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PuppetSoul wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
I'd have to say the transport would have to be the target since it's the only thing on the table, and it can't be because you'd need three models with each of the three weapons,

*jazz music stops*

Read the stratagem again. You do not have to meet the requirements to get the +1 in order to use the stratagem, the only requirement you have to meet is shooting with a SoB unit. Second, the stratagem does not grant a modifier: it grants an If-check that has requirements that you have to meet to get +1 to wound until end of phase.

What do you have to meet in order to get +1 to wound? You have to meet a Restriction. Why can't you shoot in melee anymore? Because restrictions affecting the Repressor are now passed to the individual models, not the units, you are choosing to shoot with from inside.

The wording of that obviously creates a lot of interesting interactions, more than just making a loophole for hitting the Repressor with stratagems and applying them to the unit inside, and almost all of those interactions are strictly disadvantageous: the worst one that I can think of off the top of my head is that if the Repressor has a degraded profile, the girls inside suffer the modified ballistic skill. That's something you know now, enjoy.

Let's walk through it.
We're using a repressor with a squad of Doms in it. We'll assume the doms have a melta, flamer, and bolter.
Holy trinity has 2 parts to it.
1 - Need a Sisters unit that's about to fire.
2 - For the unit targeted by the strat, if its shooting target is within range of the strat target unit's 3 models with 3 weapons, it gains a +1 modifier to wound.

So, we target the repressor. It's about to shoot. Check. It's target is within range of the repressor's flamer. Check. 2 more to go. Is a second model in the repressor's unit--NOPE. only 1 model. Strat does not grant the +1 modifier.

Now, this is the part where you're saying you then get to use the strat again on the unit inside? I don't understand why you think that?
You can't target the unit with strats directly, and no where in this strat does it say it affects the unit inside. The unit is only affected by modifiers or restrictions on the repressor. This is not a restriction. The modifer from the strat would pass if the repressor had it, but it does not because it didn't satisfy the 2nd part of the strat.

So we have a repressor, with an active strat on it, that does not gain the modifier from the strat because it doesn't have 3 models.

I don't know what the melee restrictions have to do with anything. If the repressor's in melee and can't shoot that has no bearing on the fact that the repressor is a 1 model unit and can never gain the +1 modifier to pass.

Just read the FAQ.

Whether you can use Holy trinity or not on the unit in the repressor is irrelevant because the repressor is doggak now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kapitan Montag wrote:
Yup, bit of a nerf to our glorious repressors. But fair I think, I always felt a bit gamey when I fell back with my repressors and then shot with the people inside.

It's actively worse than an immolator now. One cultists touches your dozer blade and the entire unit can't shoot anymore. At least with immolators you can still disembark and shoot.

(This is open to some ambiguity as the rule is unclear, but it certainly seems a logical interpretation based on GW's wording.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MacPhail wrote:

 pretre wrote:
You say nerf, I say:

Page 54 – Sororitas Repressor
Change the Firing Ports ability to read:
‘Up to 6 models embarked on this model can attack in
their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line
of sight from any point on this model. When they do so,
any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model
also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers
cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same
turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is
within 1” of an enemy unit, and so on.’

+1 to BS (from a splashed AOF) is a modifier. right?

Three transports full of melta hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s is no joke... one heck of an alpha strike if it all comes together. That said I might still like them disembarked for the sake of stratagems.

Except you have to be within 6" of character and 12" of enough enemy units for that much melta to be useful, you need to roll a 4+ and you need to spend 3CP and you probably need to forgo hitting anything else.

It's neat idea but wildly impractical. Even with being affected by buffing abilities, I stand by the immolator being the superior transport now.

Also PuppetSoul, the degrading profile isn't a modifier. It's changing the models ballistic skill and as such has no affect on the girls inside. That's why it says BS 4+ instead of -1 to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lanlaorn wrote:
You can always just disembark from the vehicle if you want to shoot despite it falling back.

Because the squad inherets 'in combat' from the transport, theoretically it should also have to 'fall back' when the transport does. Or to get out of combat themselves.

It's ambiguous though, so in typical GW fashion, who the hell knows?

The biggest thing is, does it matter? I don't know about other areas, but I haven't seen someone bring a vehicle that Melta is good against to a Competitive game since the Castellan dropped, Storm bolter doms are cheap enough that they're probably safer on foot than they are in their coffin on wheels, and Immolators ability to fight independently of their unit seems more valuable than letting the one repressor that survives the first turn spray melta into whatever 4++ -2 to hit vehicle your opponent brought.

With this change, at least in my meta, the repressor as well as melta dominions are dead. They have no targets, no survivability, are extremely.expensive, and now can be totally shut down by any melee army.

I don't read it as the passengers are unable to disembark and shoot. It simply states that up to six embarked models may fire from inside, at that point they fire with the modifiers that apply to the Repressor. So though it took a nerf sure, I don't think it works differently than the Immolator or Rhino when it comes to being engaged in hth. Worth the points now? I dunno. Thankfully mine are a cupola swap from being a rhino or Immolator if they prove more of a reliability than before.

Melta Doms on the other hand, girls have been left all alone at the dance for a while now. I'm never upset that I bought 60 SB sisters at the start of 8ed.

ERJAK wrote:
Except you have to be within 6" of character and 12" of enough enemy units for that much melta to be useful, you need to roll a 4+ and you need to spend 3CP and you probably need to forgo hitting anything else.

Not a problem: the transport adds 5", Advance gives you 3", Hand gives you 3", the Book gives you an extra 3"... as for targets, one-shotting a knight or superheavy or splitting it between armor and multiwound or high T models is usually realistic in my meta.

Edit: to be clear, you're right that it's situational... I pile on like that maybe one game in three.

 deviantduck wrote:
Let's walk through it.
...

Now, this is the part where you're saying you then get to use the strat again on the unit inside? I don't understand why you think that?

No, the strat is still active on the Repressor, and the girls are testing against the restriction that strat applies to the Repressor.

"Modifier" is a defined term in the rules. "Restriction" is not, but they provide examples. Not being able to shoot in melee, and falling back, are the two explicit examples they provide. This is important, but I'll explain why at the end.

 deviantduck wrote:

This is not a restriction.

Citation needed.

 deviantduck wrote:

I don't know what the melee restrictions have to do with anything.

It's the most important part! So the argument someone would make is that Holy Trinity isn't a restriction, because it doesn't "restrict" you from doing anything, and they'd be wrong, because one of the two examples they explicitly state is not being able to shoot in melee (except with pistols). Shooting Phase restriction simply says that you can't shoot if there's a model within 1" of you, not that you can't shoot with anything except pistols. The Pistol rule is its own thing, but it's listed here as a Restriction. So they explicitly state that if the Repressor has a Pistol, that the Pistol rule would pass to the models selected to shoot from inside. Ergo, ANY effect that is on the Repressor passes to the girls inside once they are chosen to shoot: for example, if a girl inside dies to a reflect effect, she is reduced to zero wounds and rolls to explode.

It's pedantic, and fairly irrelevant given that the Repressor is unplayable, but one of the things I continuously take issue with GW for is their terrible rules writing and lack of putting concrete definitions of anything on paper.

Unplayable? Lol. I dont think so.

Indeed. That is ridiculous hyperbole. The Repressor is still great and if anything the FAQ has brought it into a more reasonable place with many ambiguities addressed.
So it can't fall back and have the unit inside still shoot. Disembark the unit then fall the repressor out, problem solved.
In combat, the embarked unit can still shoot pistols. How many other imperial vehicles allow these sort of hijinks?
"Unplayable". What nonsense. The Repressor is still going to see tables.
Someone's just butt hurt cuz they can't exploit an old ambiguous rule.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Indeed. That is ridiculous hyperbole. The Repressor is still great and if anything the FAQ has brought it into a more reasonable place with many ambiguities addressed.
So it can't fall back and have the unit inside still shoot. Disembark the unit then fall the repressor out, problem solved.
In combat, the embarked unit can still shoot pistols. How many other imperial vehicles allow these sort of hijinks?
"Unplayable". What nonsense. The Repressor is still going to see tables.
Someone's just butt hurt cuz they can't exploit an old ambiguous rule.

yeah. I don't play Repressors, nor any Forge World, ever...but I can clearly see the Repressor is very, very good.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Indeed. That is ridiculous hyperbole. The Repressor is still great and if anything the FAQ has brought it into a more reasonable place with many ambiguities addressed.
So it can't fall back and have the unit inside still shoot. Disembark the unit then fall the repressor out, problem solved.
In combat, the embarked unit can still shoot pistols. How many other imperial vehicles allow these sort of hijinks?
"Unplayable". What nonsense. The Repressor is still going to see tables.
Someone's just butt hurt cuz they can't exploit an old ambiguous rule.

All of the IG forgeworld transports have Firing Ports as well, but were unplayable because they're significantly overcosted for vehicles which don't have a 2+ or an invuln save.

Not even just not being able to fall back and shoot, it can't advance and shoot at full BS, it can't remain in combat and still shoot at other targets, etc..

It's a double-cost Index Trukk now... but with half the firing ports, lower max capacity, no Clan Kultur, more relevant degrading profile, doesn't get the benefit of KFF if the KFF holder is riding inside it, etc..


It's basically worse in every conceivable way except that it has a better BS for the maximum two stormbolters it can take, and that 3+ is superior to Ramshackle against generic bolter/lasgun fire (Ramshackle with 5++ is similar to 4++ against multiwound weapons: 2.03 vs 1.75 respectively against D6 weapons).


If you think that's playable, then I recommend you get checked out for battered-wife syndrome. The only reason you even consider it is because it's the only source of that effect that's available to the faction.

If Sisters had access to an actual Trukk, every Sisters list would be like:
Celestine
Indomitable/Brazier stick
Missionary
6x5 BSS squads with stormbolters in six Trukks
2x10 Seraphim
1x5 Doms with stormbolters in a Trukk
Dialogus
2x8 Arcoflags in two Trukks
3x Exorcists

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Indeed. That is ridiculous hyperbole. The Repressor is still great and if anything the FAQ has brought it into a more reasonable place with many ambiguities addressed.
So it can't fall back and have the unit inside still shoot. Disembark the unit then fall the repressor out, problem solved.
In combat, the embarked unit can still shoot pistols. How many other imperial vehicles allow these sort of hijinks?
"Unplayable". What nonsense. The Repressor is still going to see tables.
Someone's just butt hurt cuz they can't exploit an old ambiguous rule.

All of the IG forgeworld transports have Firing Ports as well, but were unplayable because they're significantly overcosted for vehicles which don't have a 2+ or an invuln save.

Not even just not being able to fall back and shoot, it can't advance and shoot at full BS, it can't remain in combat and still shoot at other targets, etc..

It's a double-cost Index Trukk now... but with half the firing ports, lower max capacity, no Clan Kultur, more relevant degrading profile, doesn't get the benefit of KFF if the KFF holder is riding inside it, etc..


It's basically worse in every conceivable way except that it has a better BS for the maximum two stormbolters it can take, and that 3+ is superior to Ramshackle against generic bolter/lasgun fire (Ramshackle with 5++ is similar to 4++ against multiwound weapons: 2.03 vs 1.75 respectively against D6 weapons).


If you think that's playable, then I recommend you get checked out for battered-wife syndrome. The only reason you even consider it is because it's the only source of that effect that's available to the faction.

If Sisters had access to an actual Trukk, every Sisters list would be like:
Celestine
Indomitable/Brazier stick
Missionary
6x5 BSS squads with stormbolters in six Trukks
2x10 Seraphim
1x5 Doms with stormbolters in a Trukk
Dialogus
2x8 Arcoflags in two Trukks
3x Exorcists

Wow. So that wasn't reasonable on any level.

 Jancoran wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Indeed. That is ridiculous hyperbole. The Repressor is still great and if anything the FAQ has brought it into a more reasonable place with many ambiguities addressed.
So it can't fall back and have the unit inside still shoot. Disembark the unit then fall the repressor out, problem solved.
In combat, the embarked unit can still shoot pistols. How many other imperial vehicles allow these sort of hijinks?
"Unplayable". What nonsense. The Repressor is still going to see tables.
Someone's just butt hurt cuz they can't exploit an old ambiguous rule.

All of the IG forgeworld transports have Firing Ports as well, but were unplayable because they're significantly overcosted for vehicles which don't have a 2+ or an invuln save.

Not even just not being able to fall back and shoot, it can't advance and shoot at full BS, it can't remain in combat and still shoot at other targets, etc..

It's a double-cost Index Trukk now... but with half the firing ports, lower max capacity, no Clan Kultur, more relevant degrading profile, doesn't get the benefit of KFF if the KFF holder is riding inside it, etc..


It's basically worse in every conceivable way except that it has a better BS for the maximum two stormbolters it can take, and that 3+ is superior to Ramshackle against generic bolter/lasgun fire (Ramshackle with 5++ is similar to 4++ against multiwound weapons: 2.03 vs 1.75 respectively against D6 weapons).


If you think that's playable, then I recommend you get checked out for battered-wife syndrome. The only reason you even consider it is because it's the only source of that effect that's available to the faction.

If Sisters had access to an actual Trukk, every Sisters list would be like:
Celestine
Indomitable/Brazier stick
Missionary
6x5 BSS squads with stormbolters in six Trukks
2x10 Seraphim
1x5 Doms with stormbolters in a Trukk
Dialogus
2x8 Arcoflags in two Trukks
3x Exorcists

Wow. So that wasn't reasonable on any level.

And that's from someone who boycotts forgeworld.

I fully disagree with Puppet. It went from broken to good. Trukks die to a stiff breeze. If you throw the ork KFF into the argument then have to also include our cannoness and celestine. Those two can boost all the 6++ to 4++ which is invaluable if you go second. Trukks pop like balloons. If you're comparing cost, I would be mad at the cost of the repressor if it was T6 with 10 wounds and didn't have it's own 6++.

12 wounds. Anywho, its fine. You are upset I guess or something but anyone with repressors will likely keep using them for the most part.

PuppetSoul wrote:




If you think that's playable, then I recommend you get checked out for battered-wife syndrome.

Alright! More casual sexism.

Please stop.

 Mmmpi wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:




If you think that's playable, then I recommend you get checked out for battered-wife syndrome.

Alright! More casual sexism.

Please stop.

It wasnt sexism. But thats beside the point

It also wasn't appropriate. Making light of domestic violence by equating it with your game of toy soldiers is not on. Please don't do that in future.

 insaniak wrote:
It also wasn't appropriate. Making light of domestic violence by equating it with your game of toy soldiers is not on. Please don't do that in future.

I didn't like his comment either but in the name of intellectual honesty, I'm just saying it wasn't sexism. That's all. He was being insulting however. But no biggee. Moving on to actual tactical stuff.

 insaniak wrote:
It also wasn't appropriate. Making light of domestic violence by equating it with your game of toy soldiers is not on. Please don't do that in future.

So if I'm describing someone as accepting abuse as normal due to twenty-years of being abused, I shouldn't use the legal and medical term for that conditioning... because its name references women?


I see this board is not for me. I'll see myself out.

Sister mini painted



plus:

You’ll be able to get this model for yourself in a special advance release ahead of the rest of the Sisters of Battle. Stay tuned for news on how you can get yours…

Now that's a nice looking model. Easy to start picturing my scheme...

I don't care for the base.

 deviantduck wrote:
I don't care for the base.

Well if worst came to worst, it can be removed. i like it. It's fancy. I suppose it's probably a showpiece more than anything.

ERJAK wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lanlaorn wrote:
You can always just disembark from the vehicle if you want to shoot despite it falling back.

Because the squad inherets 'in combat' from the transport, theoretically it should also have to 'fall back' when the transport does. Or to get out of combat themselves.

Once they are out of the transport they are no longer embarked, therefore that rule does not apply anymore

 Grundz wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lanlaorn wrote:
You can always just disembark from the vehicle if you want to shoot despite it falling back.

Because the squad inherets 'in combat' from the transport, theoretically it should also have to 'fall back' when the transport does. Or to get out of combat themselves.

Once they are out of the transport they are no longer embarked, therefore that rule does not apply anymore

One step further. You have to disembark before the transport moves. So, you disembark before the transport falls back from combat. It's empty when it gets the restriction.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Grundz wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lanlaorn wrote:
You can always just disembark from the vehicle if you want to shoot despite it falling back.

Because the squad inherets 'in combat' from the transport, theoretically it should also have to 'fall back' when the transport does. Or to get out of combat themselves.

Once they are out of the transport they are no longer embarked, therefore that rule does not apply anymore

One step further. You have to disembark before the transport moves. So, you disembark before the transport falls back from combat. It's empty when it gets the restriction.

One step further
It exploded the turn before because you let your repressor get charged for some reason like a mong

:p

Would a mix of immolators and repressors work, if one were trying to force-feed mech sisters to the beta book?

I've played my foot-horde sisters under the beta book and it's been adequate (in terms of winning) but ultimately quite boring.

"Everyone stand within 6" of the warlord and Celestine for the 4++, then walk forwards and machine-gun/flamer/melta everything until you need to stand on objectives."

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Would a mix of immolators and repressors work, if one were trying to force-feed mech sisters to the beta book?

I've played my foot-horde sisters under the beta book and it's been adequate (in terms of winning) but ultimately quite boring.

"Everyone stand within 6" of the warlord and Celestine for the 4++, then walk forwards and machine-gun/flamer/melta everything until you need to stand on objectives."

Generally the transports synergize best with themselves. The more immolators you have means you have more immolation flamers and target saturation. The more repressors you have the more firepower you can bring to bear safely. Having a couple repressors in an immolator heavy list is still good though, but taking immolators when you have mostly repressors is iffy.

That said, until knights are less common than they are now, vehicle heavy lists that don't have 'forgeworld contemptor spam' levels of firepower will mostly see their stuff die really fast without being able to do anything.

ERJAK wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


That said, until knights are less common than they are now, vehicle heavy lists that don't have 'forgeworld contemptor spam' levels of firepower will mostly see their stuff die really fast without being able to do anything.

I feel like the problem is mostly that you have 3 exorcists, everything else has to be really close to kill anything, seraphim squads are nice for clearing chaff but closing in with meltas is hard
Repressors are "better" if you are sticking a ton of shoots in them, if you aren't then its a question of if you want a heavy flamer or a bunch of stormbolters

Ive been toying with the idea of dipping into IG for more long range artillery, and cheaper, betterish, flamer tanks instead of flamer transports

 Grundz wrote:
Ive been toying with the idea of dipping into IG for more long range artillery, and cheaper, betterish, flamer tanks instead of flamer transports

Which works outside of ITC, but if you ally in IG, in ITC you'll lose out points for best faction SoB. You'll be lumped into Imperial Soup faction and good luck winning any fame that way.

(I know, this only applies if you play in ITC Tourneys and blah blah blah.)

 deviantduck wrote:

 Grundz wrote:
Ive been toying with the idea of dipping into IG for more long range artillery, and cheaper, betterish, flamer tanks instead of flamer transports

Which works outside of ITC, but if you ally in IG, in ITC you'll lose out points for best faction SoB. You'll be lumped into Imperial Soup faction and good luck winning any fame that way.

(I know, this only applies if you play in ITC Tourneys and blah blah blah.)

Or you dont care about best in faction and you rather just win the full tournament

 deviantduck wrote:

 Grundz wrote:
Ive been toying with the idea of dipping into IG for more long range artillery, and cheaper, betterish, flamer tanks instead of flamer transports

Which works outside of ITC, but if you ally in IG, in ITC you'll lose out points for best faction SoB. You'll be lumped into Imperial Soup faction and good luck winning any fame that way.

(I know, this only applies if you play in ITC Tourneys and blah blah blah.)

Oh no, what will I do if I don't score enough imaginary points at a tourney I have no chance at placing in?!?