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Glutted on the life force of the Necrontyr, the empowered C'tan were near unstoppable and unleashed forces beyond comprehension. Planets were razed, suns extinguished and whole systems devoured by black holes called into being by the reality-warping powers of the star gods. - Necron Codex, 8th Edition, page 9.
The Newcrons still have the C'tan who created black holes and destroyed solar systems (but so do Oldcrons).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 03:20:34
Which begs the question how the newcrons defeated the C'tan if they were so powerful. It's a stupid plot point, and is indicative of Ward's lack of coherency.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 11:08:56
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Which begs the question how the newcrons defeated the C'tan if they were so powerful. It's a stupid plot point, and is indicative of Ward's lack of coherency.
The C'Tan we're weakened by their nettle with the old ones and wrongly believed the necrons we're totally under their control.
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
Which either makes Szarekh the tricksiest bastard in the universe or the Deceiver incredibly stupid. Like, even as someone who thinks newcrons were an overall positive move the origin story doesn't really check out.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Which begs the question how the newcrons defeated the C'tan if they were so powerful. It's a stupid plot point, and is indicative of Ward's lack of coherency.
The C'Tan we're weakened by their nettle with the old ones and wrongly believed the necrons we're totally under their control.
They can manipulate reality to their whim and could eat planets. The fact that some necrons weren't under their control is irrelevant, as they shouldn't have the firepower to kill something like that. The fact they gave the command protocols to one necron is idiotic. The entire newcron backstory is badly written, full of holes and reeks of Ward's usual "Look, Look! These guys are sooooo kewl! Look at them do stupid impractical gak that falls apart as soon as you start thinking about it logically!" It's like a bad shounen anime.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 11:34:39
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Which begs the question how the newcrons defeated the C'tan if they were so powerful. It's a stupid plot point, and is indicative of Ward's lack of coherency.
The C'Tan we're weakened by their nettle with the old ones and wrongly believed the necrons we're totally under their control.
They can manipulate reality to their whim and could eat planets. The fact that some necrons weren't under their control is irrelevant, as they shouldn't have the firepower to kill something like that.
The fact they gave the command protocols to one necron is idiotic. The entire newcron backstory is badly written, full of holes and reeks of Ward's usual "Look, Look! These guys are sooooo kewl! Look at them do stupid impractical gak that falls apart as soon as you start thinking about it logically!" It's like a bad shounen anime.
Um, you mean like every other aspect of warhammer 40,000? Not to mention star wars, star trek, every superhero story and most other forms of entertainment?
As to particulars, the necrons built the Blackstone fortresses allegedly to destroy the old ones but actually to shatter the C'Tan. The C'Tan, perhaps not understand material, physical technology and apparatus very well given they never needed to use them, didn't get the idea that they could be quickly repurposed.
Yes you need to suspend disbelief quite a bit to enjoy 40k.
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
Except the necrons did not build the Blackstone fortresses. Its been heavily implied that the old ones did. They are called the Talismans of Vaul by the Eldar. Why would they name a necron weapon after an Old One, aka one of their gods? There is nothing in the fluff that supports that the necrons built it, especially when you consider that the Blackstone fortress is a WARP based weapon and doesn't share any visual design elements with necron tech.
There's a difference between suspension of disbelief and blindly accepting everything the author writes at face value.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 12:18:38
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Tyran wrote: If the Necrons didn't have the firepower to damage C'tan, then they would have been useless in the WiH, as the Old Ones were even more powerful.
The entire logic of the conflict requires the Necrons to be powerful enough to threaten the Old Ones and by extension the C'tan.
Except the Old Ones weren't more powerful. The necrontyr were actually more technologically advanced than the Old Ones, but the Old Ones were more mobile due to their mastery of the warp. So the Old Ones would attack the necrontyr by surprise, then retreat back. The C'tan helped the necrontry by bending reality in such a way that such attacks were ineffective. The Dolmen gates were a good idea in this sense, as they explained how the necrons countered the Old One's greatest advantage over then. But then the writer did a stupid thing and made the necrons rely on the gates for everything.
Besides, think about it logically - The Necrons and the C'tan fought together against the Old Ones. If the C'tan were weakened by the battle, then logically the necrons would have taken casualties as well. If the C'tan are that powerful, then they should be able to deal with necrons in a weakened state, even if they spent some of their powers. It would make more sense if the necrons betrayed the C'tan some time after the war in Heaven, when they regained some of their strength. In the old fluff there was a C'tan civil war. I do not believe this happened in the new fluff, which is a pity, as that would have been the perfect time for the necrons to turn against the C'tan. Of course, you'd then have to address how the necrons gained independence, and no "the silent king did it" is not a valid reason, as giving control of your slave race to a slave is a really, really dumb idea. Arrogant is not a synonym for stupid.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 14:20:25
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
The premiss for the argument is presented rather flatly. The question is more difficult then just old 'crons vs new 'crons.
There are at leats 3 major arias to be looked at, perhaps more.
The visual aesthetic is one major component. The old crones had this techno-magic look. Their wraights looked like metal ghosts. The new look incorperates a very different aesthetic, and all the robot sub factions got an overhaughl.
Second is how they play on the battlefield. The old crones had very few units. They had some iconic units like the old monolith that was near unkillable. Even if nev crones did not come along it is unlikly play mecanics would have remained intact from the old codex up until 8th edition as much changed. Where as the new 'cron codex has so much more units and more options.
Lastly there is a big change in the backround and story. This is perhaps the biggest hurdle. The 'crons as an army moved away from these mindless chtulu servant like enteties and over into more local kings and serfs, ruling over their place of the galaxy. Lets look at some of the major points of this issue.
The new 'crones are just not that scary. Their bakcground got fleshed out quite a bit and opinions are varied. Things like the Celestial Orrey and how it can destroy everything in the known galaxy was not well met by all. But they got fleshed out a lot. And that was the main problem with the old crones. They, like the tyranids, are hard to use in any form of campain or story. They had no personalaty and no will on their own, it was frustrating from a story tellers perspective. And that change was nessassery in my opinion. While subjective, it can be objectivly stated to be a hot potato.
I miss the old necron fluff, and I really wish they where still around. I would like to see 'bound' 'crons out there and loose C'tan pulling in strings. Forge world did have a campain book featuring the new 'crons. It has some really cool bakcground stuff, I really like it. It would not have been possible with the old 'crons.
Tyran wrote: If the Necrons didn't have the firepower to damage C'tan, then they would have been useless in the WiH, as the Old Ones were even more powerful.
The entire logic of the conflict requires the Necrons to be powerful enough to threaten the Old Ones and by extension the C'tan.
Except the Old Ones weren't more powerful.
The necrontyr were actually more technologically advanced than the Old Ones, but the Old Ones were more mobile due to their mastery of the warp. So the Old Ones would attack the necrontyr by surprise, then retreat back. The C'tan helped the necrontry by bending reality in such a way that such attacks were ineffective.
Besides, think about it logically -
The Necrons and the C'tan fought together against the Old Ones. If the C'tan were weakened by the battle, then logically the necrons would have taken casualties as well. If the C'tan are that powerful, then they should be able to deal with necrons in a weakened state, even if they spent some of their powers.
It is hinted that the Old Ones were more advanced on another fields, especially secrets of immortality that were the ultimate goal of the Necrontyr.
The triarch decide to go against the Old Ones to unite the Necrontyr Empire against one enemy, and the official reason is something along the line of "they don't wan't to share their secrets with us".
"Only the Old Ones, first of all the galaxy’s sentient life forms, were a prospective foe great enough to bind the Necrontyr to a common cause. Such a war was simplicity itself to justify, for the Necrontyr had ever rankled at the Old Ones’ refusal to share the secrets of eternal life." Necron codex page 8
The Necrontyr are advanced beyond comparison with current 40k factions, but the Old Ones are on another level, the super-plot level
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 14:20:48
Yes, in terms of warp tech and biotech the Old Ones were probably more advanced than necrontyr. They did create servant races, after all. In terms of overall engineering and hard science the necrons were more advanced, however. It is pretty clear though that the webway and the warp gave the Old Ones a bit of an advantage, as that was a field the necrontyr didn't know much about.
So in a straight up slug fest the necrontyr would win, but in a hit and run engagement the Old Ones would win as the necrontyr were too slow.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 14:33:03
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Tyran wrote: You cannot dismiss warp tech in a slug fest. I mean, some of the most powerful guns in the game are pure warp tech.
And the other most powerful ones are necron tech. The Doomsday cannon and the Deathray are both S10 with high armor pen and multi-damage, you have S16 weapons on the Seraptek, you have the Gauss Pylon, etc. The necrontyr can create a powerful weapons without having to rely on space magic. That's pretty advanced, and they can make more of them.
But that's besides the point; the codex even states that the necrontyr were more advanced than the Old Ones -
Their superior numbers and technologies were constantly outmaneuvered by the Old One's mastery of the webway portals
pg 8, necron codex, 8th edition. This is not old fluff, this is recent.
There is no point in further argument, it explicitly states that necrontyr had the higher tech level, and the Old Ones won by being sneaky gits. The premise that the Old Ones were more advanced than the necrontyr is blatantly false.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 17:34:44
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Which begs the question how the newcrons defeated the C'tan if they were so powerful. It's a stupid plot point, and is indicative of Ward's lack of coherency.
How did they do that? They used a weapon that focused the power of the entire universe and almost shattered reality to do so. It terrified the Necrons so much they erased it from their memories.
Not all of the Necron stuff is written by Ward.
C'tan have been consistently as powerful as I quoted ever since the early editions. The "creating black holes and destroying solar systems" quote is nothing new.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Which begs the question how the newcrons defeated the C'tan if they were so powerful. It's a stupid plot point, and is indicative of Ward's lack of coherency.
The C'Tan we're weakened by their nettle with the old ones and wrongly believed the necrons we're totally under their control.
They can manipulate reality to their whim and could eat planets. The fact that some necrons weren't under their control is irrelevant, as they shouldn't have the firepower to kill something like that.
The fact they gave the command protocols to one necron is idiotic. The entire newcron backstory is badly written, full of holes and reeks of Ward's usual "Look, Look! These guys are sooooo kewl! Look at them do stupid impractical gak that falls apart as soon as you start thinking about it logically!" It's like a bad shounen anime.
Do you know what you are talking about? The Necrons have power far surpassing destroying planets. They have the Celestial Orrery, a "gardening trimmer" that can destroy ever star in the galaxy.
Even Pre Fall Eldar had "overturned world and quenched stars." with their "mere dreams." Even DAOT humanity could shrink stars to sub atomic level.
EDIT: Here is something not written by Matt Ward.
"In the centre of the debris cloud rose a burning ember, a mote of fire ascending from the darkness. It gathered matter and light into itself like a black hole pulling at the surface of Borsis. Hyalhi let the image of it burn into his brain, sinking in deep, because this would have to be remembered too.The being that formed in the centre of the zone of destruction hovered above the tallest spire, and its body was composed of darkness. It had no fixed shape, its only definite feature the crescent of three eyes that burned in its heart. Tendrils of it, composed of torn and compacted metal, dragged it along above the spires. Hyalhi did not have to picture the geography of Borsis to know where it was headed.What followed had to be remembered as well. Hyalhi turned his consciousness this time outside his body, riding the ripples growing in the warp from the impact of the being erupting from its prison. He could see Borsis unfolding beneath him, the endless steel canyons and metal spires rushing past. The Astral Knights had fought across much of the planet's surface but now he saw, from his high psychic vantage point, great palaces and monuments the Astral Knights had not seen. It was the work of endless millennia, the labour of countless scarabs and worker-constructs devoted to deifying their nobles.The entity roared up ahead, shredding the spiretops as it passed and absorbing the fragments of matter that flew up into its swirling mass. Limbs formed and reformed as it hauled itself along, and pulses of raw, alien hatred battered against the surface of Hyalhi's mind. It was not a human emotion, for there was nothing human about this being, but it was unmistakably hatred.The entity crossed into the Labyrinth Wastes. It passed over columns of warrior-constructs arriving to join the final stages of the battle, and those that could feel dismay felt it now as the great darkness bellowed and stormed overhead.(...)Silver and gold glittered as Overlord Heqiroth and his lychguard retinue arrived on the battlements. The darkness bore over them as the moon that passed closest to it was torn apart and absorbed into its body. Heqiroth took one look at the approaching entity and the silvery necrodermis swarmed over his body in a protective shroud.An arm of compacted debris swept the lychguard off the wall. They tumbled down the side of the cathedral along with tonnes of shattered battlement. The darkness loomed closer and the necrodermis squirmed off Heqiroth's body as if of its own accord, drawn off in ductile streamers into the swirling blackness.The entity wove the necrodermis around it into the form of the star-god the necrons had first beseeched, then worshipped, then destroyed. Even this single shard of it was terrifying to see taking shape – it was like a deity of destruction and calamity from some long-forgotten human religion, crowned with three burning eyes, its enormous form clad in liquid metal.Hyalhi did not know the necron language in which Heqiroth spoke to Yggra'nya the Worldmaker, the C'tan imprisoned in the heart of Borsis to power it and guide it towards Mars. It was not a tongue that even needed sound, transmitted in pure information. But Hyalhi could guess it involved pleading, perhaps bargaining, Heqiroth offering lordship of Borsis, every necron under his command, everything he could possibly give in return for being permitted to continue existing.And Hyalhi knew the reply, too. "You betrayed us", Yggra'nya would be saying. "You imprisoned us. You enslaved us to this mad plan to journey to Mars."Heqiroth held up the tesseract in which he had imprisoned and then recaptured Turakhin, no doubt trying to persuade the C'tan that its enslavement had been Turakhin's doing. Yggra'nya snatched the tesseract and it dissolved in its hand, consumed by a purple-black fire, and with it the last glimmer of Turakhin's existence. But it was not enough."You, Turakhin, all that came before, you are all the same." Hyalhi could almost hear the star-god's words and their meaning could not be in doubt. "The whole necron race is our enemy. Now I am free, and you will all be punished."It gave Hyalhi some measure of satisfaction to see Overlord Heqiroth lifted off the battlements and dissected, piece by piece, by the will of Yggra'nya. Each section peeled and lifted away, gradually reducing the overlord to a spindly metal skeleton that squirmed in pain, if necrons could feel it. That, too, was dissolved away until only a glimmering speck of consciousness sat in Yggra'nya's palm. Then the C'tan closed its fist and Heqiroth, too, was annihilated.Yggra'nya raised its arms as if making a sacred pronouncement. The substance of the Cathedral of the Seven Moons came apart and reformed above it, an endless torrent of shattered metal forming great rings that orbited the star-god. Then they became gigantic blades that Yggra'nya stabbed into the surface of Borsis, driving them deep down through the crust of the world it had once built in an earlier age of the galaxy.Yggra'nya dived into the fissure it had opened up. Hyalhi could feel it ripping through the planet, dissolving everything in front of it like a blowtorch through flesh. It tore through the vast power sources that drove Borsis, through the chambers where warrior-constructs were assembled and repaired, through the necropoli of long-forgotten dynasties and the vaults full of war machines and spacecraft. It shrieked through the core of the planet and looped around again, riddling Borsis with molten destruction in its rage.The sky changed from a grey mantle of cloud to a patchwork of light and dark as the cover was blown away. Hyalhi knew what that meant. With the destruction of the generators and reactors at Borsis's core, the shielding around the planet was failing. Whereas before Borsis had been impervious to the torpedoes and lance batteries of the Varv Deliverance Fleet, now its surface was laid bare and open. Hyalhi realised he had been holding his breath, for now he breathed it out in relief.(...)Yggra'nya hovered there, its three eyes turned down towards Hyalhi. There was no doubt the star-god could see Hyalhi. He was the last Astral Knight left on Borsis. Perhaps Yggra'nya wanted to pay its respects, though Hyalhi doubted it.Hyalhi looked up into those burning eyes. Men would have gone mad to see it, but Hyalhi was not afraid.'We will find you!' yelled Hyalhi at the star-god. If it heard him, it gave no reply. It simply shot up into space, the silver streak of its body vanishing into the void.
C'tan Shard of Yggra’nya breaking apart moons and reforming them into blades that rip through the World Engine, which was invulnerable to the torpedoes and lance batteries of the Varv Deliverance Fleet (a sector Imperial fleet). Then the C'tan shard shot up into space.
Oh, so there are other terrible writers.
Still doesn't change the fact that Ward was the first.
Yes, I know about the celestial orrary. It's a stupid concept that makes the necrons even more into over the top special snowflakes. It was introduced in the 5th ed codex, which is where this mess started.
If they have the means to create something like that, why the hell would they even need C'tan in the first place?
Think about it logically; if the necrons were advanced enough to create absurd bits of tech that could break the universe, why did they need to enlist the service of creatures that could also break the universe? Why didn't they use their oh so special orrery to just end the War in Heaven and all of their problems? It's bad writing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 22:19:14
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
"In the centre of the debris cloud rose a burning ember, a mote of fire ascending from the darkness. It gathered matter and light into itself like a black hole pulling at the surface of Borsis. Hyalhi let the image of it burn into his brain, sinking in deep, because this would have to be remembered too.The being that formed in the centre of the zone of destruction hovered above the tallest spire, and its body was composed of darkness. It had no fixed shape, its only definite feature the crescent of three eyes that burned in its heart. Tendrils of it, composed of torn and compacted metal, dragged it along above the spires. Hyalhi did not have to picture the geography of Borsis to know where it was headed.What followed had to be remembered as well. Hyalhi turned his consciousness this time outside his body, riding the ripples growing in the warp from the impact of the being erupting from its prison. He could see Borsis unfolding beneath him, the endless steel canyons and metal spires rushing past. The Astral Knights had fought across much of the planet's surface but now he saw, from his high psychic vantage point, great palaces and monuments the Astral Knights had not seen. It was the work of endless millennia, the labour of countless scarabs and worker-constructs devoted to deifying their nobles.The entity roared up ahead, shredding the spiretops as it passed and absorbing the fragments of matter that flew up into its swirling mass. Limbs formed and reformed as it hauled itself along, and pulses of raw, alien hatred battered against the surface of Hyalhi's mind. It was not a human emotion, for there was nothing human about this being, but it was unmistakably hatred.The entity crossed into the Labyrinth Wastes. It passed over columns of warrior-constructs arriving to join the final stages of the battle, and those that could feel dismay felt it now as the great darkness bellowed and stormed overhead.(...)Silver and gold glittered as Overlord Heqiroth and his lychguard retinue arrived on the battlements. The darkness bore over them as the moon that passed closest to it was torn apart and absorbed into its body. Heqiroth took one look at the approaching entity and the silvery necrodermis swarmed over his body in a protective shroud.An arm of compacted debris swept the lychguard off the wall. They tumbled down the side of the cathedral along with tonnes of shattered battlement. The darkness loomed closer and the necrodermis squirmed off Heqiroth's body as if of its own accord, drawn off in ductile streamers into the swirling blackness.The entity wove the necrodermis around it into the form of the star-god the necrons had first beseeched, then worshipped, then destroyed. Even this single shard of it was terrifying to see taking shape – it was like a deity of destruction and calamity from some long-forgotten human religion, crowned with three burning eyes, its enormous form clad in liquid metal.Hyalhi did not know the necron language in which Heqiroth spoke to Yggra'nya the Worldmaker, the C'tan imprisoned in the heart of Borsis to power it and guide it towards Mars. It was not a tongue that even needed sound, transmitted in pure information. But Hyalhi could guess it involved pleading, perhaps bargaining, Heqiroth offering lordship of Borsis, every necron under his command, everything he could possibly give in return for being permitted to continue existing.And Hyalhi knew the reply, too. "You betrayed us", Yggra'nya would be saying. "You imprisoned us. You enslaved us to this mad plan to journey to Mars."Heqiroth held up the tesseract in which he had imprisoned and then recaptured Turakhin, no doubt trying to persuade the C'tan that its enslavement had been Turakhin's doing. Yggra'nya snatched the tesseract and it dissolved in its hand, consumed by a purple-black fire, and with it the last glimmer of Turakhin's existence. But it was not enough."You, Turakhin, all that came before, you are all the same." Hyalhi could almost hear the star-god's words and their meaning could not be in doubt. "The whole necron race is our enemy. Now I am free, and you will all be punished."It gave Hyalhi some measure of satisfaction to see Overlord Heqiroth lifted off the battlements and dissected, piece by piece, by the will of Yggra'nya. Each section peeled and lifted away, gradually reducing the overlord to a spindly metal skeleton that squirmed in pain, if necrons could feel it. That, too, was dissolved away until only a glimmering speck of consciousness sat in Yggra'nya's palm. Then the C'tan closed its fist and Heqiroth, too, was annihilated.Yggra'nya raised its arms as if making a sacred pronouncement. The substance of the Cathedral of the Seven Moons came apart and reformed above it, an endless torrent of shattered metal forming great rings that orbited the star-god. Then they became gigantic blades that Yggra'nya stabbed into the surface of Borsis, driving them deep down through the crust of the world it had once built in an earlier age of the galaxy.Yggra'nya dived into the fissure it had opened up. Hyalhi could feel it ripping through the planet, dissolving everything in front of it like a blowtorch through flesh. It tore through the vast power sources that drove Borsis, through the chambers where warrior-constructs were assembled and repaired, through the necropoli of long-forgotten dynasties and the vaults full of war machines and spacecraft. It shrieked through the core of the planet and looped around again, riddling Borsis with molten destruction in its rage.The sky changed from a grey mantle of cloud to a patchwork of light and dark as the cover was blown away. Hyalhi knew what that meant. With the destruction of the generators and reactors at Borsis's core, the shielding around the planet was failing. Whereas before Borsis had been impervious to the torpedoes and lance batteries of the Varv Deliverance Fleet, now its surface was laid bare and open. Hyalhi realised he had been holding his breath, for now he breathed it out in relief.(...)Yggra'nya hovered there, its three eyes turned down towards Hyalhi. There was no doubt the star-god could see Hyalhi. He was the last Astral Knight left on Borsis. Perhaps Yggra'nya wanted to pay its respects, though Hyalhi doubted it.Hyalhi looked up into those burning eyes. Men would have gone mad to see it, but Hyalhi was not afraid.'We will find you!' yelled Hyalhi at the star-god. If it heard him, it gave no reply. It simply shot up into space, the silver streak of its body vanishing into the void.
^My eyes!!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/07 22:19:20
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Oh, so there are other terrible writers.
Still doesn't change the fact that Ward was the first.
Yes, I know about the celestial orrary. It's a stupid concept that makes the necrons even more into over the top special snowflakes. It was introduced in the 5th ed codex, which is where this mess started.
If they have the means to create something like that, why the hell would they even need C'tan in the first place?
Think about it logically; if the necrons were advanced enough to create absurd bits of tech that could break the universe, why did they need to enlist the service of creatures that could also break the universe? Why didn't they use their oh so special orrery to just end the War in Heaven and all of their problems? It's bad writing.
Is it stupid how a lot of things in franchises like Doctor Who are overpowered?
And this is from the Apocalypse Expansion book. Not written by Ward or Ben Counter.
Transcendent C'tan are shards of such size and indomitable will that they are too powerful to be contained within a Tesseract Labyrinth; instead, they must serve the Necron cause from the heart of a monolithic Tesseract Vault, which serves as both prison and conduit. Its hull contains layers of node matrices that redirect a portion of the Transcendent C'tan's energies into the cage that holds it captive, but the being within can still age foes to dust, set acres ablaze, or trigger seismic shifts in the planetary crust with but a gesture.
The power of a Transcendent C'tan, even when vastly depowered and sealed within a Tesseract Labyrinth.
EDIT: Why? Because the Celestial Orrery can blow up every star in the galaxy, but that is not enough to stop the C'tan.
Are you saying I am wrong?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind. Bad writing or not, it is written.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 22:30:45
I'm saying the celestial orrery is badly written fluff that shouldn't exist. Yes, its been written. Which is unfortunate. A lot of the newcron fluff is poorly written. The parts about the war in heaven and the great betrayal is just nonsense. It really does read as if the necrons immediately attacked the C'tan right after the Old Ones were defeated, and then the Eldar suddenly came out of nowhere, even though they just lost a brutal war. It doesn't make sense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 22:48:03
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I'm saying the celestial orrery is badly written fluff that shouldn't exist.
I don't believe I doubted that the C'tan are powerful?
Alright. I edited my comment.
But don't you even Pre Fall Eldar could play with stars? This goes back before the Celestial Orrery. The Fulgrim HH book says the Eldar's mere dreams once "overturned worlds and quenched stars."
And the book The Emperor's Mercy shows DAOT tech shrinking a star to sub atomic level.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 23:12:57
That sounds really absurd, and I would consider that to be either an exaggeration or poor writing.
Likewise for the subatomic star thing. I've heard of shrinking stars; the Aonic orb and some dark eldar tech uses the same concept, and its not something new in sci-fi as a whole, but subatomic level is just nonsense. That's like, really small. Why would you even want to do that? Its another case of the writer trying to show off how awesome his creation is and throwing out impressive sounding buzzwords, without considering the implications of what it means in the setting as a whole.
I would not consider Black Library canon, because you can get some really stupid gak in those books. Like anything written by CS Goto, for example.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/07 22:58:15
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One should also keep in mind several different factors.
The Necrontyr were not quite at the level of tech the Necrons had. They were farther along than any other race before, though. The C'tan gave them even more due to their unique perspective on the galaxy.
The Eldar were still growing when the War in Heaven ended, and only came in to power later. They were strong enough to encourage the Silent King to back off conquering the galaxy after getting their revenge on both Old One and C'tan, but I doubt they were at their height back then like they were when they created the Eye of Terror.
Let's also keep things in perspective. The Old Ones abilities in biology and the Warp were never matched by Necrontyr or Necron. The more "physics"-based technology, though, the Necrons were vastly superior. The Necrontyr were probably only a little better than the Old Ones, but their bodies limited them, and it took the C'tan and their perspective to truly crack in to abilities that rivaled or exceeded the Old One's Psyker powers. Too bad they lost their souls in the bargain.
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: That sounds really absurd, and I would consider that to be either an exaggeration or poor writing.
Likewise for the subatomic star thing. I've heard of shrinking stars; the Aonic orb and some dark eldar tech uses the same concept, and its not something new in sci-fi as a whole, but subatomic level is just nonsense. That's like, really small. Why would you even want to do that? Its another case of the writer trying to show off how awesome his creation is and throwing out impressive sounding buzzwords, without considering the implications of what it means in the setting as a whole.
I would not consider Black Library canon, because you can get some really stupid gak in those books.
Like anything written by CS Goto, for example.
Its not just BL saying the Eldar can play with stars, its every piece of lore.
The Eldar themselves said the stars once lived and died at their command. Same with what the narration in the Fulgrim HH book said.
Here is DAOT shrinking stars.
Spoiler:
"Time, Madeline, time. Please hurry," Roth said, reminding her of the battle that threatened to overrun them.
"These are not the exact words. But it seems to suggest that when the planets are not in alignment, the embryonic star is in a stasis state of condensation, shrinking towards itself. It becomes dense matter. They describe it as coiling slumber."
"Please, for us laymen?" Captain Silat asked.
"Dense space matter becomes immeasurably heavy. You would not be able to budge this silo anywhere with all your industrial machines. It would also be in a stasis-state of reduction."
"I see. So what does it say about when the Medina Corridor is in the correct alignment?" Roth asked.
Madeline shrugged her suit. "I can only gather from what I read here. When the polar lines are in alignment, it changes the polar alignment of planets. The embryonic star contained within goes into a state of expansion, and its mass becomes less dense. Light enough to be transported in its state of stasis."
"Transported and perhaps released from stasis?" Roth said. He flexed the lead-lined leather across his neck to smear the sweat away. It was cold in the chamber but he was sweating profusely. A by-product of too much adrenaline.
"Correct. Once the stasis state of this star is broken, it will continue to expand and expand and expand."
"The Archenemy do not need this star to destroy the Medina Worlds. That would bring them nothing. But once the stasis is broken, they can transport this star anywhere, even to Terra, or the Cadian Gate. Better it here, than anywhere else." Captain Silat was thinking strategically, as he had been taught to.
Madeline left that statement unchallenged. For a while nobody said anything. Within that silo, captured in stasis, was an embryonic star. This was just one of the Old Kings that pre-Imperial Medinians had worshipped. But this one they had plucked from the sky with the help of the Early Sentients. This was the angry god they would unleash if ever their civilisations were threatened.
The very same angry god who had been unleashed in the Reclamation Wars. The star hadn't been in expansion then, the polar conduits had not been carved to the precise schematics ordained by the Early Sentients. Instead the gamma flare as the star sparked and returned to stasis had eroded Aridun's ozone and caused the mass extinction. This thing was a destroyer of worlds.
"I'll break it."
Everyone turned to look at Roth.
"I'll break it from stasis right now," Roth declared again.
Madeline opened her mouth to speak but Roth silenced her with a wave of his hand.
"There's no time to think about it. The Archenemy will take this and they will use it on the Bastion Stars. I cannot allow that. Better I release it from its sleep here. How big can a star get?"
"Big enough, probably, to consume the entire Medina Corridor. It's impossible to tell," Madeline suggested.
"Medina is gone. Chaos has subjugated the whole damn system."
Roth turned to face the silo, patting it gently with his Tang-War gauntlet. With one swift motion he pushed the silo over. It yielded like a ripe fruit and toppled from its base with a clang that echoed around the perfect amplification of the cubic chamber.
"Go now. Or stay if you must. I'm going to open this here."
Madeline moved towards Roth, but Captain Silat stopped her and tried to usher her away by the elbow.
"Professor de Medici. Your service has been invaluable to me," Roth said.
The inquisitor stood over the bell silo. He tugged the mitten off his Tang-War gauntlet and allowed his weapon to charge. He took one last look at the artefact that had cost him so much. The Old King, the Star Ancient, the astronomical body worshipped as something it had no right to be. Roth lifted his power fist and fractured the silo in one clean strike.
The tomb bell was split, opening a chasm down its centreline. Inside was the star, now released. At first it was subatomic, an infinitesimal particle invisible to the naked eye. Yet its existence was undeniable as it bathed the entire chamber in an ambient green glow. It was like a microbial sun casting its light for an interior universe, colouring the sweeping map of the Medina Corridor, illuminating the mathematical lines.
Roth could feel its energy, thrumming harmonics in the air, prickling heat upon his skin. He waited in reverent silence as the star continued to grow. Soon it was as large as a fist, a boiling sphere of emerald gas. The interior casing of the broken tomb bell began to scorch and bubble into molten slag. The temperature and radiation accelerated so quickly that Roth could wait no longer. Without a word, the Task Group scrambled for cover as the star began to awaken.
DURING THE SIXTY-EIGHTH hour of the Last War, the embryonic star was roused from its dormant state.
At the centre of the four hundred-kilometre wall of Fortress Chain, a swirling disc of light could be seen, even from orbit by the 9th Route Fleet. It appeared as a whirling nexus, the energies of thermonuclear fusion spearing outwards with solar flares. The pulses even disrupted communications equipment on board the Carthage at high anchor.
The last Naval craft to leave Aridun tried to evacuate as many personnel as it could carry from the excavation site. Brigade commanders and staff generals were crammed alongside shell-shocked privates and NCOs. The Naval pilots simply tried to get as many bodies into their hangars before the Ironclad overran the perimeter.
Inquisitor Roth - all that remained of the Conclavial Task Group - along with a Professor Madeline Rebequin Louise de Medici boarded the last flight out of Aridun. A Marauder fighter-bomber was risking one last sortie to evacuate Roth. They carried him up on a stretcher, the Guardsmen parting the crowd for Inquisitor Roth as he was rushed up the landing ramp. Already some of the NCOs nearby were barking at the younger soldiers to make way for "their general".
The CantiCol still fought, up until the last hour of the planet's existence. The resistance, however, was largely pyrrhic. Pockets of CantiCol Guardsmen who had been scattered during the Archenemy siege continued to resist. Wallowing through the smoke, Guardsmen sniped at Ironclad formations. For the many who had run out of ammunition, they took themselves out into the middle of the streets, clutching unpinned grenades to their chest. They walked out into the night to find a suitable patch of rubble and lay down to die. It was in the hope that they would fall asleep and release the grenade, or the Archenemy would disturb them. Either way it was as quick and dignified a death as they could manage.
Before the fourth dawn of the Last War, the CantiCol no longer existed as a fighting regiment of the Imperial Guard. But by then, the entire Medina Corridor was well on its way to extinction. The embryonic star had convulsed into a rapidly expanding swirl of dust and dark matter. It glowed and flashed like the heart of a scarlet hurricane. Cones of contrasting green gamma flashed from its pressure gradient as expanding gas clouds boiled around it in smoky wreaths. The incalculable heat and pressure entirely consumed the planet of Aridun, and as it gradually gyrated into an expanding sphere, it consumed Cantica, Orphrates and Kholpesh. Within the end of the lunar cycle, the star had expanded into a fully-fledged white sun
Ah, well in that case it depends on the writing. If its "live and die at their command", then that could just be a fancy way of saying that Eldar could create or destroy stars. Which is doable. Its a lot different than "I dreamed of Isha and destroyed a nearby solar system. Whoops"
Do you have a source of a non-BL book where it says that? Like in a codex or a white dwarf?
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Ah, well in that case it depends on the writing. If its "live and die at their command", then that could just be a fancy way of saying that Eldar could create or destroy stars. Which is doable. Its a lot different than "I dreamed of Isha and destroyed a nearby solar system. Whoops"
Do you have a source of a non-BL book where it says that? Like in a codex or a white dwarf?
It should say so in the Eldar codices. The Dark Eldar Codex says the Dark Eldar stole and completely drained stars.
Look, 40k is not the strongest setting, but it has its own Godlike entities and factions.
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: Ah, well in that case it depends on the writing. If its "live and die at their command", then that could just be a fancy way of saying that Eldar could create or destroy stars. Which is doable. Its a lot different than "I dreamed of Isha and destroyed a nearby solar system. Whoops"
Do you have a source of a non-BL book where it says that? Like in a codex or a white dwarf?
White Dwarf said the Pre Fall Eldar could birth stars out of sheer psychic power.
This is from the Craftworld Eldar 8th Edition Codex:
Lost in the vastness of space, the craftworlds float in utter isolation like scattered jewels upon a pall of velvet. Distant from the warmth of sun or planet, their domes gaze into the darkness of empty space. Inner lights glisten like phosphorus through semi-transparent surfaces. Within them live the survivors of a civilisation abandoned aeons ago amidst terrifying destruction. These are the Aeldari, a race that is all but extinct, the last remnants of a people whose mere dreams once overturned worlds and quenched suns.
At their peak, nothing was beyond the Aeldari’s reach and nothing was forbidden. The ancient race continued their glorious existence unaware or unwilling to acknowledge the dark fate that awaited them. They plied the stars at will, experiencing the wonders of the galaxy and immersing themselves completely in the endless sensations that it offered them. Such was the technological mastery of the Aeldari that worlds were created specifically for their pleasure, and stars lived or died at their whim.
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