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2018/12/04 16:49:51
Subject: Re:Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
mokoshkana wrote: Fire Prisms are incredibly effective when three are taken as they have some nice synergy thanks to a stratagem.
As for your comment on Farseers, you are showing what the larger community misunderstands about the Craftworld Faction. Synergy makes them good. With the exception of Reapers, nothing else is really overpowered on its own.
The issue is stacking doom and haywire or doom plus Drukari shows how undercosted a farseer is. The only reason it's not downright broken in Craftworld codex is the units are carrying some of the cost that should be born by the casters.
Hence why Harlequins plus farsears and Drukari plus farsears is so broken the farseer is undercosted, just the rest of the codex pays instead.
2018/12/04 17:16:59
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
As a normal (and proper) Craftworld player I don't bother with allies. Dark Eldar are lame, Harlequins are boring, and Ynnari are a travesty. However, I suffer penalties and discord because of the "potential" to ally my army to an army I don't play. Furthermore, this nonsense is really only an issue at tournaments - a form of the game I don't play.
2018/12/04 17:40:28
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
dhallnet wrote: Or it's haywire and dissie canons that are undercosted and Farseers are priced correctly. Works both ways.
Kind of agree. Dissies are too cheap for sure, but a Farseer at around 120pts would still be worthwhile. Haywire getting bumped up in cost makes Harlies even more dependent on allies.
Doom could also be FAQ'd to only apply to attacks from CWE units. That would instantly remove all Farseers from DE and Harlie lists
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 17:42:18
Elbows wrote: And therein lies the problem with allies.
As a normal (and proper) Craftworld player I don't bother with allies. Dark Eldar are lame, Harlequins are boring, and Ynnari are a travesty. However, I suffer penalties and discord because of the "potential" to ally my army to an army I don't play. Furthermore, this nonsense is really only an issue at tournaments - a form of the game I don't play.
It's IMHO why everything not buffed out it's skin sucks as the units are over costed because of the undercosted casters. It works when like you say you stick to just Craftworld units but the buffs work on units not paying that craftworld tax and hence why we have overpowering Aeldari soup lists at tournaments.
2018/12/04 17:43:54
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
dhallnet wrote: Or it's haywire and dissie canons that are undercosted and Farseers are priced correctly. Works both ways.
A Farseer is in no way even remotely costed appropriately for acess to DOOM, guide and fortune. Those are worth more than a farseer currently is.
Thousand Sons spells were restricted to their own army. I feel like CW should have the same restriction. It eliminates this mess quite quickly.
Totally agree.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/12/04 17:48:48
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Galef wrote: And it would literally only need to change for Doom, as Guide and Fortune already only apply to CWE units
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Yea, I think it could have possibly been an oversight since it's a rare debuff spell and putting a keyword on it feels weird, but adding 'Asuryani units that target this unit...' wouldn't be too bad.
2018/12/04 17:57:33
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Ynnari is a whole other bag of catladies and we all know it. There should be no such thing as YNNARI units aside for the 3 Characters handing out Auras. And those Characters should be able to be added to any AELDARI detachment without affecting or benefiting from the detachment trait. SFD should be a stratagem they "unlock". but not a unit-to-unit special ability
There's no need to over-tax a Farseer just because other factions have messed up rules/undercosted options. Just like there was no reason to add a "Farseer/Warlock" tax on a WK since you're already paying for the Farseer/Warlock. It seems GW are starting to realize this.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/04 18:00:27
With Shadowswords and Castellans in the game, no other super heavy will be viable.
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Galef wrote: Ynnari is a whole other bag of catladies and we all know it. There should be no such thing as YNNARI units aside for the 3 Characters handing out Auras. And those Characters should be able to be added to any AELDARI detachment without affecting or benefiting from the detachment trait
There's no need to over-tax a Farseer just because other factions have messed up rules/undercosted options.
Yes! 100% agree.
They can retain their keyword, but nothing else gets it, and they also gain the keyword of the detachment they're in. This is a great solution to Ynnari. The characters themselves are powerful individually but don't transfer insane buffs to the rest of the Eldar universe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 17:59:17
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2018/12/04 18:01:43
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
dhallnet wrote: Or it's haywire and dissie canons that are undercosted and Farseers are priced correctly. Works both ways.
A Farseer is in no way even remotely costed appropriately for acess to DOOM, guide and fortune. Those are worth more than a farseer currently is.
I dunno, at 110pts to cast 2 spells he is around where he should be imho. Guide and fortune are good but nothing crazy.
Maybe I missed it (wasn't really looking at what was happening during 7th) but all the fuss about Doom seems rather new and tied to 8th. And it hasn't changed outside of allowing other eldars to make use of it.
As far as I'm concerned, in a CWE list he is around where he should be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 18:03:26
2018/12/04 18:04:36
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Amishprn86 wrote: its pointless as we dont know what GW meant, with or without gear costs.
If you feel that way then stop claiming you know something definitively and using it to argue against people taking it the way that the wording suggests it was intended. My post was just fine before you showed up. Thanks.
You were arguing a Knight is worst than a WK when clearly it isnt unless the WK does go down 200pts instead of 100pts.
So no it wasnt fine. you were acting like you knew, so stop being a hypocrite.
Do you ever even read what you are responding to, or is it just easier to invent statements to argue against?
I didn't say anything about Knight's being worse than anything, I responded to a guy saying WK's wont see much play at all because Knights hit harder, and I pointed out that they are in a different points tier, of course the Knights will hit harder? It would absurd to claim that this is now stronger or weaker than any Knights when we don't even know the proper points costs yet, let alone seeing it on the table.
My post was absolutely fine. I think it's time for you to take a breather and slow down and read what you are responding to. I've never seen someone who misunderstands as much and as as consistently as you do, and I no longer believe it's all accidental, it feels very much like you are just building a new strawman in every post.
meleti wrote: It's more likely than not that GW intended to say Wraithknights cost 300 before weapons, given the size of the points change otherwise. Regardless, there's no need to be an ass over vague language.
Well to be fair, in the same article they called the 20% points increase to Cultists a 'slight' increase. Regarding the Wraithknight they said it would be getting an enormous points decrease. If the 300-something price didn't include weapons, it would be looking at a roughly 20% points decrease. How is that enormous if with the Cultists it was just a slight increase? Either the writers are dorks or you're wrong.
We dont know tho, thats why we should just stop arguing about it and move on. Its getting a drop, and thats good, as is its not being played now, lets all hope its at least cheap enough to feel fun on the table
What are you even doing in a thread about the Wraithknight getting a points decrease if we aren't allowed to talk about exactly what GW has said concerning Wraithknight getting a points decrease? lol, just stop dude.
Why is it all your posts in this thread read like you're trying to start a fight?
The arguments here are that Wraithknights are supposed to be better than Imperial Knights, but aren't even close to being as good. The answer is not to drop them to 300pts, regardless of whether thats with or without the cost of weapons of which the War Com article was annoyingly vague on, but make them worth those 500+pts like it should be. As it stands, with the reduced cost and no other changes the Wraithknight is directly competing with Fire Prism's, Crimson Hunters and Hemlock Wraithfightes and will be the worst of the 4 because any 2 of the others will cost roughly the same but bring the same or considerably more firepower for similar or more durability.
How do you feel about each cost? Is alittle over 300 (lets say 330pts) with HWC to OP? Or just right?
That would either mean the base knight went down over 100pts, or its a mix of base and wargear, i hope the base and gear went down, but if the base went down more so the Skathach Wraithknight would be highly viable!
At 300 to 350pts I think a Wraithknight will be OK, if not spectacular. As I mentioned in the above post, it's biggest problem is that it's competing with Fire Prisms, Crimson Hunters and Hemlocks for the general anti tank role instead of being specialised at taking out really big things like it should be, and all 3 of those other options would still be just flat out better.
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Has anyone brought any of those but the hemlock this entire edition? I forgot fire prisms were even a thing.
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Yeah, plenty. The Fire Prism on it's own is notably lackluster but 3 of them become extremely powerful thanks to how busted Linked Fire is (under no circumstances should that strat be 1CP). Crismon Hunters are still excellent, especially the Exarch, and fill the same roll.
2018/12/04 18:06:49
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Well, one of the things in 8th ed is that SM get mini-DOOM auras now, and all factions get mini-Guide auras.
Which affect all models within 6" at all times for all rolls. Instead of a Power that must be manifested, only impacts one unit, and the reroll-hits doesn't impact CC.
2018/12/04 18:08:56
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Galef wrote: And it would literally only need to change for Doom, as Guide and Fortune already only apply to CWE units
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Yea, I think it could have possibly been an oversight since it's a rare debuff spell and putting a keyword on it feels weird, but adding 'Asuryani units that target this unit...' wouldn't be too bad.
Would you do this only for Doom or all maledictions like Enervate, Jinx, Drain or CSM's Death Hex?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/04 18:17:46
2018/12/04 18:14:27
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
dhallnet wrote: Or it's haywire and dissie canons that are undercosted and Farseers are priced correctly. Works both ways.
A Farseer is in no way even remotely costed appropriately for acess to DOOM, guide and fortune. Those are worth more than a farseer currently is.
I dunno, at 110pts to cast 2 spells he is around where he should be imho. Guide and fortune are good but nothing crazy.
Maybe I missed it (wasn't really looking at what was happening during 7th) but all the fuss about Doom seems rather new and tied to 8th. And it hasn't changed outside of allowing other eldars to make use of it.
As far as I'm concerned, in a CWE list he is around where he should be.
Doom hasn't changed this edition, it's still pick an enemy target, re-roll all failed wounds against them.
The difference is that last edition taking Dark Eldar or Harlequin allies was generall how you made your army much worse, not better. The difference is that Drukhari now have an excellent codex and whilst Disintegrators are costed fine in a codex with extremely limited access to force multipliers of their own, throwing in Doom and Jinx massively changes their damage output.
2018/12/04 18:14:42
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Bharring wrote: Well, one of the things in 8th ed is that SM get mini-DOOM auras now, and all factions get mini-Guide auras.
Which affect all models within 6" at all times for all rolls. Instead of a Power that must be manifested, only impacts one unit, and the reroll-hits doesn't impact CC.
Yeah that's why I don't get why these powers are rated so high by some.
I also play DA and I can get a ton of auras. -1 to hit, reroll all failled hits in every phase, reroll one to wound, get a 4+ invul, etc
Sure, it cost a lot but it's always active and I don't have to worry about it. If i want it to affect something, I just have to move the model accordingly. Not roll dice, maybe spend some CP, etc.
Also, eldars aren't unique in regard of having good psychic powers (they have many though).
2018/12/04 18:17:12
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Though I don’t begrudge the WK points drop, I hope the right things are dropped for the rest of the Craftworld codex because it suffers from one of the most obvious cases of ‘mono build syndrome’ that I can think of. Guardians and Rangers don’t need a drop. Nor do Wraithblades or Guard imo. Virtually all Aspect warriors, Wraith Lords and Jetbikes on the other hand.....
It would be nice to see some more varied Craftworld armies that are viable.
2018/12/04 18:17:40
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Galef wrote: And it would literally only need to change for Doom, as Guide and Fortune already only apply to CWE units
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Yea, I think it could have possibly been an oversight since it's a rare debuff spell and putting a keyword on it feels weird, but adding 'Asuryani units that target this unit...' wouldn't be too bad.
Would you do this only for Doom or all maledictions like Enervate, Drain, CSM's Death Hex?
That seems a bit silly. Doom works by giving all of my units a distinct buff in getting wounds against a specific target, it's not really a debuff ability but a buffing ability. The other psychic powers you mentioned are different by being strictly debuffs, the reduce the abilities of the target unit, it would make no sense to then say they are only reduced against targets/attacks from certain factions.
2018/12/04 18:17:52
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
dhallnet wrote: Or it's haywire and dissie canons that are undercosted and Farseers are priced correctly. Works both ways.
A Farseer is in no way even remotely costed appropriately for acess to DOOM, guide and fortune. Those are worth more than a farseer currently is.
I dunno, at 110pts to cast 2 spells he is around where he should be imho. Guide and fortune are good but nothing crazy.
Maybe I missed it (wasn't really looking at what was happening during 7th) but all the fuss about Doom seems rather new and tied to 8th. And it hasn't changed outside of allowing other eldars to make use of it.
As far as I'm concerned, in a CWE list he is around where he should be.
Doom hasn't changed this edition, it's still pick an enemy target, re-roll all failed wounds against them.
The difference is that last edition taking Dark Eldar or Harlequin allies was generall how you made your army much worse, not better. The difference is that Drukhari now have an excellent codex and whilst Disintegrators are costed fine in a codex with extremely limited access to force multipliers of their own, throwing in Doom and Jinx massively changes their damage output.
Yeah that's what I thought.
Then we might need these powers to be reworded.
2018/12/04 18:18:03
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Galef wrote: And it would literally only need to change for Doom, as Guide and Fortune already only apply to CWE units
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Yea, I think it could have possibly been an oversight since it's a rare debuff spell and putting a keyword on it feels weird, but adding 'Asuryani units that target this unit...' wouldn't be too bad.
Would you do this only for Doom or all maledictions like Enervate, Drain, CSM's Death Hex?
If it happens to Doom then it should be applied to Death Hex. It's a good parallel to make. Doom is more of a problem, because it's bigger force multiplier, but if we're being fair the change should go to all similar spells.
But that I think more about it it's a change that would be really obnoxious and would get screwed up often.
It's probably safer to just raise points on units that get more out of Doom.
2018/12/04 18:23:07
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Another possible "fix" would be to raise the casting value of Doom. Farseers already got a point bump, so no more than 120ppm for them should be fine.
But if Doom is hard to cast, it becomes less attractive to bring and skew so many unit's damage output
Galef wrote: Another possible "fix" would be to raise the casting value of Doom. Farseers already got a point bump, so no more than 120ppm for them should be fine.
But if Doom is hard to cast, it becomes less attractive to bring and skew so many unit's damage output
I was thinking the same thing. WC7 might be too low for how good Doom is.
2018/12/04 18:27:51
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
Aeldari are all intertwined in a fashion. If I could adjust doom, I would have it so that Drukhari and Harlequin units only rerolled rolls of 1. This is a good representation of different Aeldari units working together, but not benefiting from maximum synergy as they are not the same faction. However I would also be just as fine with it being limited to units from the CWE codex.
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
6k
:harlequin: 2k
2k
2k
2018/12/04 18:30:42
Subject: Wraithknight Points Changes Announced Chapter Approved 2018
6k
2k
