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 Insectum7 wrote:


Yeah, I think it works fine. More interesting to me on the Marine side is that GW has decided that +1 Attack and +1 Ld is worth 1 point. (Tacticals vs. Vets) Which is surprising, but I can see the logic to it. The extra attack is rarely used, and Ld. can be avoided easily.

Except for the Intercessors, then it is worth one command point! (I'd rather pay a point for that, thank you very much.)

Karol wrote:

That's just a silly outlook. At what point since the launch of 8th were GK nerfed?

First when razobacks and stormravens got priced hiked, because Gulliman they couldn't take and re-rolls they didn't have access to. Then before the edition started GW thought they smite was too strong, so they gave them baby smite, but forgot to do the same to other armies, so other armies were spaming smite just fine.
then there was the teleportation nerf, and the rule of 3 nerf that killed those armies that run 4-5 units of interceptors. Also each time other armies get new stuff and/or get fixs, but GK get nothing, this counts as a nerf, because everyone is moving forward and the GK are moving back.

Those things applied to everyone. There was no singling out of GK. Rites of Banishment was in the index.

I'm saying they could drop the cost of your current stratagems.

So to run those, Gk players would have to run other armies to get the CP. Why play GK then. Just take DW with plasma vets, some IG, much better army and unlike GK, the player doesn't have to worry that their army will suddenly get phased out, because of the "no GK primaris" thing. Also they could have done the right thing when there was a codex coming out, the FAQ, the CA, the other FAQ, why should they change the GK stratagems now ? they didn't even bother to give them formations or rules for vigilus. And it is hard to imagine a force of anti chaos anti demon dudes doesn't fight chaos and demons.

If they dropped their cost you wouldn't need allies as much...LOTS of people don't have a formation yet.

Stop with the persecution complex.

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Yeah, I think it works fine. More interesting to me on the Marine side is that GW has decided that +1 Attack and +1 Ld is worth 1 point. (Tacticals vs. Vets) Which is surprising, but I can see the logic to it. The extra attack is rarely used, and Ld. can be avoided easily.

Except for the Intercessors, then it is worth one command point! (I'd rather pay a point for that, thank you very much.)

???, You'll have to fill me in on that one.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.

I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.

There are so many versions of CA flying around, they really put out a lot of honeypot versions this time.

That would be quite something is this was a honey pot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Yeah, I think it works fine. More interesting to me on the Marine side is that GW has decided that +1 Attack and +1 Ld is worth 1 point. (Tacticals vs. Vets) Which is surprising, but I can see the logic to it. The extra attack is rarely used, and Ld. can be avoided easily.

Except for the Intercessors, then it is worth one command point! (I'd rather pay a point for that, thank you very much.)

???, You'll have to fill me in on that one.

Formation lets you pay 1 CP to make veteran intercessors with +1A +1LD

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Formation lets you pay 1 CP to make veteran intercessors with +1A +1LD

Ahh, ok. 1 Squad? Seems like just an easy flavor thing, especially as you don't need a new datasheet. There's a case to be made for having the option at battle-time rather than paying the points up front.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Formation lets you pay 1 CP to make veteran intercessors with +1A +1LD

Ahh, ok. 1 Squad? Seems like just an easy flavor thing, especially as you don't need a new datasheet. There's a case to be made for having the option at battle-time rather than paying the points up front.

Yea I don't mind it at all. Besides they comes with 2A anyway so kicking them to 3 is pretty nice.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ahh, ok. 1 Squad? Seems like just an easy flavor thing, especially as you don't need a new datasheet. There's a case to be made for having the option at battle-time rather than paying the points up front.

One CP per squad. And I'd much rather pay 1 PPM for it, the pure Primaris armies are pretty CP starved to begin with.

Yay now intercessors are the equivalent of an ork boy in melee and we know how deadly ork boys are in 5-10 man squads They're also just as deadly as reivers who we all know are also a joke in melee. The sergeants will be where it's at. Giving them a power fist for 9 points puts them up to 26 points with 4 s8 ap-3 d3 damage attacks. That is actually good. Only issue with that though is that it takes 1 CP per squad so if you only run 5 mans you are not getting your full moneys worth, but if you run 10 you still only get one sergeant. So for this to be worth anything you need to build your army with that in mind so you will be spending the points on that sergeant power fist and likely taking 10 man squads to get the most out of the veteran upgrade as well as the one good stratagem to make your bolt rifles Rapid Fire 2.

I think some real big winners here are the centurions who dropped 40 points which is MASSIVE.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Yay now intercessors are the equivalent of an ork boy in melee and we know how deadly ork boys are in 5-10 man squads They're also just as deadly as reivers who we all know are also a joke in melee. The sergeants will be where it's at. Giving them a power fist for 9 points puts them up to 26 points with 4 s8 ap-3 d3 damage attacks. That is actually good. Only issue with that though is that it takes 1 CP per squad so if you only run 5 mans you are not getting your full moneys worth, but if you run 10 you still only get one sergeant. So for this to be worth anything you need to build your army with that in mind so you will be spending the points on that sergeant power fist and likely taking 10 man squads to get the most out of the veteran upgrade as well as the one good stratagem to make your bolt rifles Rapid Fire 2.

Then again, if you're running ten mans, then you have much harder time filling the detachments to get that CP in the first place...

 Crimson wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Yay now intercessors are the equivalent of an ork boy in melee and we know how deadly ork boys are in 5-10 man squads They're also just as deadly as reivers who we all know are also a joke in melee. The sergeants will be where it's at. Giving them a power fist for 9 points puts them up to 26 points with 4 s8 ap-3 d3 damage attacks. That is actually good. Only issue with that though is that it takes 1 CP per squad so if you only run 5 mans you are not getting your full moneys worth, but if you run 10 you still only get one sergeant. So for this to be worth anything you need to build your army with that in mind so you will be spending the points on that sergeant power fist and likely taking 10 man squads to get the most out of the veteran upgrade as well as the one good stratagem to make your bolt rifles Rapid Fire 2.

Then again, if you're running ten mans, then you have much harder time filling the detachments to get that CP in the first place...

Yup that is a very good point and showcases more of the problems with the veterans detachment. I really, really like the idea of it, but I don't see it as being all that practical which makes me very sad.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.

I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.

There are so many versions of CA flying around, they really put out a lot of honeypot versions this time.

So is this the real deal? Someone at GW really though Russ commanders needed to drop 25 points? But predators are fine?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.

I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.

There are so many versions of CA flying around, they really put out a lot of honeypot versions this time.

So is this the real deal? Someone at GW really though Russ commanders needed to drop 25 points? But predators are fine?

Guess we will find out in 2.5 hours.

 Xenomancers wrote:

So is this the real deal? Someone at GW really though Russ commanders needed to drop 25 points? But predators are fine?

Maybe it is a balancing thing. Maybe made the change thinking of the future. Lets say they somehow make the basic game 3000pts, but limit the number of HQs you can take. then a pricier predators could still outnumber the IG commanders in their russes, which would then create balance.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.

I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.

There are so many versions of CA flying around, they really put out a lot of honeypot versions this time.

So is this the real deal? Someone at GW really though Russ commanders needed to drop 25 points? But predators are fine?

Predator weapons dropped. Quad-Las is a 20 point decrease.

Those things applied to everyone. There was no singling out of GK. Rites of Banishment was in the index.

I very much remember a friend of mine running 5 or so chaos dudes all casting full power smite. And at that time my index GK were explained to have nerfed smite, because of it being used en mass being too OP. He used it for months till they nerfed the unit, but by then he just turned his chaos IG in to normal IG.

If they dropped their cost you wouldn't need allies as much...LOTS of people don't have a formation yet.

Ok, but shouldn't rules be given out like triange. Unless of course GW thinks about GK as dead or close to dead, then yeah it makes sense. But then they should tell people that they are putting much effort in to GK. So people could avoid spending money on stuff that doesn't work. I mean do IG need or eldar need extra rules to be played?

Also how and since when is having a good own army worse then needing ally? Unless you mean for GW, then yes being forced to buy another codex or two just to maybe try to see, if your army can be played somehow, makes sense.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.

I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.

There are so many versions of CA flying around, they really put out a lot of honeypot versions this time.

So is this the real deal? Someone at GW really though Russ commanders needed to drop 25 points? But predators are fine?

Predator weapons dropped. Quad-Las is a 20 point decrease.

I feel like, at the new points, a predator that survives the first turn can be worth its points. Still, they are pretty easy to crack

Devilfish going in the right direction, railrifle pathfinders probably still worse than ion but a nice reduction and maybe two squads in a devilish could be a fun gimmick. Crisis, awesome though I'm not sure whether more expensive weapons will be worth it outside of FSE bomb; 45pts for a 3xflamer crisis makes for a nasty assault deterrent though...Broadsides; must be tied to the crazy centurion drop.

Surprised about guardsmen and castellan staying where they're at and really hope that Railgun Hammerheads get something that will bring them in line with imperial counterparts.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.

I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.

There are so many versions of CA flying around, they really put out a lot of honeypot versions this time.

So is this the real deal? Someone at GW really though Russ commanders needed to drop 25 points? But predators are fine?

Predator weapons dropped. Quad-Las is a 20 point decrease.

Did the standard lascannon drop? I don't see that. Twin las did drop. But The autocannon is still a better choice.

I genuinely don't know why anyone should bother with Necrons. They lower the price of Praetorians yet don't do anything about the useless and overcosted Lychguard. Meanwhile, they hugely increase our only decent LOW model.

We may as well all just play Eldar and Space Marines.

Scrivener and Plague Drones getting nerfed is just such a fething fail for nurgle daemons. How is the scrivener even worth almost 100pts.

Sumilidon wrote:
I genuinely don't know why anyone should bother with Necrons. They lower the price of Praetorians yet don't do anything about the useless and overcosted Lychguard. Meanwhile, they hugely increase our only decent LOW model.

We may as well all just play Eldar and Space Marines.

Doomsday Arks dropped 33 points
Warriors are 1 point cheaper
Immortals are 2 points cheaper because of weapons reductions
Tomb Blades are 4 points cheaper because of the same weapons reductions
Command Barges dropped 31 ish points
Stalkers saw almost a 50 point drop
Annihilation Barges dropped 30 ish points
Wraiths dropped 7 points
Destroyers stayed the same (when most were expecting an increase).

Just to name a few... We may not be a top tier codex, but we certainly gained a LOT from CA.

Guessing the thinking on Cultists going up and IG infantry not is roughly thus.

Chaos forces use Cultists as a cheap infantry unit to avoid buying CSM, and there have apparently been some powerful armies built using cultists this way, plus cultist "CP batteries" are possible as well.

Guardsmen tend to be seen in smaller numbers in soup armies where adding a point won't make a lot of difference, plus they don't want to make it harder to run IG as an infantry force, where as you don't run Cultists as an infantry force.


Not I'm not saying I agree, or that it makes much sense, but there you go.

I do however wish that since they have changed so many points that they had simply re-printed the points for everything to avoid having to keep cross referencing to find what anything costs, at least stuff from CA2017 seems to be here as well even if its not changed from CA2017

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:

That's just a silly outlook. At what point since the launch of 8th were GK nerfed?

First when razobacks and stormravens got priced hiked, because Gulliman they couldn't take and re-rolls they didn't have access to. Then before the edition started GW thought they smite was too strong, so they gave them baby smite, but forgot to do the same to other armies, so other armies were spaming smite just fine.
then there was the teleportation nerf, and the rule of 3 nerf that killed those armies that run 4-5 units of interceptors. Also each time other armies get new stuff and/or get fixs, but GK get nothing, this counts as a nerf, because everyone is moving forward and the GK are moving back.

Those things applied to everyone. There was no singling out of GK. Rites of Banishment was in the index.

I'm saying they could drop the cost of your current stratagems.

So to run those, Gk players would have to run other armies to get the CP. Why play GK then. Just take DW with plasma vets, some IG, much better army and unlike GK, the player doesn't have to worry that their army will suddenly get phased out, because of the "no GK primaris" thing. Also they could have done the right thing when there was a codex coming out, the FAQ, the CA, the other FAQ, why should they change the GK stratagems now ? they didn't even bother to give them formations or rules for vigilus. And it is hard to imagine a force of anti chaos anti demon dudes doesn't fight chaos and demons.

If they dropped their cost you wouldn't need allies as much...LOTS of people don't have a formation yet.

Stop with the persecution complex.

Literally the only way I can math out how to play grey knights right now is yo play guard, but bring 2 grand masters and draigo. Make them the warlord for rerolling charges. Give the masters 3++s.

Deathwatch got a big boost here. They can spam 3++ invuln veterans with SIA storm bolters for 20ppm and deepstrike them if they so wish. They are still going to be fairly vulnerable to mass ap- shots, but for 2 points a stormshield is too good to not take. I can see DW veterans having a very good niche as a chaff eater and even against tougher targets (up to t7) they spit out so many shots at atleast ap-1 that they will get some wounds through and have easy access to re-roll 1s to wound and a +1 to wound stratagem.

Gryphonne wrote:
Scrivener and Plague Drones getting nerfed is just such a fething fail for nurgle daemons. How is the scrivener even worth almost 100pts.

nothing change for standard tourney demons army also with scrivener up in points, unless you play lot of plague drones too.
Anyway... we have points but where are all those juicy rules change like for example that -1 to hit became +1 cover?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.

I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.

There are so many versions of CA flying around, they really put out a lot of honeypot versions this time.

So is this the real deal? Someone at GW really though Russ commanders needed to drop 25 points? But predators are fine?

Predator weapons dropped. Quad-Las is a 20 point decrease.

Did the standard lascannon drop? I don't see that. Twin las did drop. But The autocannon is still a better choice.

Oh, you're right. I saw the Twin Las and figured the regular one dropped too. How strange.

That really boggles my mind, actually. Considering the Plasma Cannon dropped by 5.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Some decent changes for Thousand Sons. Lots of rumors were total bs as usual.

I am sort of beside myself, however, that Cultists are 5, but IS and mortars are not even touched.

There are so many versions of CA flying around, they really put out a lot of honeypot versions this time.

So is this the real deal? Someone at GW really though Russ commanders needed to drop 25 points? But predators are fine?

Predator weapons dropped. Quad-Las is a 20 point decrease.

Did the standard lascannon drop? I don't see that. Twin las did drop. But The autocannon is still a better choice.

Oh, you're right. I saw the Twin Las and figured the regular one dropped too. How strange.

That really boggles my mind, actually. Considering the Plasma Cannon dropped by 5.

Yeah it makes no sense. Dev cents down 45 points but still unplayable with LC build because they pay 50 points for 2 LC when a twin las is 40. 100 points for 2 LC and huri bolter on Dev cents. 120 for Twin las and missle dread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Deathwatch got a big boost here. They can spam 3++ invuln veterans with SIA storm bolters for 20ppm and deepstrike them if they so wish. They are still going to be fairly vulnerable to mass ap- shots, but for 2 points a stormshield is too good to not take. I can see DW veterans having a very good niche as a chaff eater and even against tougher targets (up to t7) they spit out so many shots at atleast ap-1 that they will get some wounds through and have easy access to re-roll 1s to wound and a +1 to wound stratagem.

DW was already top notch - they didn't need any buffs. Do the math - SIA is better than being buffed by Gman in most cases. Keep in mind - Gman is 400 points. 3++ spam puts them over the top.

I will not fully believe these leaks until I have my printed copy and I've seen any related FAQ material.

Ven dreads with 2 LC and missile are now at efficiency levels though.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ven dreads with 2 LC and missile are now at efficiency levels though.

145 points for that and a high chance of having re-rolls is alright I suppose. I wonder how it compares to a demolisher tank commander. Tanky boy got a 40 point drop I believe which is BEEFY.