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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
Clearly 8th edition has been a success and they should move Horus Heresy to 8th edition rules too.

That's a borderline Superman leap right there. Look, I get some folk want to go back to being able to play 40K with Heresy army lists, but from what I've seen there a lot less crossover between the "8th is great" and "I play 30K" groups than the 30K-in-40K fans keep pretending, and Heresy is for 30K players first & foremost.

As to the topic - I'm surprised we managed to get a whole page without someone smugly declaring this as evidence that all criticism of GW is and ever was unfounded whinging -EDIT: Spoke too soon - so an improvement on the last time this came up. Good for them, hopefully it means they keep investing in SGs and making models I want to buy.

That said, the AP system from 40k would be amazing for 30k, as there's so many useless weapons because all the armies are Marines.

The AP system in 40k has made basic marines and terminators even more useless and uninteresting than they were in 7th edition. I would not want the 8th edition AP system to come to Heresy. I would rather they simply improve "useless" weapons to make them more viable (by points cost reductions or improving their rules).

 Overread wrote:
Honestly AoS needs a year like 40K just had to clean up. What's holding AoS back is confusion over armies. There are LOADS on show on the website and yet only a handful have a clear rules system for them. Some have rules in outdated grand alliance books or in the generals handbook or don't really have any army level rules.

I think once GW gets the armies sorted out and makes it a lot clearer how to get into AoS for all armies then they'll be in a much stronger position

Not sure if you've noticed, but they've consolidated quite a few categories. Skaven is now just one entry as Skaven instead of Clan Pestilens and others. Everchosen and Slaves to Darkness are now under one tab.

Perhaps it's just a website cleanup, but perhaps it is also a hint of things to come.

Yeah they did it on Sunday, the clean up has made the game look far easier to get into for new people. I don't think its saying a hint on what is to come, but more its just cleaned it up a bit on the rough side (I got the feeling that whoever did the cleaning up wasn't a gamer but just a website staffer)

I wouldn't read into the categories too much, but it does at least mean that new people are no longer picking through 1001 armies of which over half were one or two model "armies" with no clear rules anywhere to run as an army.

 Overread wrote:
Yeah they did it on Sunday, the clean up has made the game look far easier to get into for new people. I don't think its saying a hint on what is to come, but more its just cleaned it up a bit on the rough side (I got the feeling that whoever did the cleaning up wasn't a gamer but just a website staffer)

I wouldn't read into the categories too much, but it does at least mean that new people are no longer picking through 1001 armies of which over half were one or two model "armies" with no clear rules anywhere to run as an army.

Hopefully they are making space for new stuff as well !

 Red_Five wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
Clearly 8th edition has been a success and they should move Horus Heresy to 8th edition rules too.

That's a borderline Superman leap right there. Look, I get some folk want to go back to being able to play 40K with Heresy army lists, but from what I've seen there a lot less crossover between the "8th is great" and "I play 30K" groups than the 30K-in-40K fans keep pretending, and Heresy is for 30K players first & foremost.

As to the topic - I'm surprised we managed to get a whole page without someone smugly declaring this as evidence that all criticism of GW is and ever was unfounded whinging -EDIT: Spoke too soon - so an improvement on the last time this came up. Good for them, hopefully it means they keep investing in SGs and making models I want to buy.

That said, the AP system from 40k would be amazing for 30k, as there's so many useless weapons because all the armies are Marines.

The AP system in 40k has made basic marines and terminators even more useless and uninteresting than they were in 7th edition. I would not want the 8th edition AP system to come to Heresy. I would rather they simply improve "useless" weapons to make them more viable (by points cost reductions or improving their rules).

Marine offense is why those units are useless, not the defensive stats. In fact, 8th is the most durable Terminators have been, and you'd have to literally ignore math to not see that.

 Red_Five wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
Clearly 8th edition has been a success and they should move Horus Heresy to 8th edition rules too.

That's a borderline Superman leap right there. Look, I get some folk want to go back to being able to play 40K with Heresy army lists, but from what I've seen there a lot less crossover between the "8th is great" and "I play 30K" groups than the 30K-in-40K fans keep pretending, and Heresy is for 30K players first & foremost.

As to the topic - I'm surprised we managed to get a whole page without someone smugly declaring this as evidence that all criticism of GW is and ever was unfounded whinging -EDIT: Spoke too soon - so an improvement on the last time this came up. Good for them, hopefully it means they keep investing in SGs and making models I want to buy.

That said, the AP system from 40k would be amazing for 30k, as there's so many useless weapons because all the armies are Marines.

The AP system in 40k has made basic marines and terminators even more useless and uninteresting than they were in 7th edition. I would not want the 8th edition AP system to come to Heresy. I would rather they simply improve "useless" weapons to make them more viable (by points cost reductions or improving their rules).

I disagree with this, it used to be either you got a 3+ or you got nothing. Now, even getting hit with plasma, there is still a chance I can survive it. I would have stayed in HH if the system had migrated to 8th. But it didn't and neither did I.

I think the issue is that most infantry now gets a save, when it didn’t before.

And as your basic Bolter has no AP value, that’s just boosted their survivability, whilst Marines now lose out.

So it’s more a mix of Marine armour not being so reliable, and most others getting a significant boost.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think the issue is that most infantry now gets a save, when it didn’t before.

And as your basic Bolter has no AP value, that’s just boosted their survivability, whilst Marines now lose out.

So it’s more a mix of Marine armour not being so reliable, and most others getting a significant boost.

depends, doesn't the basic primaris bolter come with a -1?

I think so. But most Marine collections won’t be Primaris Heavy.

Give your standard Bolter AP-1, and that ups their offensive capabilities quite nicely.

A factor of GW's recent financial success will be the weaker pound sterling (£). This means all sales outside the UK return more pounds for the same non-UK price.

Add to that better community information and engagement, regular launches with continued support, the resurrection of old favourites (both games & characters) and a something-for-everyone approach and you have an offering with a much broader appeal.

Lately they have even been embracing the digital side of the hobby better, with a cohesive event theme across all the GW licensed video games.

It takes sustained effort and planning to do all this. It does seem like they are finally getting it.

My prediction is that Plastic Adepta Sororitas in 2019 will bring a lot of new customers into the fold. Females are under represented in GW games and the hobby as a whole. Never underestimate the draw of being able to have characters that represent your gender. This may not necessarily translate to a huge influx of a female players, but may well drive a new wave of female miniature collectors and painters.

If they can tie that in with a decent Adepta Sororitas focused video game they may attract young women, who have always had access to and are comfortable with video gaming.

Then, perhaps, us old farts can share our enthusiasm for the game with our wives, girlfriends, sisters, daughters and nieces.*

*instead of hiding the receipts

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kirby’s latter days have somewhat damaged his initial good.

Remember, he was the man behind boxed games, like Warhammer 4th and 2nd Edition 40k. In his day, he modernised the company, and allowed it to ultimately continue on to this very day.

Of course, he modernised then stagnated, which isn’t good or useful. But he wasn’t universally bad.

The trouble with the LOTR bubble was it burst far faster than anyone expected. Literally ‘here today, gone tomorrow’. Yet perhaps perversely, it lead to restructuring that was well underway by the time of the global financial crash.

And don’t forget, it was under his stewardship that the decision was made to expand via cash reserves, rather than borrowing. That meant their expansion was ultimately sustainable. Consider Woolworths in the U.K., and other high street giants that sunk around 2007/2008. All of them went under due to debt. When sales shrank, they couldn’t service the debt, and due to bank jitters, couldn’t refinance.

So whilst he was a right bellend in the last days, he wasn’t the universally toxic entity many seem to think.

LotR was a movie property - a lot of people were expecting it to burst when it did.

There was no reason to think that the game would continue to have that same level of popularity after the movies had been out on DVD for a few months.

Another way to think of it is that he didn't screw up too badly when times were good - but was completely unprepared when an obvious bubble burst.

When I read his infamous Pokemon quote, I just assumed that he was transferring his own experience with LotR to Pokemon - without doing the homework.

He focused on the one thing that could achieve an immediate measurable difference to the bottom line - cutting costs.

But then he had... a series of brain farts... in regards to why people buy the miniatures, and the value of the IP as being separate from the games.

And surrounded himself with an echo chamber that supported those brain farts.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* Agreed about the box games - they brought in a lot of new players.

LotR bubble did burst incredibly quickly. Remember, this was GW's first (and so far only) foray into a licensed game.

Everyone knew it wouldn't be sustained over a long period. But it seems the rapidity of the burst caught them with their pants down. Rather than a decline, it just became a dead stop.

Compare to say, Star Wars. That comes and goes, but even when it goes, it maintains a steady revenue stream of licensed product. One need only look at Hasbro's toy range post 2003 to see that.

Here, it's likely naivety over incompetence. It's certainly known that GW got their fingers burnt in that downturn, enough to make them reticent about further licensed games. The Hobbit? Well, that's a toughy. One on hand, renewed interest helps sell the existing models as well. And if they didn't pick up that license, they risk a competitor gaining market share. Now I don't think that game did as well as LotR, because frankly the movies were pretty bobbins. But even so, it's a risk whichever way you look at it.

Saddest thing is, LotR is a cracking game system, as was WotR. Both very satisfying. Easy to get to grips with, but difficult to properly master.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
Clearly 8th edition has been a success and they should move Horus Heresy to 8th edition rules too.

That's a borderline Superman leap right there. Look, I get some folk want to go back to being able to play 40K with Heresy army lists, but from what I've seen there a lot less crossover between the "8th is great" and "I play 30K" groups than the 30K-in-40K fans keep pretending, and Heresy is for 30K players first & foremost.

As to the topic - I'm surprised we managed to get a whole page without someone smugly declaring this as evidence that all criticism of GW is and ever was unfounded whinging -EDIT: Spoke too soon - so an improvement on the last time this came up. Good for them, hopefully it means they keep investing in SGs and making models I want to buy.

That said, the AP system from 40k would be amazing for 30k, as there's so many useless weapons because all the armies are Marines.

The AP system in 40k has made basic marines and terminators even more useless and uninteresting than they were in 7th edition. I would not want the 8th edition AP system to come to Heresy. I would rather they simply improve "useless" weapons to make them more viable (by points cost reductions or improving their rules).

Marine offense is why those units are useless, not the defensive stats. In fact, 8th is the most durable Terminators have been, and you'd have to literally ignore math to not see that.

Maybe they are but it does not feel that way when I am rolling 3+ and 4+ armor saves against weapons in other editions that I would have received my 2+ save against. The two wounds is definitely a huge improvement for Terminators but that (long time coming) change is independent of the AP change.

 Togusa wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Fajita Fan wrote:
Clearly 8th edition has been a success and they should move Horus Heresy to 8th edition rules too.

That's a borderline Superman leap right there. Look, I get some folk want to go back to being able to play 40K with Heresy army lists, but from what I've seen there a lot less crossover between the "8th is great" and "I play 30K" groups than the 30K-in-40K fans keep pretending, and Heresy is for 30K players first & foremost.

As to the topic - I'm surprised we managed to get a whole page without someone smugly declaring this as evidence that all criticism of GW is and ever was unfounded whinging -EDIT: Spoke too soon - so an improvement on the last time this came up. Good for them, hopefully it means they keep investing in SGs and making models I want to buy.

That said, the AP system from 40k would be amazing for 30k, as there's so many useless weapons because all the armies are Marines.

The AP system in 40k has made basic marines and terminators even more useless and uninteresting than they were in 7th edition. I would not want the 8th edition AP system to come to Heresy. I would rather they simply improve "useless" weapons to make them more viable (by points cost reductions or improving their rules).

I disagree with this, it used to be either you got a 3+ or you got nothing. Now, even getting hit with plasma, there is still a chance I can survive it. I would have stayed in HH if the system had migrated to 8th. But it didn't and neither did I.

You used to always get 3+ save unless the weapon was specifically designed to take out Marines/Terminators/Tanks. Now, marines are nickle and dimed by weaker weapons. Sure you get a 5+ or a 6+ save against plasma or melta but so many other weapons are now dropping you down to 4+ or a 5+. You lose out on a lot of durability to small arms fire and gain some marginal survivability against good guns. There are pros and cons, for sure. I just prefer to see my Marines to be able to shrug off more damage than they do now.

I am not saying I would not play 8th Edition Heresy but I do not think it would be as good as a real re-write/re-think of 7th (although I would rather go back to 5th as a base template and rework from there rather than starting with 7th).

 Red_Five wrote:


You used to always get 3+ save unless the weapon was specifically designed to take out Marines/Terminators/Tanks. Now, marines are nickle and dimed by weaker weapons. Sure you get a save against a 5+ or a 6+ save against plasma or melta but so many other weapons are now dropping you down to 4+ or a 5+. You lose out on a lot of durability to small arms fire and gain some marginal survivability against good guns.

I am not saying I would not play 8th Edition Heresy but I do not think it would be as good as a real re-write/re-think of 7th (although I would rather go back to 5th as a base template and rework from there rather than starting with 7th).

This was probably the most confusing thing when I started 8th edition. Heavy Bolters are actually quite good against Marines and Terminators now... knocking a 3+ to a 4+ or a 2+ to a 3+ is huge. Battle Cannons on my Leman Russes are great at killing terminators now, while before terminators would shrug off battlecannons like nothing. Elite infantry is not in a very good place it looks like.

Heavy Bolters are mathematically the same vs Terminators. In fact, all the AP-1 weapons are unless they inflict more damage. Otherwise, they gained significant durability vs most weapons compared to the vastly few weapons that gained effectiveness. Who cares that they're weaker to Autocannons when they doubled durability vs the small arms YOU all complained about.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
LotR bubble did burst incredibly quickly. Remember, this was GW's first (and so far only) foray into a licensed game.

Everyone knew it wouldn't be sustained over a long period. But it seems the rapidity of the burst caught them with their pants down. Rather than a decline, it just became a dead stop.

Compare to say, Star Wars. That comes and goes, but even when it goes, it maintains a steady revenue stream of licensed product. One need only look at Hasbro's toy range post 2003 to see that.

Here, it's likely naivety over incompetence. It's certainly known that GW got their fingers burnt in that downturn, enough to make them reticent about further licensed games. The Hobbit? Well, that's a toughy. One on hand, renewed interest helps sell the existing models as well. And if they didn't pick up that license, they risk a competitor gaining market share. Now I don't think that game did as well as LotR, because frankly the movies were pretty bobbins. But even so, it's a risk whichever way you look at it.

Saddest thing is, LotR is a cracking game system, as was WotR. Both very satisfying. Easy to get to grips with, but difficult to properly master.

As someone who worked for GW at the time, I can shed a bit of light on this.

When the films were released the boxsets were flying off the shelves as quickly as they could come in on delivery.

There was a 'blip' and surge of sales again, obviously not as large, when the DVDs were released.

It was a sudden drop, and I don't think this was really a surprise to anyone. I say this, but...

What I can say (as someone who was a just a shop clerk) was that the local sales staff, and regional management, seemed to be completely belligerent about it. I would say actually nasty about it at times, and made for a really horrible atmosphere when it came to calling through crappy sales figures for that rainy mid-month, Tuesday afternoon when you'd sold one box of Easterlings and a pack of super glue.

I don't know what it was like in other regions but for me there just seemed to be an absolutely stubborn obstinacy about the sales dropping, and almost like there was no account made for them plummeting in the way that they did. Reading the sales figures reports at the time, although it was some time ago now, it seemed to me like the one that Blockbuster released in the months leading to them going bankrupt, and blaming poor rental figures on the good weather during the summer, and completely ignoring the onset of the internet. In this case with GW, it seemed like they just had no concept of the dip that was obviously going to occur.

So for me it's not that sales dropped, but it was how the company reacted, and for the start of the slow and stubborn downhill trajectory that it set out on, arguably only reversed in the past couple of years. Of not listening to the fans, the perennial price increases, the lack of social media and frenzied pursuit of small-time garage casters, White Dwarf no longer printing text-based articles and the general acceptance of circling in ever-smaller circles.
That for me seems to be the big change in mindset - engaging with the fans, treat with a modicum of respect (or at least look like you aren't ignoring them), engaging with social media and new games technology and distribute those great licenses. Most importantly, start making new and fun games and put the 'Games' back into the Workshop.

It's no surprise to me, that they've started doing these things again, and the financial success has followed.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Here, it's likely naivety over incompetence.

At board level, these are synonyms.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Here, it's likely naivety over incompetence.

At board level, these are synonyms.

Plus - it was willful ignorance. Not mere naivety.

Stores started getting rid of the product long before GW gave up on plugging it.

People tried to tell GW that it was a bubble.

Kirby did not listen.

Also - this was not their first licensed product, just the first in a very long time.

GW once held the licenses to both Doctor Who and Judge Dredd. As well as, oh, yeah, Middle Earth Role Play miniatures, in a second hand sort of license. (Loved the old Balrog for that line.)

The Auld Grump

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Heavy Bolters are mathematically the same vs Terminators. In fact, all the AP-1 weapons are unless they inflict more damage. Otherwise, they gained significant durability vs most weapons compared to the vastly few weapons that gained effectiveness. Who cares that they're weaker to Autocannons when they doubled durability vs the small arms YOU all complained about.

None of which is remotely anything to do with the topic of this thread.

Take the AP discussion to a more relevant place, please.