reserves in melee range as long as a single model of that unit is within 1" of their table edge.
I murdered a bunch of genestealers who had dug out behind my lineswith pox walkers, despite the new coherency rules I had no issues dragging them into combat 7" from my board edge by deploying them in three rows.

Fair. I'll probably try out some tactics like this when I play an infantry based list and see if they hold any muster. There are counter plays, but you could also try to hold it back until turn 3 -- people seem to want first anyway. If it seems easy enough to score either twice, it might be worth given "try to guarantee at least 8 VPs from any given secondary" is a mantra that holds.

They also can't place the teleport homers because they aren't infantry.

Yeah, true. I was speaking even generally of the unit. Sadly bring it down is not unit but MODEL based... so a 5 man Deff Kopta squad gives up 10 VPs like it's candy.

PiñaColada wrote:
I don't think I like the idea of Makari up there however, eats an HQ slot and isn't all that cheap. Also his FnP is wasted then.

My pet theory for infantry based lists -- You'll want 2 detachments anyway for HQ slots. I think going for a brigade is crazy given how we can't fill out slots cheaply anymore with grots. If you *only* need 4 HQs if you're taking Ghaz, then he can be your warlord, but I don't know if I'd even want to be 100% locked into Goffs anyway.

I bet a DS/ES battalion supported by a Goff Patrol is probably the way to go if you're going to take Makari. You can use Follow Me Lads to reduce this cost to 1 CP.

 Jidmah wrote:
I doubt the "if they can effectively hide" part. A single tank or dread sitting on the backline can easily take out both squads, and you have to stay a good part away from the enemy table edge, otherwise than can deploy strategic reserves in melee range as long as a single model of that unit is within 1" of their table edge.
I murdered a bunch of genestealers who had dug out behind my lineswith pox walkers, despite the new coherency rules I had no issues dragging them into combat 7" from my board edge by deploying them in three rows.

have to disagree with the kommandoz part...they should be easily hideable. with the points increase armies generally got smaller with fewer units meaning less board coverage. and dont forget that cover is gained if in 3" of a ruin or building, so sneaky gitz get the cover bonus if staying close to terrain without losing the LOS blocking trait.

if not... you should really consider playing with bigger terrain pieces

PiñaColada wrote:
Also, slots. Kommandos are elites and I never fill out those slots whereas deffkoptas (especially as discussed here) really eat into our already crowded FA slots. I'm not sold on kommandos either but I can see some merit in a 5 man squad, certainly enough to try it out.

I don't think I like the idea of Makari up there however, eats an HQ slot and isn't all that cheap. Also his FnP is wasted then.

I don't like the idea of Makari either, he isn't cheap at all for what it does and also requires to burn 2CPs for the second detachment unless going full Goffs.

I may disagree about FA slots being crowded: even with a single battallion there could easily be a room for a single kopta as competitively speaking it's not that effective to bring single buggies of different kinds. I'd only consider a squadron of KBB as anti infantry unit and a squadron of anti tank/elite so either SJD or MSJ, not both. Eventually if Snazzwagons become viable they'd compete with KBBs, they wouldn't be taken in addiction to KBBs.

Unless you really want to go heavy on buggies with 6-9 models. Bikes and stormboyz are sub-optimal, probably not even on par with koptas and the squig buggy doens't have a purpose. So yeah, finding a slot for a unit of koptas shouldn't be that hard, and actually fielding a single kopta is a choice that I'm considering.

Not sure about min squads of kommandos, although I see some potential in them.

tulun wrote:


My pet theory for infantry based lists -- You'll want 2 detachments anyway for HQ slots. I think going for a brigade is crazy given how we can't fill out slots cheaply anymore with grots. If you *only* need 4 HQs if you're taking Ghaz, then he can be your warlord, but I don't know if I'd even want to be 100% locked into Goffs anyway.

I bet a DS/ES battalion supported by a Goff Patrol is probably the way to go if you're going to take Makari. You can use Follow Me Lads to reduce this cost to 1 CP.

IDK... i am playing around with a list and honestly i don't know what HQ's to pick... a KFF mek for sure... but the rest?
yes bikerboss is still great but lets face it... he wont be around for long, he is a legend unit.

badrukk - maybe in a flashigit heavy list? but honestly its hard to justify gitz for 32p per model
snikrot - could see some uses...
painboyz - meh
zagstruk - meh maybe if lots of jumpboyz are around but for 12p per model idk
warboss - seems allright with killa klaw and biggest boss, put him in a transport and wait till it pops or arrives at final destination
weirdboy - only in infantry heavy lists
wartrukk - meh i just dont trust that git, maybe i'm wrong on that one though
SAG - dead




Automatically Appended Next Post:
maybe two patrols arent that bad... 2cp's seems ok.

one deathskull with all the shooty stuff and a goff one for makari meganobz (maybe DS reroll is better suited for min mobs?), nobz and a couple of mekgunz (they dont benefit from culture anyway)

could help with the troop tax. gretchin arent as usful for 50 points and boyz need to be fielded en masse (trukks and footsloggin ones)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the list i am playing around (about 1500)



thought about flashgitz in a squiggoth but abandoned the idea because twas too expensive pointswise

RedNoak wrote:
and dont forget that cover is gained if in 3" of a ruin or building, so sneaky gitz get the cover bonus if staying close to terrain without losing the LOS blocking trait.

That's not how the rules work. You gain cover if you are within 3" of an OBSTACLE and fully behind it, ruins are AREA TERRAIN who require you to be inside them to benefit from cover. None of the pre-defined obstacles have the obscuring trait and only ruin walls have "dense" but do not provide a bonus to armor because they lack the light terrain keyword. Or, in other words, you cannot be hidden from sight and receive a cover bonus from the same piece of terrain.

Does "Bring it Down" work on per vehicle or per vehicle unit?
If its per vehicle thats kinda bullcrap because suddenly vehicle units are a HUGE vp sink, not just orks suffer from that. That alone will stop me from using killakanz/grot tanks, nevermind the price hykes.

I'm not sure where people are seeing the rules for the secondary objectives.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Does "Bring it Down" work on per vehicle or per vehicle unit?
If its per vehicle thats kinda bullcrap because suddenly vehicle units are a HUGE vp sink, not just orks suffer from that. That alone will stop me from using killakanz/grot tanks, nevermind the price hykes.

I'm not sure where people are seeing the rules for the secondary objectives.

It's per model, sadly. So a unit of 6 Killa Kans can give up 12 VPs.

RedNoak wrote:
IDK... i am playing around with a list and honestly i don't know what HQ's to pick... a KFF mek for sure... but the rest?

Easy. Warboss (or Ghaz), 1-2 Weirdboys, 1-2 KFF Meks. If you have Goffs, Makari can be tossed in there. Baddruk is actually still decent as a shooty HQ choice, although Flash Gits require some thinking right now. 32 points is... harsh.

You have to engage enemies on two fronts now for the primary, so you might start seeing 2 KFF meks in a more infantry based list.

To the whole Makari debate --

The same reason you bring kommandos is the same reason you bring Makari. They both help you with secondaries.

that...needs to change...
thats absolute bull that a squad of mini-vehicles offers just as much VP as a battlewagon or a naut.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
that...needs to change...
thats absolute bull that a squad of mini-vehicles offers just as much VP as a battlewagon or a naut.

11+ wound vehicles offer 3. But yes. Grot tanks will just max out that secondary for them.

I think you either go balls deep into vehicles ( remember, two burna bombers alone is 6 VP), or you leave them at home.

It’s hard because even Smasha guns offer 2 VP each and infantry lists want those for fire support

Still need to see the fw index and saga faq...
but I’m still leaning toward few vehicles and a mainly goff ghaz boy spam list as most competitive. Deny your opponent secondaries and use your infantry Obj secured boy spam to overwhelm objectives and play the points game... make your opponent waste all thier anti tank shooting and deny them most bring it down secondaries. Use greentide to annoy your opponent with respawning units and medi squig to keep ghaz alive. Play the anti meta game... Deny them warlord w ghaz, limit thier points w bring it down to mainly just 2x burna bombers. Swarm the objectives with melee buffed boyz and keep them alive w kff big Mek, and painboy. It’s a game of attrition where orks are aptly built to survive. At this point they can only win by denying you primary or killing off your characters and trying to secure objectives over your troops.

Secondary ork list is Deathskull buggy spam... which is likely more fun than the above greentide list but less competitive.

I’m hugely annoyed at this edition sloppy job at points and rules.. it all feels very rushed and no real attempt at balance was made and they can’t really blame covid since everything was already at print in April. I’m also annoyed that the PA books are not made with 9th in mind like Gw said since core rules in 9th weren’t used such as the cap on hit modifiers and saga having kustom jobs like pincha that adds +3 to hit roll!!!
Overall a sloppy rushed job and it’s obvious if you weren’t an army in the box sets they are only intended to fix it when they get to your codex...

I'm really surprised that so much of you guys want to take trukks when open-topped rules are such a hot mess. What about embarked units abilities ? Klan kultur ? When they disembark of an engaged transport, can they shoot ? Charge ?

I can guess what will be your answer, but for having been in front of someone disagreeing (in good faith), I had a hard time proving anything...

 IronSlug wrote:
I'm really surprised that so much of you guys want to take trukks when open-topped rules are such a hot mess. What about embarked units abilities ? Klan kultur ?

I was the only one suggesting trukks, and boyz literally don't care for any of that, no matter which way the argument goes.

When they disembark of an engaged transport, can they shoot ? Charge ?

There is no ambiguity in the rules about that.

its assumed to be an oversight the way transports work atm. The way its worded right now completely breaks open-topped, theres no way it stays worded that way.

But just to be safe, email the 40kfaq about it. They wont fix it unless enough people raise awareness of it.

 IronSlug wrote:
I'm really surprised that so much of you guys want to take trukks when open-topped rules are such a hot mess. What about embarked units abilities ? Klan kultur ? When they disembark of an engaged transport, can they shoot ? Charge ?

I can guess what will be your answer, but for having been in front of someone disagreeing (in good faith), I had a hard time proving anything...

I'm sure it'll get FAQd. The core rules has some bugs that we know GW is fixing (See: Smite spam).

The idea in a mechanized list taking another T6, 10 wound model with a 4+/6++ seems really solid to me for 65 points. I might be able to get some value out of my mandatory troop choices while providing even more vehicle wounds on the board? yes please.

Keep in mind, trukks are actually decently tanky for the points. There's a 30% chance either you'll save that 6++ OR get the ramshackle ability to go off.

Yeah, trukks went up by what, 1 point, which effectively means they went down. And 10W also just means 2 Bring it Down points so they're not as punishing there, and if you blow them up then a bunch of troop-tax obsec boyz jump out and hold the objective.

It might really work, or it's just a bunch of us wanting trukkboyz to be a thing again

Agree, at 166 points for a unit for trukkboys they are a nice middling ground between 50 points gretchin and 245 point full mobs. Unlike in 8th, they have clear purpose now and that is being a mobile troops unit for scoring secondaries.

My list for Sunday, all goff:



The plan is to roll up everything killy up the middle and hope my opponent panics and tries to kill Thrakka ASAP. Classic threat overload, pretty much all of my threats suck to shoot, be it Thrakka, the naut, the forktress or -1 to hit deff dreads. The trukks are going to try setting up as many tellyporta homers as possible, or fight other troops off objectives.
So in case you wonder why it's 1800 points... there was some confusion in my group around the point hikes and some people wishing for less points in their first game of 9th. So we somehow ended up with 1800. To get to 2k, I'd proabably upgrade the gretchin to boyz and add a burna bommer.