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Tyel wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Riptides aren't actually very good. BS4+ costing around 280 points with proper upgrades. It's really just drones that are OP. Intercepting lascannon shots with 10 point models that don't even need to be in LOS to block the shot is pure nonsense. FFS they can intercept volcano cannon shots.

IMO riptides should get a price drop and savior protocols should get a rewrite. (to intercept a drone must be in LOS of the shooter). Then broadsides and riptides could get the points drops they actually deserve.

Uh... how cheap do you think Riptides should be?

18 S6, AP-2 (because you will) D2 shots are not bad. Especially in a world where we consider the Ravager to be a monster with 9 S5/AP-3/D2 shots.
8 S5/AP-1 shots that ignore LOS are also reasonably tasty.
Sure base BS 4+ isn't great and its a heavy weapon - but you can, and most likely will, put 5 marker lights on any specific unit you want dead that turn.

Its hard for me to think that a Dissie Ravager should be around 140/150, but that a standard loadout Riptide should only be around 250.

Your falling into the same logically flawed argument that GW do all the time your compairing something in a non like for like situation and missing context.

5 markerlights means 3 42 point charictors plus 3 25 point charictors and thats assuming you arnt shooting at -2 or -3 to hit modifier shenanigans. Just to get +1 to hit and reroll 1's
Your also using nova charged weapon profile. So its -1 wound
So its a 278 point model plus 201 points of charictors your compairing to a dissy ravager

Ice_can wrote:
Your falling into the same logically flawed argument that GW do all the time your compairing something in a non like for like situation and missing context.

5 markerlights means 3 42 point charictors plus 3 25 point charictors and thats assuming you arnt shooting at -2 or -3 to hit modifier shenanigans. Just to get +1 to hit and reroll 1's
Your also using nova charged weapon profile. So its -1 wound
So its a 278 point model plus 201 points of charictors your compairing to a dissy ravager

I can see what you are saying here - but I am not really convinced.
Yes you lose a wound for overcharging - but you have 14. You are not impacted until you get to 6. In my experience riptides tend to stay healthy or they have been focus fired and are dead. The times when they are nibbled down to 2-3 wounds are pretty rare (typically it means your opponent's fluffed their dice). You can then break out stimulant injector if you have the CP anyway (and if you are on one wound or 6-7 there is the heal stratagem, although we are talking niche on niche now).

Fireblades are cheap HQ slot fillers that make Fire Warriors awesome. Really not convinced they represent a significant tax. You have uplinked markerlight for an additional D3.
You can take your 3 marksmen, or a blob of pathfinders/marker drones. I don't think marksmen are the most efficient choice - but they are the hardest for your opponent to get rid of. Pathfinders by contrast are fragile but very cheap. People seem to hate the fact they are BS5+ if they move - but they have range 36" plus the vanguard move so you shouldn't really need to. I know I know, planet bowling ball, but still. Drones meanwhile are useful as already mentioned.

You can also break out Kauyon for one turn, and sure you can't move, but rerolling all hits on shooting is good even with zero markerlights.

I'm not saying the riptide needs a nerf. I think its fine where it is. But if it were to get a discount of any scale I think it would be pushing into overpowered territory.

Tyel wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Riptides aren't actually very good. BS4+ costing around 280 points with proper upgrades. It's really just drones that are OP. Intercepting lascannon shots with 10 point models that don't even need to be in LOS to block the shot is pure nonsense. FFS they can intercept volcano cannon shots.

IMO riptides should get a price drop and savior protocols should get a rewrite. (to intercept a drone must be in LOS of the shooter). Then broadsides and riptides could get the points drops they actually deserve.

Uh... how cheap do you think Riptides should be?

18 S6, AP-2 (because you will) D2 shots are not bad. Especially in a world where we consider the Ravager to be a monster with 9 S5/AP-3/D2 shots.
8 S5/AP-1 shots that ignore LOS are also reasonably tasty.
Sure base BS 4+ isn't great and its a heavy weapon - but you can, and most likely will, put 5 marker lights on any specific unit you want dead that turn.

Its hard for me to think that a Dissie Ravager should be around 140/150, but that a standard loadout Riptide should only be around 250.

Perhaps 20-30 points cheaper. Also Ion Accelertor needs to be cheaper as well.

Mobility is currently free in GW design. The riptide should outgun and outtank ravagers - Ravagers primary utility is mobility with accuracy.

Ice_can wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Riptides aren't actually very good. BS4+ costing around 280 points with proper upgrades. It's really just drones that are OP. Intercepting lascannon shots with 10 point models that don't even need to be in LOS to block the shot is pure nonsense. FFS they can intercept volcano cannon shots.

IMO riptides should get a price drop and savior protocols should get a rewrite. (to intercept a drone must be in LOS of the shooter). Then broadsides and riptides could get the points drops they actually deserve.

Uh... how cheap do you think Riptides should be?

18 S6, AP-2 (because you will) D2 shots are not bad. Especially in a world where we consider the Ravager to be a monster with 9 S5/AP-3/D2 shots.
8 S5/AP-1 shots that ignore LOS are also reasonably tasty.
Sure base BS 4+ isn't great and its a heavy weapon - but you can, and most likely will, put 5 marker lights on any specific unit you want dead that turn.

Its hard for me to think that a Dissie Ravager should be around 140/150, but that a standard loadout Riptide should only be around 250.

Your falling into the same logically flawed argument that GW do all the time your compairing something in a non like for like situation and missing context.

5 markerlights means 3 42 point charictors plus 3 25 point charictors and thats assuming you arnt shooting at -2 or -3 to hit modifier shenanigans. Just to get +1 to hit and reroll 1's
Your also using nova charged weapon profile. So its -1 wound
So its a 278 point model plus 201 points of charictors your compairing to a dissy ravager

welcome to dakka, where Tau roll only 6's and have infinite markerlight support at all times regardless of reason

I don't think his point is unreasonable. You are going to shoot your riptide at a marker target - but that is a drawback - not an advantage. Riptides - like most tau units - need lots of support to work.

The fundamental problem with the Tau is that the way GW writes "the shooty army" it nails their feet to their deployment zone. Everything has to be as long-ranged as possible, the offensive stats on all the guns have to be straight-up better than everyone else's, all the melee effects and stats have to be complete crap, and in general the whole thing has to be unplayable if you're doing anything other than sitting your ass down in your deployment zone spraying people at the extreme range of your gun.

What the Tau need is for the linear relationship between how close to the enemy they are and how screwed they are to get decoupled; a non-relic Fusion Blade/Onager Gauntlet, WS/BS stats that encourage them to go have adventures, and fewer/weaker Markerlights so that their units don't need to be priced as if their to-hit roll was 50% better than it is.

What they're going to get is probably some token price drops and something that makes Markerlights happen on a flat number to avoid the to-hit penalty problem.

Riggs wrote:
If Landraiders are getting a points drop, do Riptides deserve one as well?

Landraiders are almost never worth their points and rarely used in tournament lists that perform well. Riptides are an auto include, the strongest unit in the codex, and there are 2-3 of them in nearly every single Tau list that has been in the top 10 at a decent size tournament for the entirety of 8th edition. That's like saying if happy meals go on sale, A5 Wagyu should also be on sale.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't. I don't even own one, but currently it breaks the subfaction.

You CAN'T play a simple battalion without a fireblade.
Fire blades are strict gunline infantry support.
The FSE are not supposed to gunline, and are practically the worst at it from all T'au.

They need to fix it. Preferably by giving a way around the commander limit.

Gunlines can be mobile you know...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't. I don't even own one, but currently it breaks the subfaction.

You CAN'T play a simple battalion without a fireblade.
Fire blades are strict gunline infantry support.
The FSE are not supposed to gunline, and are practically the worst at it from all T'au.

They need to fix it. Preferably by giving a way around the commander limit.

Gunlines can be mobile you know...

Not when the support abilities necessary to make the army work are Heavy weapons, and the gunline's weapons are exactly as effective 72" away from the enemy as 2" away from the enemy, but the enemy's weapons aren't effective outside 24".

 Toofast wrote:

Riggs wrote:
If Landraiders are getting a points drop, do Riptides deserve one as well?

Landraiders are almost never worth their points and rarely used in tournament lists that perform well. Riptides are an auto include, the strongest unit in the codex, and there are 2-3 of them in nearly every single Tau list that has been in the top 10 at a decent size tournament for the entirety of 8th edition. That's like saying if happy meals go on sale, A5 Wagyu should also be on sale.

Realistically - the reason riptides are taken to tournaments is to exploit the brokenness of sheild drones/ ITC terrain rules (which make hiding sheild drones really easy). The riptide is mearly decent compared to a lot of options in the codex - it's just the biggest "Battlesuit" unit - plus it has fly keyword which is the reason it's chosen over broadsides.

My buddy says a 10 point drop from 42 to 32 wouldnt be enough for crisis suits. Is he just being a standard tau player or is 32 absolutely a good enough change?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

Riggs wrote:
If Landraiders are getting a points drop, do Riptides deserve one as well?

Landraiders are almost never worth their points and rarely used in tournament lists that perform well. Riptides are an auto include, the strongest unit in the codex, and there are 2-3 of them in nearly every single Tau list that has been in the top 10 at a decent size tournament for the entirety of 8th edition. That's like saying if happy meals go on sale, A5 Wagyu should also be on sale.

Realistically - the reason riptides are taken to tournaments is to exploit the brokenness of sheild drones/ ITC terrain rules (which make hiding sheild drones really easy). The riptide is mearly decent compared to a lot of options in the codex - it's just the biggest "Battlesuit" unit - plus it has fly keyword which is the reason it's chosen over broadsides.

I wouldn't take a Land Raider at its current pricepoint if I could get shield drones for it. The Riptide is tough and can kill things; the Land Raider doesn't have the volume to put damage through on hard targets with Invulnerable saves or the volume to do significant damage to squads of units.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't. I don't even own one, but currently it breaks the subfaction.

You CAN'T play a simple battalion without a fireblade.
Fire blades are strict gunline infantry support.
The FSE are not supposed to gunline, and are practically the worst at it from all T'au.

They need to fix it. Preferably by giving a way around the commander limit.

Gunlines can be mobile you know...

Not when the support abilities necessary to make the army work are Heavy weapons, and the gunline's weapons are exactly as effective 72" away from the enemy as 2" away from the enemy, but the enemy's weapons aren't effective outside 24".

The guy was referring to Fireblades, which from a cursory glance at the codex shows their ability is designed to work with the guns at close range. Maybe I'm missing something here, but why does this not gel with FSE playstyle? They want to get up close and pull away (well, that's how I played them in 5th. Not played Tau in 8th yet though however, for the sake of full transparency) Why does a couple of Fireblades and FW in Devilfish not work this way?

 vaklor4 wrote:
My buddy says a 10 point drop from 42 to 32 wouldnt be enough for crisis suits. Is he just being a standard tau player or is 32 absolutely a good enough change?

A 3-man crisis team averages 250-300 pts due to their weapons. a 30 pt drop on the team puts them at 220-270 pts. They'd still be too fragile for their cost, but their damage efficiency would go up a bit. So... maybe? It kinda depends on their weapons tbh. 24 point missile pods (autocannon equivalents) is just ridiculous.

 vaklor4 wrote:
My buddy says a 10 point drop from 42 to 32 wouldnt be enough for crisis suits. Is he just being a standard tau player or is 32 absolutely a good enough change?

42 pts for 4 shots 18" s5 ap- hitting 1/2 the time... t5 3w, ld 7... does that sound worth it to you? with 5 ML hitting on 3+ reroll 1s, 3 hits... still worth it?
ALso min squad is 3, so if 1 dies, and any sort of -ld psychic shenanigans, which we cannot even attempt to deny on double 6's means likely to lose units to morale easily

 vaklor4 wrote:
My buddy says a 10 point drop from 42 to 32 wouldnt be enough for crisis suits. Is he just being a standard tau player or is 32 absolutely a good enough change?

The internal balance with Crisis suits is screwey enough that dropping them 10pts/model wouldn't be enough to make them a better pick than a Riptide or a Ghostkeel. You've got to remember that a) T5 is way easier to get volume of shots against than T6 or T7 (lasguns are twice as effective against Crisis suits as they are against Ghostkeels, for instance), b) the weapons that can reliably damage a Riptide or a Ghostkeel tend to be lower-volume/higher-power than the weapons that can damage a Crisis suit, so they're more efficiently blocked by Drones, c) a Riptide or a Ghostkeel may pay more per support system, but the Crisis suits are still stick paying more to get the effect across the whole squad, and d) as per GW's bigger-is-better philosophy a gun with one shot is more expensive per shot than the exact same gun with multiple shots (ex. a fusion blaster in the Tau book is 21pts, a fusion collider (the Ghostkeel fusion gun) is 35pts for a d3-shot fusion gun, so a Crisis suit getting two fusion guns is 7pts more expensive than a Ghostkeel with the exact same damage output).

If you dropped them 10pts/model, and cut the cost of most of the guns/support systems a bit, it'd help, but I don't think it'd overcome the inherent advantages of a Ghostkeel/Riptide over a Crisis suit in the long run. Especially with Stimulant Injectors to render the major disadvantage of being a large multi-wound model irrelevant.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't. I don't even own one, but currently it breaks the subfaction.

You CAN'T play a simple battalion without a fireblade.
Fire blades are strict gunline infantry support.
The FSE are not supposed to gunline, and are practically the worst at it from all T'au.

They need to fix it. Preferably by giving a way around the commander limit.

Gunlines can be mobile you know...

Not when the support abilities necessary to make the army work are Heavy weapons, and the gunline's weapons are exactly as effective 72" away from the enemy as 2" away from the enemy, but the enemy's weapons aren't effective outside 24".

The guy was referring to Fireblades, which from a cursory glance at the codex shows their ability is designed to work with the guns at close range. Maybe I'm missing something here, but why does this not gel with FSE playstyle? They want to get up close and pull away (well, that's how I played them in 5th. Not played Tau in 8th yet though however, for the sake of full transparency) Why does a couple of Fireblades and FW in Devilfish not work this way?

Their support abilities are relegated to 2 parts
1-A BS2 markerlight.
2-An aura that improves pulse rifles and carbines at half range (technically also pistols but practically nothing has these).
As rifles are just so superior to carbines its not funny. this means the best thing to DO with him is stand still to make the most of your markerlight, and enjoy the boost to your infantry shooting for the full 15", rather than 9" with the carbine for the exact same buff-its just idiotic to use it for anything BUT a simple rifle carrying firewarrior gunline.

Sure, a gunline "can move", but it really doesn't do so in any meaningful capacity, and defiantly not trying to get within 6" of the enemy to trigger the FSE ability-that's what breachers are supposed to do. except they don't work with fireblades.
And the fact that the devilfish is amazingly bad, and pushing advance and striking up close and personal the way FSE are supposed to is just intentionally shooting yourself in the hoof. its tactically superior not to get that close.

As for getting close and pulling away-no longer a thing as JSJ was cut form the game. FSE are really the "they can't hit back if they are dead" up-close-and-personal shooters, but the trait isn't great (reroll 1s to wound at 6"), the stratagem is god-awful (2CP to get +1 BS to one specific unit type (who is bad to begin with) and only usable on the turn the deepstrike)


If fireblades at least buffed breachers too, they MAYBE they could mesh well in FSE. but currently they just...don't.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
My buddy says a 10 point drop from 42 to 32 wouldnt be enough for crisis suits. Is he just being a standard tau player or is 32 absolutely a good enough change?

42 pts for 4 shots 18" s5 ap- hitting 1/2 the time... t5 3w, ld 7... does that sound worth it to you? with 5 ML hitting on 3+ reroll 1s, 3 hits... still worth it?
ALso min squad is 3, so if 1 dies, and any sort of -ld psychic shenanigans, which we cannot even attempt to deny on double 6's means likely to lose units to morale easily

That's not entirely honest. nobody takes a suit with just 1 gun. also burst cannons are 8 these days, so your "standard" crisis is 40 under new price.
An actual "dakka" crisis would be 56 points, for 12 S5AP- shots at BS3, with T5 W3 Ld8 (shas'vre always there)
Its going to get pretty good on the offensive side, but the issue is they are pretty fragile for the cost still, ESPECIALLY with the good guns.
A 3-BC crisis even after CA still only has a single T5 wound for every 19ish points. that's even worse than marines. if you upgrade to CiBs to do some actual damage, it becomes an 86 point model, having a mere T5 wound for every 29ish points.

Its a glass cannon, except the cannon can't aim and doesn't hit all that hard.

The real Crisis loadout is 3 suits with 3 cyclic ion blasters each, which is currently 288 points total. Add in 6 drones to keep them up, and that’s 348 points. The drones aren’t really optional as Crisis suits will get shredded otherwise.

Dropping the unit 30 points brings them to 318 points on the unit. Still pretty expensive but they’re getting closer to viability.

Honestly, I'm sure sure that will stay the go-to build.

The price drop has a much bigger effect on "budget" builds like triple BC.

Its possible the budget builds will get bumped into efficiency rates.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Honestly, I'm sure sure that will stay the go-to build.

The price drop has a much bigger effect on "budget" builds like triple BC.

Its possible the budget builds will get bumped into efficiency rates.

Maybe, but in my experience I am barely if ever wanting better small arms fire. It’s the big stuff like CIBs gunning down Knights that I feel like I need. Burst Crisis will be more effective but we already have cheap infantry and tons of incidental SMSs and Stealth suits chipping in small arms fire.

 vaklor4 wrote:
My buddy says a 10 point drop from 42 to 32 wouldnt be enough for crisis suits. Is he just being a standard tau player or is 32 absolutely a good enough change?

Nope - anything more than 25 base is criminal on a crisis suit. Plus some weapons really need adjustment. Missle pod should be like 15 points - not 24. Fussion and CIB should probably swap points.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
They already stated that the Eight will get rules for matched play as well.

Or the Eight. When Codex: T’au Empire was released, we had loads of fans ask about fielding Commander Farsight’s elite bodyguard – so, in this year’s Chapter Approved, we’ll be bringing these iconic heroes to life in style. You’ll find a host of new datasheets for using this gathering of Fire caste legends in your games, including matched play.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/02/2nd-nov-the-blood-glory-studio-preview-roundup-extravaganzagw-homepage-post-1/

Will be useless if they don't fix the issue that you can't play a proper FSE battalion right now due to the commander limit, the fact they can't play ethreals, and that fireblade are the opposite of the FSE tactics (who are poor to begin with)

The biggest questions about the eight is what are they going to do with all the gear that they used to have that turned into stratagems, and if any of them will actually worth taking as they got rather random loadouts the make even R'myr blush.

Well, apparently the complete group will become a single LoW choice, circumventing the Commander limit. Really wonder what rules they're going to get... really excited because my T'au are FSE and they've been on my shelf for a while.

Pandabeer wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
They already stated that the Eight will get rules for matched play as well.

Or the Eight. When Codex: T’au Empire was released, we had loads of fans ask about fielding Commander Farsight’s elite bodyguard – so, in this year’s Chapter Approved, we’ll be bringing these iconic heroes to life in style. You’ll find a host of new datasheets for using this gathering of Fire caste legends in your games, including matched play.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/02/2nd-nov-the-blood-glory-studio-preview-roundup-extravaganzagw-homepage-post-1/

Will be useless if they don't fix the issue that you can't play a proper FSE battalion right now due to the commander limit, the fact they can't play ethreals, and that fireblade are the opposite of the FSE tactics (who are poor to begin with)

The biggest questions about the eight is what are they going to do with all the gear that they used to have that turned into stratagems, and if any of them will actually worth taking as they got rather random loadouts the make even R'myr blush.

Well, apparently the complete group will become a single LoW choice, circumventing the Commander limit. Really wonder what rules they're going to get... really excited because my T'au are FSE and they've been on my shelf for a while.

Oh that's different but sadly probably makes just taking a few of them when you don't have the points to take all of them not possible

Do Tau need love? Not anywhere near as much as several other armies. Grey Knights, Necrons, AdMech, umm.. Harlequins.

But as long as the aforementioned get work, Tau can have some, sure.

I really wish they'd look at each and every army and say "okay, is anything overperforming here? Lets scale that down a tad. Anything underused or not used at all? Lets buff these things." It shouldn't be on an army-to-army basis. It should be on a unit-to-unit basis.

I'm still traumatised playing my Dark Angels against our top player's triple Riptide, shield drones spam and two battalions of Fire Warriors. I agree the problem is mostly saviour protocols, this is easily one of the most unfun thingd in the game alongside Disgustingly Resilient. A simple fix could be to allocate each damage taken by a drone to mortal wounds, that way a 6 damage lascannon shot kills 6 drones and not only one. Or make it a 4+ and not 2+.

I wonder what kind of lists you guys are facing when you say a Riptide is not so tough. A 3++ combined with a Ethereal for 6++ and the bazillion drones is just dirty. Now if there wasn't the drone problem I would feel like I had a chance at least.

Their gun is another one of those anti-primaris guns that erase a unit by turn. In that game when I didn't get first turn I knew it was doomed as my Hellblasters would just get shot instantly.

Now I wish Tau, like all codices, could have more viable lists and not be forced to a few spam lists to be competitive. But you can't deny there is a problem with drones and Riptides.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Do Tau need love? Not anywhere near as much as several other armies. Grey Knights, Necrons, AdMech, umm.. Harlequins.

But as long as the aforementioned get work, Tau can have some, sure.

I really wish they'd look at each and every army and say "okay, is anything overperforming here? Lets scale that down a tad. Anything underused or not used at all? Lets buff these things." It shouldn't be on an army-to-army basis. It should be on a unit-to-unit basis.

I'm not sure if they are going to go as far as they need to go with it but this seems like more than just a step in the right direction. If half of these rumors are true. This will be a much better game.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm still traumatised playing my Dark Angels against our top player's triple Riptide, shield drones spam and two battalions of Fire Warriors. I agree the problem is mostly saviour protocols, this is easily one of the most unfun thingd in the game alongside Disgustingly Resilient. A simple fix could be to allocate each damage taken by a drone to mortal wounds, that way a 6 damage lascannon shot kills 6 drones and not only one. Or make it a 4+ and not 2+.

I wonder what kind of lists you guys are facing when you say a Riptide is not so tough. A 3++ combined with a Ethereal for 6++ and the bazillion drones is just dirty. Now if there wasn't the drone problem I would feel like I had a chance at least.

Their gun is another one of those anti-primaris guns that erase a unit by turn. In that game when I didn't get first turn I knew it was doomed as my Hellblasters would just get shot instantly.

Now I wish Tau, like all codices, could have more viable lists and not be forced to a few spam lists to be competitive. But you can't deny there is a problem with drones and Riptides.

I agree something could be changed, I would suggest limiting number of shots which can be shifted off a unit. The issue with the first proposal is that it dumpsters drones as it would mean 60 points worth of drones would get used in the hypothetical 6 damage, in which case they would not be worth taking over more units.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm still traumatised playing my Dark Angels against our top player's triple Riptide, shield drones spam and two battalions of Fire Warriors. I agree the problem is mostly saviour protocols, this is easily one of the most unfun thingd in the game alongside Disgustingly Resilient. A simple fix could be to allocate each damage taken by a drone to mortal wounds, that way a 6 damage lascannon shot kills 6 drones and not only one. Or make it a 4+ and not 2+.

I wonder what kind of lists you guys are facing when you say a Riptide is not so tough. A 3++ combined with a Ethereal for 6++ and the bazillion drones is just dirty. Now if there wasn't the drone problem I would feel like I had a chance at least.

Their gun is another one of those anti-primaris guns that erase a unit by turn. In that game when I didn't get first turn I knew it was doomed as my Hellblasters would just get shot instantly.

Now I wish Tau, like all codices, could have more viable lists and not be forced to a few spam lists to be competitive. But you can't deny there is a problem with drones and Riptides.

I don't think savior protocols is really a problem. It's strong but it's intended to be strong. Tau still have low BS, no assault capability, absolutely no psychic offense or defense, and somewhat poor mobility to balance out their strengths in volume of shooting and resiliency. Tau will continue to struggle to win majors because of their crippling weaknesses.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm still traumatised playing my Dark Angels against our top player's triple Riptide, shield drones spam and two battalions of Fire Warriors. I agree the problem is mostly saviour protocols, this is easily one of the most unfun thingd in the game alongside Disgustingly Resilient. A simple fix could be to allocate each damage taken by a drone to mortal wounds, that way a 6 damage lascannon shot kills 6 drones and not only one. Or make it a 4+ and not 2+.

I wonder what kind of lists you guys are facing when you say a Riptide is not so tough. A 3++ combined with a Ethereal for 6++ and the bazillion drones is just dirty. Now if there wasn't the drone problem I would feel like I had a chance at least.

Their gun is another one of those anti-primaris guns that erase a unit by turn. In that game when I didn't get first turn I knew it was doomed as my Hellblasters would just get shot instantly.

Now I wish Tau, like all codices, could have more viable lists and not be forced to a few spam lists to be competitive. But you can't deny there is a problem with drones and Riptides.

1 Congratulations on just suggesting removing drones and saviour protocols from the game for ever. Thats a classic player over reaction.
2 Shoot the drones it's the obvious choice as they only have a T4 4+Sv 4++ if it is a shield drone which does nothing but tank wounds for 10 points per model.
3 Really how many drones is your opponent bringing in each unit they are Ld6 and are subject to moral and rule of 3 as a FA choice
4 They have to be the same sept as the unit they are saving.
5 They limit the mobility of a riptide with their lower movement
6 An Ethereal does nothing but provide that buff and an a ld buff within 6 inches.

Rockfish wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm still traumatised playing my Dark Angels against our top player's triple Riptide, shield drones spam and two battalions of Fire Warriors. I agree the problem is mostly saviour protocols, this is easily one of the most unfun thingd in the game alongside Disgustingly Resilient. A simple fix could be to allocate each damage taken by a drone to mortal wounds, that way a 6 damage lascannon shot kills 6 drones and not only one. Or make it a 4+ and not 2+.

I wonder what kind of lists you guys are facing when you say a Riptide is not so tough. A 3++ combined with a Ethereal for 6++ and the bazillion drones is just dirty. Now if there wasn't the drone problem I would feel like I had a chance at least.

Their gun is another one of those anti-primaris guns that erase a unit by turn. In that game when I didn't get first turn I knew it was doomed as my Hellblasters would just get shot instantly.

Now I wish Tau, like all codices, could have more viable lists and not be forced to a few spam lists to be competitive. But you can't deny there is a problem with drones and Riptides.

I agree something could be changed, I would suggest limiting number of shots which can be shifted off a unit. The issue with the first proposal is that it dumpsters drones as it would mean 60 points worth of drones would get used in the hypothetical 6 damage, in which case they would not be worth taking over more units.

For me the issue is they can be out of LOS and still used to take hits. Essentially - if you don't have an ignore LOS weapon - the drones will eat all the las cannons and the +1 save in cover riptide will eat everything else. It's only LOS character tanking all over again...WHY DOESN'T GW LEARN - the ability to chose where shots from your opponent go is too powerful. You could go all game and not kill anything. Plus later in the game marker drones can also be used to take hits for the tide.

I see 2 solutions.
#1 drone has to be in LOS of the shooter to be used to intercept.
or
#2 once a drone intercepts a shot during a shooting phase - all the drones in that unit must attempt to sheild the same target if it is selected as a target again. So basically. You shoot a lascannon - drone intercepts. Now you can shoot a bunch of Heavy bolters at the riptide and the drones MUST intercept.

In it's current form it is bonkers. Just be glad that the Storm surge does not have battle-suit keyword or tau would win literally every game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm still traumatised playing my Dark Angels against our top player's triple Riptide, shield drones spam and two battalions of Fire Warriors. I agree the problem is mostly saviour protocols, this is easily one of the most unfun thingd in the game alongside Disgustingly Resilient. A simple fix could be to allocate each damage taken by a drone to mortal wounds, that way a 6 damage lascannon shot kills 6 drones and not only one. Or make it a 4+ and not 2+.

I wonder what kind of lists you guys are facing when you say a Riptide is not so tough. A 3++ combined with a Ethereal for 6++ and the bazillion drones is just dirty. Now if there wasn't the drone problem I would feel like I had a chance at least.

Their gun is another one of those anti-primaris guns that erase a unit by turn. In that game when I didn't get first turn I knew it was doomed as my Hellblasters would just get shot instantly.

Now I wish Tau, like all codices, could have more viable lists and not be forced to a few spam lists to be competitive. But you can't deny there is a problem with drones and Riptides.

1 Congratulations on just suggesting removing drones and saviour protocols from the game for ever. Thats a classic player over reaction.
2 Shoot the drones it's the obvious choice as they only have a T4 4+Sv 4++ if it is a shield drone which does nothing but tank wounds for 10 points per model.
3 Really how many drones is your opponent bringing in each unit they are Ld6 and are subject to moral and rule of 3 as a FA choice
4 They have to be the same sept as the unit they are saving.
5 They limit the mobility of a riptide with their lower movement
6 An Ethereal does nothing but provide that buff and an a ld buff within 6 inches.

Yes...if you can shoot the drones it's not a problem. More often than not you can't.
Literally every fire warriors unit can take 2 man drone units. Drones are basically unlimitted in a tau army. The 2 mans are even better because - they aren't at very much risk from leadership.