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Danit wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm still really fuzzy on the MD situation. Hypothetical: the shooting phase. Unit A uses a MD on a reroll to hit for one of it's guns. At this point, no other until can use a MD this phase, correct?

A MD can't be used on a re-roll, as you must declare it before seeing the result of a roll (and a re-roll, obviously, has already had its result seen once). You must declare it before the roll is made.

Furthermore, yes, no further MD can be used that phase - unless you have a rule that says otherwise, like a 5pt Simulacrum in your squad as the most basic example.

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle.

It depends on your army, if you dont have the md generation to support it i wouldnt want to take a simulacrum on every squad. Foot sisters are better if you build your army that way, prob wouldn’t want your stuff on foot if your heavy melee.

Has anyone worked out max MD generation possible?

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle

Depending on the interpretation of MD, it would behove you to spread multimeltas out to many BSS squads for all the re-rolls (assuming they have a simulacrum). This emulates the retributor multi roll interpretation but without the retributor strats.

If the single die interpretation is correct, then outside of stratagems it does make retributors not as good as people were hoping.

 Gareth_Evans wrote:

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle

Depending on the interpretation of MD, it would behove you to spread multimeltas out to many BSS squads for all the re-rolls (assuming they have a simulacrum). This emulates the retributor multi roll interpretation but without the retributor strats.

If the single die interpretation is correct, then outside of stratagems it does make retributors not as good as people were hoping.

You mean retributors right, if so maybe use 1 melta squad to make use of the strat.

 Gareth_Evans wrote:

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle

Depending on the interpretation of MD, it would behove you to spread multimeltas out to many BSS squads for all the re-rolls (assuming they have a simulacrum). This emulates the retributor multi roll interpretation but without the retributor strats.

If the single die interpretation is correct, then outside of stratagems it does make retributors not as good as people were hoping.

I can't imagine people were legit expecting to be all "hoho all my multimeltas wounded, now I shall replace ALL of the damage dice with these four 6s I managed to roll by pure chance!".

Like people are acting like every miracle dice will be a 5 or 6.

Edit: Not to mention those other dice you roll aren't excluded from rerolls. So assuming your in melta range you sub in one MD for the phase, use a simulacrum for a second (if I'm understanding the rules right) then you can reroll a third if you REALLY need to. So only one roll is forced to stay unmodified in some fashion.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Gareth_Evans wrote:

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle

Depending on the interpretation of MD, it would behove you to spread multimeltas out to many BSS squads for all the re-rolls (assuming they have a simulacrum). This emulates the retributor multi roll interpretation but without the retributor strats.

If the single die interpretation is correct, then outside of stratagems it does make retributors not as good as people were hoping.

I can't imagine people were legit expecting to be all "hoho all my multimeltas wounded, now I shall replace ALL of the damage dice with these four 6s I managed to roll by pure chance!".

Like people are acting like every miracle dice will be a 5 or 6.

They could, but it would take a miracle.

 deviantduck wrote:
Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle

Also note, that the vehicle has to be the first miracle you use per turn, so it has to shoot first, or else you can't because another unit has used your miracle

i mean maybe, rules as written you assign miracle dice before the dice roll, you could argue that you can assign them at the start of the phase and then do other stuff and come back to it

 Sim-Life wrote:
I can't imagine people were legit expecting to be all "hoho all my multimeltas wounded, now I shall replace ALL of the damage dice with these four 6s I managed to roll by pure chance!".

Like people are acting like every miracle dice will be a 5 or 6.

I was, but then I was planning to run Ebon Chalice.

But all this doesn't enormously change how I intended to use the dice anyway, it just lowers the chance of going nova with an Exorcist or a Dominion squad.

I still think the best way is opportunistically; if you can get a guaranteed kill/max damage on a tank, take it... but realistically that's all in the shooting phase. It's the only phase in which this is even slightly an issue, as none of our melee weapons are high variance damage, and movement, charge, psychic and morale are all limited dice anyway.

I think that raises the value of things like Deadly Descent and Spirit of the Martyr, though, as it lets us shoot in different phases and thus get more opportunities for melta-based miracles.

Retributors are fine. If you haven't used an Act of Faith before they shoot, you could use the Simulacrum Imperialis to boost two damage rolls from Meltas. Outside of meltas they don't really need the AoF. Same goes for the Dominions, who can even use the Intercessor Cherub to grow some extra dice.

 Gareth_Evans wrote:

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle

Depending on the interpretation of MD, it would behove you to spread multimeltas out to many BSS squads for all the re-rolls (assuming they have a simulacrum). This emulates the retributor multi roll interpretation but without the retributor strats.

If the single die interpretation is correct, then outside of stratagems it does make retributors not as good as people were hoping.

It's not a re-roll. It's a pre-roll. You use it before you make the roll. Calling it a re-roll, I think, makes people see it in a different light than it should be. You have to decide if you want to chance it or if you want to have the sure thing.
If anything about MD changes, I think this might be the most likely aspect if they want it to be stronger. Making it a sure-fire re-roll would make it much more powerful - but I'm pretty sure they don't really intend for Acts of Faith to be that strong...that's why it was a random occurrence in the beta and why it's structured like it is now. (In a world of New-Marines and fairly blatant model-selling rules creep It's kinda weird this is where they're holding back but that's a whole 'nother thing)

But still I think it's plenty valuable on many units. Like those melta-retributors. Depending on your target it can add a lot of reliability. You just need to use a decision tree and the MD values you have to see where the odds work best. Sometimes a sure-hit can be huge - wouldn't it be nice to sure hit a Crimson Hunter Exarch a couple times? Other times you want to amp the damage when you get past an obnoxious invuln save. If ya gotta kill something but it's T4 with a 2+ and you're at half range? Use it on the hit roll, that's your low probability!

Also, don't forget the cherub - sacrificing him you get up to 3 MD per unit in a particular phase.

rbstr wrote:


Also, don't forget the cherub - sacrificing him you get up to 3 MD per unit in a particular phase.

also dont forget, you can generate d3 CP when you lose a character, which we'll have a lot of
spend 1cp to generate d3 mdice whenever some criteria are met
any squad that takes a casualty gives you a 1/6 of gaining another, 1/3rdish if you took the reroll army trait
1cp for a relic that lets you reroll one per turn or 1cp for an extra warlord trait for a backline character to generate another per turn

you dont even have to spend very much to be flush with extra dice

 deviantduck wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Gareth_Evans wrote:

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle

Depending on the interpretation of MD, it would behove you to spread multimeltas out to many BSS squads for all the re-rolls (assuming they have a simulacrum). This emulates the retributor multi roll interpretation but without the retributor strats.

If the single die interpretation is correct, then outside of stratagems it does make retributors not as good as people were hoping.

I can't imagine people were legit expecting to be all "hoho all my multimeltas wounded, now I shall replace ALL of the damage dice with these four 6s I managed to roll by pure chance!".

Like people are acting like every miracle dice will be a 5 or 6.

They could, but it would take a miracle.

AYYYYY, I see what you did there ^Exalted for dad joke

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Gareth_Evans wrote:

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle

Depending on the interpretation of MD, it would behove you to spread multimeltas out to many BSS squads for all the re-rolls (assuming they have a simulacrum). This emulates the retributor multi roll interpretation but without the retributor strats.

If the single die interpretation is correct, then outside of stratagems it does make retributors not as good as people were hoping.

I can't imagine people were legit expecting to be all "hoho all my multimeltas wounded, now I shall replace ALL of the damage dice with these four 6s I managed to roll by pure chance!".

Like people are acting like every miracle dice will be a 5 or 6.

Edit: Not to mention those other dice you roll aren't excluded from rerolls. So assuming your in melta range you sub in one MD for the phase, use a simulacrum for a second (if I'm understanding the rules right) then you can reroll a third if you REALLY need to. So only one roll is forced to stay unmodified in some fashion.

Why wouldn't it be that? The system isn't great even if it CAN do that, it's straight up useless if you can't. Also if you go with the weaker interpretation, none of the design around the army makes sense.

Why GENERATE dice at all if you're THAT restricted? Why not just start with X number like Tzeentch Daemons (who, btw do not have ANY restriction on how many they can use per roll)? It's not like you could spam out all your dice on the first turn anyway?

Why are they random if you again, only get 1-2 impactful dice per turn? A 1, 2, or 3 are never going to make a difference in a game, simply because morale, single hit rolls, and singular 0 rend attacks mean nothing and aren't worth buying a simulacrum for, let alone using your only general use Act on. Them being limited to 1 dice per attack roll/save roll, combined with only once per phase, completely invalidates the low dice.

Why only once per phase instead of once per UNIT? If you only get one dice at a time anyway, who cares if you use all the good ones in the first shooting phase?

Why replace the dice BEFORE you roll instead of after if they're that restricted? It makes the value of each dice individually much lower and means that even a 6 on a damage roll isn't particularly impressive when you consider that there's a 17% chance it didn't add anything to the damage and a 50% chance it added 2 or less.

Why say you were going to make a stronger AoF system and then make one that is objectively weaker? This system in the weaker interpretation is BOTH LESS reliable and LESS impactful than the beta codex AoF system, where remember we could give the entire army plus one to hit on a 3+ rerolling for 3CP. The weaker interpretation of miracle dice is weaker than Sacred Rites for gak's sake.

Why is the stratagem to carry one hit dice (already the absolute weakest use of a miracle dice) over to one wound dice (still a terrible use of MD) 2CP. Would YOU pay 2 CP to have 1 single attack per round, that was going to wound on a 3+ or better anyway, auto-wound? NO, you'd never do that. And it's insulting to think that's all this stratagem does when for 2CP (or less, don't remember) an Ironhands player can give their ENTIRE ARMY wound rolls of 6 are +1 AP or give a Leviathan's 20 shots Exploding 6s on its wound roll.

Why say '1 or more dice' when all you actually meant was you could use 2 dice to modify charges?

Why put such a huge nerf on dominions and such a massive price premium on immolators and Exorcists if the absolute best the miracle dice system can do is use a 6 to add an AVERAGE of 2.5 damage to a damage roll PER TURN. Remember, you still get to roll the dice, even if you don't MD it, so your 6 doesn't add 6 to your damage roll, it adds whatever the difference between your actual roll on 6 is.

Why is Triumph 183 point when it's worse in melee, more fragile, more vulnerable, less mobile, and a worse buff unit than a daemon prince of Tzeentch with wings and warp time?

While both interpratations seem sound RAW, RAI the 'single dice' interpretation is nuts with how the rest of the book is designes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rbstr wrote:

 Gareth_Evans wrote:

This is another reason foot sisters are better. Every single unit can use an MD in every single phase (if you generate enough MD of course) for a measly 5pts per unit. But vehicles don't get Simulacra, and so you will only be able to MD one vehicle

Depending on the interpretation of MD, it would behove you to spread multimeltas out to many BSS squads for all the re-rolls (assuming they have a simulacrum). This emulates the retributor multi roll interpretation but without the retributor strats.

If the single die interpretation is correct, then outside of stratagems it does make retributors not as good as people were hoping.

Also, don't forget the cherub - sacrificing him you get up to 3 MD per unit in a particular phase.

No it doesn't at least not under the 'Single dice' interpretation.

Intercessor cherubs give you an extra dice you must use in that phase, it does NOT give you an act of faith.

So you could easily end up in a situation where you pop the intercessor cherub, get a six at the start of the turn. Shoot your exorcist use a 6 on the damage roll there. Shoot your retributors and whoops, only 2 hits so you MD a wound with a the simulacrum not thinking about it, just trying to guarantee at least one shot goes through, and now you can't use that 6 anymore.

This would mean that buying a Cherub without a simulacrum could see you in a situation where you pop the cherub at the start of the phase, like you have to, get a 3 and a 1, take the 3, shoot with the unit, land a wound with the multimelta, use a 6 in your dice pool for damage, lose the cherub dice because it was useless, waste 5 points.

Same situation WITH a simulacrum could still happen if you had 2 6s and didn't need the 3.

Which is another reason why I think the RAI is multiple dice per roll.

Going back to the GMG video I think RAI is that any unit with AoF can use a miracle die but a single unit can't preform AoF multiple times like on multiple damage rolls .

So if you wanted both your exorcist and retributors to use AoF on damage in the same phase they can but only once a phase and only on one die (unless its a combined roll like charges etc).

 Sim-Life wrote:
Going back to the GMG video I think RAI is that any unit with AoF can use a miracle die but a single unit can't preform AoF multiple times like on multiple damage rolls .

So if you wanted both your exorcist and retributors to use AoF on damage they can but only once a phase and only on one die (unless its a combined roll like charges etc).

Re-going over the wording, this seems plausible as well.

If it was this, it's still much weaker than the multi dice interpretation but it's not useless like the single dice interpretation, so I could live with it.

Rynner wrote:

IanVanCheese wrote:

Rynner wrote:
The MD thing has been submitted for FAQ. I know someone on the FAQ team and he asked me if I saw anything wonky. I told him the MD rules are not clear.

Can you pester him about the Dominions giving scout to transports thing too please.

I'm not sure his role works like that, his job is make sure the rules make sense, not that they are good.

That's not what FAQ means, though. FAQ is short for "frequently asked questions." If the question gets asked enough, in theory they should be answering it. Ask anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Going back to the GMG video I think RAI is that any unit with AoF can use a miracle die but a single unit can't preform AoF multiple times like on multiple damage rolls .

So if you wanted both your exorcist and retributors to use AoF on damage they can but only once a phase and only on one die (unless its a combined roll like charges etc).

Re-going over the wording, this seems plausible as well.

If it was this, it's still much weaker than the multi dice interpretation but it's not useless like the single dice interpretation, so I could live with it.

Dunno if this helps or hurts the debate in either direction but...

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/sororitas-actsoffaith-2019.jpg

Sterling191 wrote:
None if you've already rolled them, one if you declare beforehand. Attacks are resolved one at a time.

Page 179, main rulebook, quick rolling. If all of the attacks have the same BS, same strength, same armour penetration and damage, and are directed at the same unit, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, and then all of the wound rolls. Only when you get to wound allocation are the attacks resolved one at a time.

The act of faith rule states that when you are about to make a roll for a unit you can use one or more dice from your dice pool. So here we have a unit about to roll 5 dice at the same time as a single quick rolled attack.

That's not to say that the weaker interpretation is wrong, just that some clarity would be worth putting into an FAQ, that's the whole point of FAQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:
Going back to the GMG video I think RAI is that any unit with AoF can use a miracle die but a single unit can't preform AoF multiple times like on multiple damage roll

"If your army contains at least one unit with this ability, you can perform one Act of Faith in each phase"

Once per phase per army. So the interpretation that you can only use one single dice per phase for all of the vehicles/repentia/seraphim/characters combined in your list is likely correct as currently written, and it would have to be the very first miracle dice that you use in the phase.

Taikishi wrote:

Dunno if this helps or hurts the debate in either direction but...

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/sororitas-actsoffaith-2019.jpg

Well that just confuses me more. I'm with "replace multiple single dice" people now.

I don't get how it is confusing.

A roll could be (for example):
A charge roll (2 dice)
A buffed charge roll, where you roll an extra d6 and pick the 2 highest (3 dice)
A hit roll (1 dice)
A damage roll where you use 2 and pick the highest (2 dice)
etc.

In the case where a roll calls for multiple dice, you can use as many miracle dice as you want, up to the maximum. For example, a charge roll could use 3d6 and pick the two highest (Example 2). You could use one miracle dice and roll 2, picking the 2 highest of the 3, you could use 2 miracle dice and roll 1, picking the 2 highest of the 3, or you could use 3 Miracle Dice and pick the 2 highest without rolling anyways (for some reason).

Most rolls to-hit, to-wound, etc. are only single dice rolls - but if you had, say, a weapon that wounded on a 5+ on 2d6 (for some reason) then the to-wound roll would be 2 dice, and you could use one or two miracle dice... etc.

The overriding rules is that if there's a difference in outcomes between fast rolling and doing attacks one-at-a-time you should treat it as one-at-a-time.
Each attack makes its own separate roll. And each wound/damage roll is certainly separate given how wounds are allocated per-model and the variety of things that can intercept wounds or FNP them in varous ways.
Using a single AoF on multiple attack rolls is fundamentally incompatible with slow-rolling.

The whole point of the wording is that some rolls contain multiple dice and you can replace any of them. That is stuff like, melta-rule damage and charges.

rbstr wrote:
The overriding rules is that if there's a difference in outcomes between fast rolling and doing attacks one-at-a-time you should treat it as one-at-a-time.
Each attack makes its own separate roll. And each wound/damage roll is certainly separate given how wounds are allocated per-model and the variety of things that can intercept wounds or FNP them in varous ways.
Using a single AoF on multiple attack rolls is fundamentally incompatible with slow-rolling.

The whole point of the wording is that some rolls contain multiple dice and you can replace any of them. That is stuff like, melta-rule damage and charges.

My problem is i think the only thing we have that is multiple dice are melta which you only need to use 1 anyways and charge rolls, why word it in such a way if you can only use multiple dice on charge rolls. you can cause much less confusion but saying you may replace one dice normally or both on charge rolls.

rbstr wrote:
The overriding rules is that if there's a difference in outcomes between fast rolling and doing attacks one-at-a-time you should treat it as one-at-a-time

Was that in one of the FAQs?

Just seems like something GW should clarify. By the rulebook using miracle dice does not break the listed restrictions of fast rolling.

So, I just noticed that one of the abilities on the Triumph of St. Kathrine allows units within 6" to use an AoF even if you're already used one. So technically, we do have a way to use more than one on a vehicle, also you can bump the dice by 1.

Mavnas wrote:
So, I just noticed that one of the abilities on the Triumph of St. Kathrine allows units within 6" to use an AoF even if you're already used one. So technically, we do have a way to use more than one on a vehicle, also you can bump the dice by 1.

So you could affect 2 1d6 rolls that way?

Yeah, it's got the same wording as the Simulacrum Imperialis but with a 6" aura:

"Once per phase you can perform one Act of Faith on a friendly unit within 6" with the Act of Faith ability, even if you have already used one or more Acts of Faith in that phase"

If a unit has a Simulacrum Imperialis, you could use your 1/phase Act of Faith on one damage roll for the unit and then your Simulacrum Imperialis one to do another. So it is still somewhat possible to get multiple MD on damage rolls per unit.

Tied up in a fragile 180pts unit though. I was planning on using ToSK a bunch anyway but I can see competitive players not thinking its worth it.

I suppose it depends on what the model is. If its a bunch of single models you can easily hide it might not be so bad but if its a massive diorama (which I suspect it will be) I can't imagine the tournament players will be too keen.

 Sim-Life wrote:
Tied up in a fragile 180pts unit though. I was planning on using ToSK a bunch anyway but I can see competitive players not thinking its worth it.

I suppose it depends on what the model is. If its a bunch of single models you can easily hide it might not be so bad but if its a massive diorama (which I suspect it will be) I can't imagine the tournament players will be too keen.

We already know for a fact it is a single model. The Datasheet says "The Triumph of St. Katherine is a single model." The only quest is how large will the base be? It likely will not be very tall, but it may be on a large oval base, which will still make it awkward to hide.

I mean, it's got a 3+/4++, 18 W, and subtracts 1 from rolls to hit it. If you're holding it back to give your exorcist(s) the ability to use more MD, it might be a pain for your opponent to bring enough firepower to kill it completely depending on how much long-range murder power he has. Or it might die instead of your exorcists, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Not being <ORDER> hurts though.

Mavnas wrote:
I mean, it's got a 3+/4++, 18 W, and subtracts 1 from rolls to hit it. If you're holding it back to give your exorcist(s) the ability to use more MD, it might be a pain for your opponent to bring enough firepower to kill it completely depending on how much long-range murder power he has. Or it might die instead of your exorcists, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Not being <ORDER> hurts though.

I kind of think this is going to be its role and trying to move it upfield to make use of the weight of attacks feels like a trap.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
I mean, it's got a 3+/4++, 18 W, and subtracts 1 from rolls to hit it. If you're holding it back to give your exorcist(s) the ability to use more MD, it might be a pain for your opponent to bring enough firepower to kill it completely depending on how much long-range murder power he has. Or it might die instead of your exorcists, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Not being <ORDER> hurts though.

I kind of think this is going to be its role and trying to move it upfield to make use of the weight of attacks feels like a trap.

It is a trap. It's a solid buff tool with a counter charge capability. Getting it into combat ASAP will just be too risky.

Lemondish wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
I mean, it's got a 3+/4++, 18 W, and subtracts 1 from rolls to hit it. If you're holding it back to give your exorcist(s) the ability to use more MD, it might be a pain for your opponent to bring enough firepower to kill it completely depending on how much long-range murder power he has. Or it might die instead of your exorcists, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Not being <ORDER> hurts though.

I kind of think this is going to be its role and trying to move it upfield to make use of the weight of attacks feels like a trap.

It is a trap. It's a solid buff tool with a counter charge capability. Getting it into combat ASAP will just be too risky.

If the battle sanctum allows you to bring your own LoS blocking terrain, I could see it having a significant niche as a backfield support unit for Infantry spam+Exorcists lists.

Lemondish wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
I mean, it's got a 3+/4++, 18 W, and subtracts 1 from rolls to hit it. If you're holding it back to give your exorcist(s) the ability to use more MD, it might be a pain for your opponent to bring enough firepower to kill it completely depending on how much long-range murder power he has. Or it might die instead of your exorcists, which isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Not being <ORDER> hurts though.

I kind of think this is going to be its role and trying to move it upfield to make use of the weight of attacks feels like a trap.

It is a trap. It's a solid buff tool with a counter charge capability. Getting it into combat ASAP will just be too risky.

The same can be said for any sisters assault unit
It all relies on how easy it is to hide
-1 to hit 2+/4+++ and 18w is enough to shrug off most things but not without dropping it down a tier (or two), the issue I see is if you are running an infantry list, all those anti knight guns have nothing else to shoot at, so its going to catch one at every opportunity, tank phalanx to hide it isn't as viable anymore without invulnerable buffing the vehicles =/