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 Desubot wrote:

Marin wrote:
I`m really surprised by the amount of negativity in this forum

Anyway. Honestly outside of GK still "sucking" and IG not being brought up to cultist complaints how is everything else?

HaHa Epic have an internet cookie.

I think alot of the good has been lost under the mountains of salt from the WTF GW headlines.
I love that my sister of silence got cheaper more chance to mess with those pesky psycher players.

If I lost to another guy obviously his army is OP, if I beat another guy, obviously his army is OP but he’s bad.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
"expecting Guilty to be as balanced as 40k is unrealistic", as 40k is a far less complex game with much less hurdles towards balance

That seems unlikely. The rules for 40K are pretty simple, but the army-wide interactions can be very complex. Imo you're selling 40K a little short here.

40k has the illusion of being extremely complex but in reality, all that complexity is contained in what is essentially minutiae that should be of little or no consequence. That's a big part of the issue. The supposed "complexity" of 40k is in all the wrong places, seemingly by design. It only looks incredibly complex on the surface.

Wayniac wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
"expecting Guilty to be as balanced as 40k is unrealistic", as 40k is a far less complex game with much less hurdles towards balance

That seems unlikely. The rules for 40K are pretty simple, but the army-wide interactions can be very complex. Imo you're selling 40K a little short here.

40k has the illusion of being extremely complex but in reality, all that complexity is contained in what is essentially minutiae that should be of little or no consequence. That's a big part of the issue. The supposed "complexity" of 40k is in all the wrong places, seemingly by design. It only looks incredibly complex on the surface.

Terrain? Mission Parameters? Assault phase trickery? High model diversity with the challenge of TAC?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
"expecting Guilty to be as balanced as 40k is unrealistic", as 40k is a far less complex game with much less hurdles towards balance

That seems unlikely. The rules for 40K are pretty simple, but the army-wide interactions can be very complex. Imo you're selling 40K a little short here.

40k has the illusion of being extremely complex but in reality, all that complexity is contained in what is essentially minutiae that should be of little or no consequence. That's a big part of the issue. The supposed "complexity" of 40k is in all the wrong places, seemingly by design. It only looks incredibly complex on the surface.

Terrain? Mission Parameters? Assault phase trickery? High model diversity with the challenge of TAC?

Eh all the Assault Phase tricks are pretty much easily avoided. I'd agree with missions if there were several more varieties.

Is anyone else surprised Guillermo didn't go up or gets a datasheet update?

Also, my favorite points change is the Kytan Ravager going down 104 points. That change literally swung me on what list I'm playing for an upcoming event.

Why would Guilliman go up again? Should come back down now that other books are out.

Spoletta wrote:
Boyz are not paying one point for DDD.

Boyz were nerfed, plain and simple.

They were a top competitive choice (no, not only for slow play) BEFORE traits and stratagems, so GW decided to play it safe and apply a nerf to boyz with the codex, otherwise they would have created a monstruosity. I though we were supposed to be interested in a balanced game.

Ork boyz were competitive when spammed to eternity because almost nothing else was remotely competitive. Tankbustas in an over priced Trukk? Lootas standing in the open to die turn 1?

In the index orkz had 2 workhorses and a couple of buffing characters, Boyz and KMK Mek gunz. The Nerf was not needed and took a staple unit of the ork army and made it almost as bad as Space Marine Tacticals....and last time I checked, people keep telling me how tacticals need a buff or a points decrease.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Technically what happened is GW forced you into buying that one grenade or bomb or whatever that was 10 points but suddenly free.

Pretty much this, and god I wish I could opt not to take the stupid thing and save myself the 10pts per 10 boyz. 1 Tankbusta bomb per 10 does about nothing. 6 inch range, D3 shots on a BS5 model. So if you take 3 on a 30 mob you get 6 shots and 2 hits on average....but only if you are within 6' of your target....which happens how often in competitive games? Ohh yeah, basically never.

 Marmatag wrote:

This is an extremely narrow view.

They were anything but nerfed. Things like Green Tide exist, as well as clan bonuses or whatever.

Stop acting like a 1 point increase is a nerf when it is part of a huge set of changes.

"Each Ork Boy now carries a lascannon that hits automatically. But, their points are going up by 1 per model." NERF NERF NERF OMG NERF NERF NEF

Narrow? only in the fact that he thinks it was a needed nerf when it wasn't. Green tide exists? Really? Well lets take a look at the tournament scene....and nope, not there. Green tide in the index was caused directly by the fact that nothing was competitive beyond KMKs and boyz. So you take 18 KMKs and you still have 2/3rds of your list to build, should you take sup optimal units that don't work very well, or take a mob of Boyz who are both tough, cheap and extremely choppy, but utterly useless at ranged combat and horribly vulnerable to HRoF weapons. The index "Green Tide" was 210+ boyz models, the codex comes out and i haven't seen a competitive list built with more than 90 or so.

1pt is 16.6% price increase, that is a considerable hike in price and the "huge set of changes" is we finally got kultures...you know, literally what every other faction got? Funny though, I didn't see gaunts, Guardsmen, Tacticals, Scouts, rangers, avengers, Firewarriors, etc etc going up in price, why did orkz have to go up in price? And realistically, as I have shown a few times, kultures basically kept boyz about where they were at 6ppm but in only 1 aspect. Literally boyz are worse than they were and that is self evident to anyone who plays orkz, if they were as good as before people would be taking 150+ just like they were except now they would add in some more flavor with other things like wagonz or Kommandos.

As for the auto hitting lascannon.....what? So boyz getting kulture is equivalent to a S9 auto hitting ranged 48 weapon?.....almost like you don't know what you are talking about and are relying exclusively on the hopes that nobody else does either.

It is definitely still too soon to see where the Ork codex is going to fall on the Codex spectrum, pre-CA i would say it was High end of the middle of the pack, now its definitely dropped a few places, at least in my opinion....give it a few months for the tourney results to come in and lets see. But if I had to guess, I am going to say the only competitive ork lists will be Evil Sunz deep striking with either lots of Smasha gunz in backup or a Bad Moonz Loota Bomb.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
"expecting Guilty to be as balanced as 40k is unrealistic", as 40k is a far less complex game with much less hurdles towards balance

That seems unlikely. The rules for 40K are pretty simple, but the army-wide interactions can be very complex. Imo you're selling 40K a little short here.

I can understand how you might think that's what I meant, but what I'm saying isn't exclusive with that - I'm not saying 40k isn't complex, or is simple. I'm saying the other one is even more complex. As someone else familiar with fighters already agreed, every single frame is important - taking 2 frames of a single move can completely change an entire character. Being that Guilty is possibly the most or second most complex fighter on the market with up to 50+ buttons per character and tons of crazy, crazy things each character can do, this shouldn't be too hard to imagine why the complexity is so deep and people are still finding strong, crazy new set-ups and tech every couple of days for every character. Guilty is a game where you can't learn everything for your character it's so deep, you can always keep adding to your arsenal. Like when Daemon players took like 2 months to find the 2++ re-rollable Screamer Star combo back in 6th (that would probably be found a lot faster in today's climate as well), imagine a game so deep that there is stuff like that being found for every race, every week, years and years after release. On top of all the complexities to the characters, the game wide mechanics are complex. Something as small as the way you can block something can completely change it's properties, then you have like 5 different ways you can block something and 3 different defensive options on top of that while blocking, which means you need to build your offensive tech to directly counter these options, etc. As someone with knowledge of them both, take my word for it that there's more complexity than 40k. It's not a diss.

I agree with Shuppet, even basic things like attack priority in Guilt Gear is on a different level of complexity than 40k. At the same time Guilty Gear is also much more fast paced to a degree that I think comparing the two is a stretch. If 40k were honestly like anything I would call it For Honor with the latest fighters being stronger with every iteration along with coming with a new gimmick.

 Quickjager wrote:
I agree with Shuppet, even basic things like attack priority in Guilt Gear is on a different level of complexity than 40k. At the same time Guilty Gear is also much more fast paced to a degree that I think comparing the two is a stretch. If 40k were honestly like anything I would call it For Honor with the latest fighters being stronger with every iteration along with coming with a new gimmick.

You're right that you couldn't compare the two gameplay wise or that the skills to play the two are very different. It was really just given as an example of a complex, 1v1 game that managed to get very good balance (not perfect though) with 15+ factors as the other guy asked. The point is mostly that there is no inherent roadblock with number of factors, or complexity, that will make achieving smooth balance impossible for 40k.

That being said, I just want to be clear that I'm not complaining about 8th. I think GW is making all the right steps, and while some races have gotten the shaft, it's clear they are trying, and that's an important part towards achieving.

@ SHUPPET: Sadly I don't have time atm to properly respond to the above, but in the meantime: A: Ok, thanks for the response, that's nicely layed out. B: I'd say that we're potentially looking at different types of complexity. I'll say one is more technical/explicit, and one is more . . . Abstract? Deep vs. Broad? And the differences have effects on what is realistically achievable balance.

Something like that. Maybe I can do a better job with this tomorrow.

 Insectum7 wrote:
@ SHUPPET: Sadly I don't have time atm to properly respond to the above, but in the meantime: A: Ok, thanks for the response, that's nicely layed out. B: I'd say that we're potentially looking at different types of complexity. I'll say one is more technical/explicit, and one is more . . . Abstract? Deep vs. Broad? And the differences have effects on what is realistically achievable balance.

Something like that. Maybe I can do a better job with this tomorrow.

Which is which? And no worries. I don't quite get what you mean, but I'll still be checking the thread tomorrow.

Im so glad i skipped the past 4 or so pages, what a worthless argument.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Im so glad i skipped the past 4 or so pages, what a worthless argument.

how do you know it was worthless if you skipped it? if you have nothing to contribute perhaps you should just keep it closed.

Im also glad i have him ignore, no idea what he is saying, but dont dare.

Can we talk about CA point changes and not what game is harder to balance please?

You blatantly don't, how do you know I'd even posted if you have me on ignore? my posts wouldn't even show up.

You made a big show and tell about blocking me a couple of days ago because I didn't bow down when you came into a thread trying to lord over me, yet here you are a couple of days after, with literally nothing to contribute but again antagonising because I don't share your opinion. Your obsession is really weird and I'm not the only one to notice it.

Just to hummor you, it says you are being ignore and your post is hidden i can unhide it at will for each post.

So you clearly dont understand and thats why i ignore you.

Today is the 1st post i physical read for you, other posts were from other people arguing with you.

So you coincidentally read that one single post, just by chance. Sure.

I'm unsure the reason why you'd block someone just to still come into a thread and direct your attitude at them regardless, but I guess thats something you have to ask yourself.

Guys. Please. Stay on topic?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Guilliman go up again? Should come back down now that other books are out.

Only if he gets 10+ W.

Or maybe if he can't resurrect and gives up his insane re-roll everything aura.

At the moment he's still a must in ultramarine forces, he's not overpriced at all.

 Blackie wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Guilliman go up again? Should come back down now that other books are out.

Only if he gets 10+ W.

Or maybe if he can't resurrect and gives up his insane re-roll everything aura.

At the moment he's still a must in ultramarine forces, he's not overpriced at all.

Guilliman is priced roughly right between 380pts and 400pts if the marines and/or their battle tanks is not so overcosted and fragile under the fire of disintegrator cannons and bright / dark lances and smites or other psychic power / trait / stratagem either directly causing MW or stack minus to hit that reduce the accuraccy of their precious number of shots down to Ork level.

Guilliman is not a combat monster like Magnus or Mortarion. He has no psychic ability and very vunerable to psychic power attacks, be it smite, death hex or jinx / doom. He doesn't have the high strength or numbers of attacks of his turned daemonic brothers. His only shining point is the aura buff he can give to a "close to bottom tier" army, preventing them from fallen into trash tier.

And to be honest, the actual efficiency of his buff is actually questionable given how fragile the boys he is buffing are now in the current meta, I don't think the units he is buffing can fire for more than 2 turns, they will either be dead or be tied up by enemy supersonic assault units (given the situation now that many units like Kraken Genestealers, Ork Bikers especially Evil Sun ones, Harlequins, Daemon Princes with Warp Time, all can pose a 24+" charge threat). Another factor casting doubt on his buff capability is the stacked minus to hit. Tbh, when facing -2 to hit, even his "insane buff" of rerolls would be largely reduced to pity buff.

I honestly think the 2pts SS in CA is god send to marines, I can foresee a new "Guilliman castle", that is 3 squads of 4 man Ultramarine Company Veteran on Bikes with SS and either plasma gun / melta or simply Stormbolter, surrounding Guilliman and the relic banner. This might give SM a breath, but to state BigG should worth more than 400pts may not be a fair claim at the current time.

I wish GK would get stormshields back, someone told me that once they had access to them on all of their termintors, and now it is limited to index and Draigo only.

Some SS termintors and SS paladins would look great with halabards. Not sure about how good they would be game play wise.

Karol wrote:
I wish GK would get stormshields back, someone told me that once they had access to them on all of their termintors, and now it is limited to index and Draigo only.

Some SS termintors and SS paladins would look great with halabards. Not sure about how good they would be game play wise.

The usual problem 40k is plagued with "No models" also the huge number of marine Dexes means that stuff is spread our all over the place - both in terms of rules, flavour and resources (in game and out).

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why would Guilliman go up again? Should come back down now that other books are out.

Only if he gets 10+ W.

Or maybe if he can't resurrect and gives up his insane re-roll everything aura.

At the moment he's still a must in ultramarine forces, he's not overpriced at all.

Guilliman is priced roughly right between 380pts and 400pts if the marines and/or their battle tanks is not so overcosted and fragile under the fire of disintegrator cannons and bright / dark lances and smites or other psychic power / trait / stratagem either directly causing MW or stack minus to hit that reduce the accuraccy of their precious number of shots down to Ork level.

Guilliman is not a combat monster like Magnus or Mortarion. He has no psychic ability and very vunerable to psychic power attacks, be it smite, death hex or jinx / doom. He doesn't have the high strength or numbers of attacks of his turned daemonic brothers. His only shining point is the aura buff he can give to a "close to bottom tier" army, preventing them from fallen into trash tier.

And to be honest, the actual efficiency of his buff is actually questionable given how fragile the boys he is buffing are now in the current meta, I don't think the units he is buffing can fire for more than 2 turns, they will either be dead or be tied up by enemy supersonic assault units (given the situation now that many units like Kraken Genestealers, Ork Bikers especially Evil Sun ones, Harlequins, Daemon Princes with Warp Time, all can pose a 24+" charge threat). Another factor casting doubt on his buff capability is the stacked minus to hit. Tbh, when facing -2 to hit, even his "insane buff" of rerolls would be largely reduced to pity buff.

I honestly think the 2pts SS in CA is god send to marines, I can foresee a new "Guilliman castle", that is 3 squads of 4 man Ultramarine Company Veteran on Bikes with SS and either plasma gun / melta or simply Stormbolter, surrounding Guilliman and the relic banner. This might give SM a breath, but to state BigG should worth more than 400pts may not be a fair claim at the current time.

Yeah I said it's not overpriced, not that that he should cost more. But the poster I quoted hoped for a price decrease which isn't fair due to that ultramarines LoW's profile. He's very powerful and he can't get 1-shotted in turn 1 like other superheroes which have more wounds and are targetable. If he costs less he should give away some of his goodness or become a 10+ wounds model. I get that some people like their beloved superheroes to be invincibile dudes that do the heavy work alone but guilliman is already very powerful.

If the SM player faces those "scary" supersonic evil sunz bikers he should feel relieved, that's a unit that is clearly overcosted.

Wayniac wrote:
40k has the illusion of being extremely complex but in reality, all that complexity is contained in what is essentially minutiae that should be of little or no consequence. That's a big part of the issue. The supposed "complexity" of 40k is in all the wrong places, seemingly by design. It only looks incredibly complex on the surface.

Yep, by design. In effect GW has tried games with little to no chrome (Epic 3rd ed being the stand out example - too little chrome to number of units, same system liked for Battlefleet Gothic as far fewer units) and they don't do well. The age of players that is the main market like surface complexity and tactical simplicity. Check out renowned historical games - they are now mostly clear simple systems to give a credible historical result. The old simulation were a bit of a nightmare for many and 40k kinda has the surface complexity of one of them with a very very basic game underneath.

Another advantage is you spend more time when you aren't playing planning, reading and plotting. Again the other group of games has little beyond painting with most happening in game.

so what is the thought or consensus on point changes that were in 2017 CA but the unit is omitted from 2018 CA?

Does it stay at the 2017 CA point cost or does it revert to its origingal?

Example the 90 point Malanthrope was changed to 140 points. It is absent from 2018 CA.


To further clarify why this is being asked. Lets look at the Revenant 2017 CA is 2000 points. They decided it was needed to reprint it in 2018 CA at 2000 points.

So are some units reversing back....or is this just more errata? And how do you play it till there may be a FAQ update....perhaps months or more.???

 admironheart wrote:
so what is the thought or consensus on point changes that were in 2917 CA but the unit is omitted from 2018 CA?

Does it stay at the 2017 CA point cost or does it revert to its origingal?

Example the 90 point Malanthrope was changed to 140 points. It is absent from 2018 CA.


To further clarify why this is being asked. Lets look at the Revenant 2017 CA is 2000 points. They decided it was needed to reprint it in 2018 CA at 2000 points.

So are some units reversing back....or is this just more errata? And how do you play it till there may be a FAQ update....perhaps months or more.???

The 2017 points are now obsolete. You use the codex points unless they are in CA 2018. Of course, that doesn't rule out that the malanthrope could be an error, but until something else comes along they are codex points.

 admironheart wrote:
so what is the thought or consensus on point changes that were in 2017 CA but the unit is omitted from 2018 CA?

Does it stay at the 2017 CA point cost or does it revert to its origingal?

Example the 90 point Malanthrope was changed to 140 points. It is absent from 2018 CA.


To further clarify why this is being asked. Lets look at the Revenant 2017 CA is 2000 points. They decided it was needed to reprint it in 2018 CA at 2000 points.

So are some units reversing back....or is this just more errata? And how do you play it till there may be a FAQ update....perhaps months or more.???

The Malanthrope is still listed in CA2018 at 140pts, just like the other Tyranid FW units that retained the same point values.

 xttz wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
so what is the thought or consensus on point changes that were in 2017 CA but the unit is omitted from 2018 CA?

Does it stay at the 2017 CA point cost or does it revert to its origingal?

Example the 90 point Malanthrope was changed to 140 points. It is absent from 2018 CA.


To further clarify why this is being asked. Lets look at the Revenant 2017 CA is 2000 points. They decided it was needed to reprint it in 2018 CA at 2000 points.

So are some units reversing back....or is this just more errata? And how do you play it till there may be a FAQ update....perhaps months or more.???

The Malanthrope is still listed in CA2018 at 140pts, just like the other Tyranid FW units that retained the same point values.

oh thanks...I was going on heresay and only glanced at some of the CA images....my mistake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:
The 2017 points are now obsolete. You use the codex points unless they are in CA 2018..

I assume that only applies to points....So for 2017 CA or any in the future....strategems, possible beta rules, missions, etc can still be considered legal play unless superseded by newer rules.?