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Its annoying but really theres only 2 main characters that I've found I really care about - Celestine and my WL canoness. With acts of faith to heal they generally can stay alive long enough to win me the game.

Rynner wrote:
Its annoying but really theres only 2 main characters that I've found I really care about - Celestine and my WL canoness. With acts of faith to heal they generally can stay alive long enough to win me the game.

Certain builds will kill them in one round now. The Snipers for SM are kinda insane for the price. I think triple Vindicare are still da best, which will definitely end any character you want dead.

I would never in a million years take Celestians really (except when they were in the white dwarf codex, because those were good) but now, 5 of them may not be a total waste of points.

Are we really saying that S3/T3 1W units that cost twice what guard cost are going to be awesome? They have all the weaknesses of Guard, with none of the strengths.

Arco Flaggelants:
T3 1W Melee units that won't make it into battle before getting mulched by massed bolter fire. My Custodians can't make it across the table, but these will. *Laughes in Invuln save*

Exocists: Hi, I'm a Rhino stat line with a very average gun. I will likely cost good enough to be spammed, but fall to the rule of three, and be deleted quickly.

Penitent Engines: T6 unit with 7W that murders in melee anything it touches, but again, likely won't make it there before getting deleted by bolterfire. 3 go into the charge, 1 survives.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but Sisters won't see a win at a major. They are gorgeous to have on the shelves. That is their selling point.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are we really saying that S3/T3 1W units that cost twice what guard cost are going to be awesome? They have all the weaknesses of Guard, with none of the strengths.

Arco Flaggelants:
T3 1W Melee units that won't make it into battle before getting mulched by massed bolter fire. My Custodians can't make it across the table, but these will. *Laughes in Invuln save*

Agreed, unless they're protected in a transport.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Exocists: Hi, I'm a Rhino stat line with a very average gun. I will likely cost good enough to be spammed, but fall to the rule of three, and be deleted quickly.

Exos are T8 with more wounds. T8 vs T7 is night and day, so this is... just wrong.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Penitent Engines: T6 unit with 7W that murders in melee anything it touches, but again, likely won't make it there before getting deleted by bolterfire. 3 go into the charge, 1 survives.

If they don't change between beta dex and final dex then correct.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I hate to be a buzzkill, but Sisters won't see a win at a major. They are gorgeous to have on the shelves. That is their selling point.

Flagents are 2w, with a 6++(sometimes) and a 5 +++. Not amazingly survivable but they don't just fall over if you look at them.

That being said Sisters have always done mech well. I think if the book keeps the 3++/4++, fixes the lackluster acts of faith, and just expands our stratagems Sisters could be very strong. Even though I just came back to playing them competitively I see the strength in the Beta Book that I missed or was too blinded/rushed at LVO last year to see.

In my opinion the book really doesn't have bad match ups. It doesn't have great ones but nothing I've played against (other than 9x Missile Sides) have felt like an auto loss.

The main weakness of Sisters are - Acts of Faith and Lack of Stratagems.

Yeah there are some minor things that could be improved on - Some of the Orders are really bad, some stuff just doesn't quite function right, and some stuff is too random or costs a little too much.

On a whole though the stuff that does work, works well.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are we really saying that S3/T3 1W units that cost twice what guard cost are going to be awesome? They have all the weaknesses of Guard, with none of the strengths.

Arco Flaggelants:
T3 1W Melee units that won't make it into battle before getting mulched by massed bolter fire.

Arco-Flagellents are epically good. The real question is, why are you aiming them at the wrong targets? Because I never find them to be anything but super stars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Exocists: Hi, I'm a Rhino stat line with a very average gun. I will likely cost good enough to be spammed, but fall to the rule of three, and be deleted quickly.

T8 and 12 wounds isnt a rhino stat line. The gun is unreliable but taken in 3's they can drop an Executioner in one round when buffed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

I hate to be a buzzkill, but Sisters won't see a win at a major. They are gorgeous to have on the shelves. That is their selling point.

Maybe they dont win a major but I did 12th place with them at a major. Pretty sweet. And I will go so far as to say that I missed 4th place by a hair. I don't know bout anyone else but losing to the number 1 astartes player and missing out on 4th because of it sounds like a damn fine showing.

I love Sisters of Battle. Have since I first saw them. KNEW I'd own them even though my favorite army and first love is T'au. Maybe we DO collect them because they look bad ass beyond belief. I can think of a lot worse reasons to play an army. Besides if you can do that well with them at a major, then maybe its not the army? Maybe there just isnt enough tactica and help available to really bring the Sisters players along. Sisters players are rare at most events. Just by sheer volume the winners of events are more likely to be other factions. Thats not really a knock on sisters per se.

Codex might be better. I hope so.

 Jancoran wrote:
Arco-Flagellents are epically good. The real question is, why are you aiming them at the wrong targets? Because I never find them to be anything but super stars.

I suppose it depends what you compare them to, and in more than a few cases whether your opponent has ever seen them before and takes them seriously. They exist at the same price point as axe-berzerkers and there are just so many D2 weapons popping up that don't have anything better to be shooting at in a sisters army.

A.T. wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Arco-Flagellents are epically good. The real question is, why are you aiming them at the wrong targets? Because I never find them to be anything but super stars.

I suppose it depends what you compare them to, and in more than a few cases whether your opponent has ever seen them before and takes them seriously. They exist at the same price point as axe-berzerkers and there are just so many D2 weapons popping up that don't have anything better to be shooting at in a sisters army.

The great majority of the codex suffers when your opponent has seen it before. If your opponent knows Sisters and knows what vehicle your arco's or Repentia are in, it will die long before your Exorcists do. Your squishy melee will die right after their ride. If they start on foot what do you tell your opponent about Arco's that gets them to not shoot them? Same goes for your 4++ bubble if your opponent can do math.

I get a lot of mileage out of opponents that know nothing about the Dex. Thats been Sisters since day one. Because nobody ever saw them. If you haven't been paying attention, plastic Sisters will be changing that.

Will the Beta feedback change that? I dunno. If we are stock with poxwalker Sisters I will melt the new plastics in front of my long faithful metal Sisters and shelve them until next try.

 dracpanzer wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Arco-Flagellents are epically good. The real question is, why are you aiming them at the wrong targets? Because I never find them to be anything but super stars.

I suppose it depends what you compare them to, and in more than a few cases whether your opponent has ever seen them before and takes them seriously. They exist at the same price point as axe-berzerkers and there are just so many D2 weapons popping up that don't have anything better to be shooting at in a sisters army.

The great majority of the codex suffers when your opponent has seen it before. If your opponent knows Sisters and knows what vehicle your arco's or Repentia are in, it will die long before your Exorcists do. Your squishy melee will die right after their ride. If they start on foot what do you tell your opponent about Arco's that gets them to not shoot them? Same goes for your 4++ bubble if your opponent can do math.

I get a lot of mileage out of opponents that know nothing about the Dex. Thats been Sisters since day one. Because nobody ever saw them. If you haven't been paying attention, plastic Sisters will be changing that.

Will the Beta feedback change that? I dunno. If we are stock with poxwalker Sisters I will melt the new plastics in front of my long faithful metal Sisters and shelve them until next try.

My opponents definitely know my army. Lol. It hasn't helped them much. Its not like i Kept changing it. Or that there were that many options to remember.

 Jancoran wrote:

My opponents definitely know my army. Lol. It hasn't helped them much. Its not like i Kept changing it. Or that there were that many options to remember.

So how is it that they refuse to shoot your arco's before they run in and act all "epicly good"? Don't know if you are still running your all foot+exo's list but I don't play against opponents that hear the words "dedicated assault unit" and don't think to kill it first. If such a unit is in a rhino, that rhino dies first. Then the nasties inside. Are your opponents STILL shooting your exo's first?

Its not that I expect an actual answer Janc, my apologies, it must be something I ate.

 Jancoran wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Arco-Flagellents are epically good. The real question is, why are you aiming them at the wrong targets? Because I never find them to be anything but super stars.

I suppose it depends what you compare them to, and in more than a few cases whether your opponent has ever seen them before and takes them seriously. They exist at the same price point as axe-berzerkers and there are just so many D2 weapons popping up that don't have anything better to be shooting at in a sisters army.

The great majority of the codex suffers when your opponent has seen it before. If your opponent knows Sisters and knows what vehicle your arco's or Repentia are in, it will die long before your Exorcists do. Your squishy melee will die right after their ride. If they start on foot what do you tell your opponent about Arco's that gets them to not shoot them? Same goes for your 4++ bubble if your opponent can do math.

I get a lot of mileage out of opponents that know nothing about the Dex. Thats been Sisters since day one. Because nobody ever saw them. If you haven't been paying attention, plastic Sisters will be changing that.

Will the Beta feedback change that? I dunno. If we are stock with poxwalker Sisters I will melt the new plastics in front of my long faithful metal Sisters and shelve them until next try.

My opponents definitely know my army. Lol. It hasn't helped them much. Its not like i Kept changing it. Or that there were that many options to remember.

You're playing people who either aren't paying attention or who are just bad. Probably bad considering 2 vindicares or 2 units of eliminators should completely dismantle footslog on tournament typical terrain tables.

Yeah, arcos are good and can do good things, but in a list like footslog, they shouldn't be hitting anything valuable as the rhino they're in is basically the only meaningful threat in the army until turn 3.

Getting to take advantage of ITC ruins rules helps, I played a daemon army recently that illustrated to me just how big of a deal that is, but a good player with a good list still shouldn't be letting the Arcos into their lines. The value you get, against a good opponent, should be in forcing them to be places they don't want to be to defend against them. Racking up big kill numbers means your opponent fethed up in their movement/target priority.

 dracpanzer wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

My opponents definitely know my army. Lol. It hasn't helped them much. Its not like i Kept changing it. Or that there were that many options to remember.

So how is it that they refuse to shoot your arco's before they run in and act all "epicly good"? Don't know if you are still running your all foot+exo's list but I don't play against opponents that hear the words "dedicated assault unit" and don't think to kill it first. If such a unit is in a rhino, that rhino dies first. Then the nasties inside. Are your opponents STILL shooting your exo's first?

Its not that I expect an actual answer Janc, my apologies, it must be something I ate.

Back to this behavior I see. More for other peoples edification than to answer you, I'll bite.

The Arco-Flagellents hide in terrain. This would have seemed obvious and hardly worth explaining to you. Terrain determines how you use them. So if you're a canny General...and I am... you decide that early and act accordingly.

Since you bring it up, as a matter of practicality, the Exorcists outrange MOST of the enemy. So no, they aren't fired upon first all the time or "often" but they do get the attention because with three of them you can kill an Executioner Tank in one round. This tends to concern people. However, there are about a hundred reason why the non-ranged unit in my army (Arco's) will get less attention than the 100 ranged ones. Like range for example; and like there's 100 of them for another example.

I don't think much more needs to be said, because there is no board here to reference. But the general plan is to go cover to cover with them ONLY if the enemy is never coming forward. But objectives force the issue eventually, don't they? Letting me control more every round seems like bad policy so...

And when the enemy does show up, they spring into action. They often don't do anything but hide for two rounds. the enemy dictates that. But hiding 6 of them takes almost no effort or imagination. They are faster than average which helps as well.

They die. That's okay. the enemy has Thunderfire cannons and all that fun stuff, so you can not avoid death on the battlefield forever. If the enemy is properly equipped, stuff is going to die. No one, not even you, can do everything about everything. =)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:


You're playing people who either aren't paying attention or who are just bad. Probably bad considering 2 vindicares or 2 units of eliminators should completely dismantle footslog on tournament typical terrain tables.

Well I'll play that game. Lol. There are 10,000 RANKED players in the ITC world rankings as of today.

I'll go through a few examples of my personal meta and you tell me how you feel about it, mkay? Only since you bring it up. Not because I wanted to have to go down this road...again.

These are all people who went to tournaments within 60 miles of me THIS YEAR. All of them. I'm not talking about places i had to travel far to play, or people I played a long time ago, or what have you. Recent attendees within an hour and most of them are regular attendees or even TO's in my area etc...

Jason Byrd 1st in the world as Nurgle, 27th as Orks and 209th overall
Paul Winters #1 player as Slaanesh, 273rd overall
Jim Vesel, #1 in the world as Chaos...and Thousand Sons. Also #1 in the world overall. Yup. that guy.
I'm number 2 in the world as Sisters of Battle. Would be number one at Sisters but the soup thing early on allowed my competitor to steal some points there. Legal but true. Going to LVO would probably push me over.
Jason Ryder is #3 in the world as Astartes, 116th in the world, and was number one Astartes when I played him at TSHFT (lost 36-30).
Michael Tempe #3 as Necrons in the world
Zackary Sanders #2 Grey KNight player in the world
Zachary Nelson, 51st in the world. he's played a ton of different armies to get there actually, but he's very good. Top 100. Nuff said.
Collin Sherman 91st in the world and rumor has it he paid for lessons from Nick nannavati or some such. Dunno if its true, but he's at events all the time so I could ask.
Sean Morgan 14th as Aeldari, 3rd as Imperial Agents, 146th overall
Ben Cromwell 170th
John Paul Mawet 208th
Chuck Arnett 264th

...out of 10K

Now these are just the names you might actually know. All top guys. I'm missing some but I'm too tired to keep looking this up anymore. We have some strong guys coming on as well like Michael Halverson, Nathan Billings, and others who have had some strong showings recently.

So please spare me with the quality of opponent garbage. I play in one of the toughest metas you will find anywhere. Tough sledding.

But.. do they know target priority?



Joking aside, assuming all index units stay in the codex and knowing what we know already. What would be the one thing you hope will get added as a new thing to the army? Either from a competitive or lore perspective.

I'd like ignore LOS fire and anyway to do mortal wounds.

Rynner wrote:
I'd like ignore LOS fire and anyway to do mortal wounds.

I was hoping for some sort of army wide gimmick with melta guns. Like all 6s to wound with a melta gun does a MW or something. A nice bonus that gives us more incentive to use the overpriced melta and show some sort of fluffy love for the premiere melta toters.

So not quite on topic, but i am curious from you more experienced sisters players, do you think the SoB start box is worth while to join in with? and what do you theorize the yet unannounced new models might be (about 70% down the page on this link, https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/11/sisters-of-battle-army-set-unboxinggw-homepage-post-1/)?

I don't personally think it's worth it for the models, most of us have all that stuff.

But most of us are die hard/long time Sisters players and any chance to get a new LE codex I think most of us are going to jump on.

$45 for a 10 man SM squad i'd say is most equvilant
$50 codex
$50 for 3 inceptors, say roughly equivilant for 5 seaphim
$45 for assault squad, so roughly the same for repentia
$35 for arco flaggelants, can't really justify more for 3 regular man sized models
$55 for 3 killa kans, so ~$18 for the penitent engine
$25 for special character that should be $10-15 but ce la vi
~$268 in stuff for $210, and some extra tiddlybits like "miracle dice (ooh wow GW 12 white 6 sided die... amazing) but the cards are useful

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/12/battle-sisters-on-the-battlefield-part-1gw-homepage-post-1/

Thoughts? I think it looks strong.

Rynner wrote:
Thoughts? I think it looks strong.

With what little we know so far, if you were to swap out betadex acts of faith for miracle dice and allies for sacred rites ... I can't see them getting any less pasted by nuMarine gunlines.
I guess one in three models will get to shoot back as they die though, albeit with the worst possible profile for exorcists.

With acts of faith gone the extra movement is out, double fight is out, autopass moral is gone, no regeneration, no vessels abuse.

Because a change of those to stratagems is impossible, right?

Weidekuh wrote:
Because a change of those to stratagems is impossible, right?

Those aren't stratagems, they were the old acts of faith.

Yes, I know. But since they aren't acts of faith anymore and sisters now have 36 stratagems, maybe this old stuff got moved there.

So now an Act of Faith means using an individual Miracle Dice to replace a single dice roll?

But only >certain< dice rolls... To Hit, To Wound, Saving Throw, Morale, and Deny the Witch. Possibly more.

The wording makes it seem like you expend the Miracle Dice instead of rolling. Might be more useful if a Miracle Dice is able to replace a whiffed roll. Wondering if there's a limit to the amount which can be used , like can I choose to have all of my attacks from one character hit?

Seems like the change is enough to keep non-Sisters players from whining about the 'un-Deny-able Psychic Powers', though.

A re-purposed Age of Sigmar rule, but Space Wolves didn't mind the Skaven spell 'Cracks' Call' when it got renamed for them a couple of editions ago.

We don't know if the old acts of faith are gone or if they are still exist in some form or fashion. It's too early to tell.

However the old acts of faith were unreliable at best. Other than losing auto pass moral I won't miss them.

Replacing a dice with a number you want is really strong.

Acts of Faith aren't gone. Miracles are in addition to them. If everything pans out the same, we have:

Sacred Rites (buff for monodex)

Order Convictions (Chapter tactics) (No word on these yet)

Acts of Faith (We only know of 1 DTW AoF)

Miracles (New. Free dice you can use that you know the value of)

 deviantduck wrote:
Acts of Faith aren't gone. Miracles are in addition to them. If everything pans out the same, we have:

Sacred Rites (buff for monodex)

Order Convictions (Chapter tactics) (No word on these yet)

Acts of Faith (We only know of 1 DTW AoF)

Miracles (New. Free dice you can use that you know the value of)

It appears from the wording of the article that miracles replace acts of faith (the title of the section and the wording within it)

my current assumption is

Rites
order convictions
Miracles
"acts of faith" being dialed back to "once per game" abilities on the individual units represented by cherubs, since we already know about ammo cherubs and that there are many different ones.

Note that being able to replace damage dice with 5's or 6's is absurdly strong with how many exorcist and melta shots we can put out

 deviantduck wrote:
Acts of Faith aren't gone. Miracles are in addition to them.

I'm pretty sure using the miracle dice is the act of faith.

 Grundz wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Acts of Faith aren't gone. Miracles are in addition to them. If everything pans out the same, we have:

Sacred Rites (buff for monodex)

Order Convictions (Chapter tactics) (No word on these yet)

Acts of Faith (We only know of 1 DTW AoF)

Miracles (New. Free dice you can use that you know the value of)

It appears from the wording of the article that miracles replace acts of faith (the title of the section and the wording within it)

my current assumption is

Rites
order convictions
Miracles
"acts of faith" being dialed back to "once per game" abilities on the individual units represented by cherubs, since we already know about ammo cherubs and that there are many different ones.

Note that being able to replace damage dice with 5's or 6's is absurdly strong with how many exorcist and melta shots we can put out

Only kind of for 3 reasons.

1. the dice are random, no guarantee you'll get 5s or 6s.

2. Exorcists and other vehicles may not be able to benefit.

3. You get a very small number of dice (as of now).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frowbakk wrote:
So now an Act of Faith means using an individual Miracle Dice to replace a single dice roll?

But only >certain< dice rolls... To Hit, To Wound, Saving Throw, Morale, and Deny the Witch. Possibly more.

The wording makes it seem like you expend the Miracle Dice instead of rolling. Might be more useful if a Miracle Dice is able to replace a whiffed roll. Wondering if there's a limit to the amount which can be used , like can I choose to have all of my attacks from one character hit?

Seems like the change is enough to keep non-Sisters players from whining about the 'un-Deny-able Psychic Powers', though.

A re-purposed Age of Sigmar rule, but Space Wolves didn't mind the Skaven spell 'Cracks' Call' when it got renamed for them a couple of editions ago.

The AoS rule was better. They get 9 dice to start the game and can still generate more, which is better than the getting 12-15 over 5 turns like we will now. They also get free summoning.

We'll need to generate at least 5 dice per turn consistently for it to be a significant enough advantage to overcome the loss of AoFs and make strides in closing the power gap between us and other codex armies.

The way things are presented I think that they could start with a few Miracle Dice already. That and/or some models generate them somehow. Like, what's a Simulacrum going to do now that there's not Tests of Faith?