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Intercessors I can make a case for, and even then only really with bolt rifles. I built a squad with autos and regret it. Everything else is too squishy or too ineffective. Hellblasters and aggressors lose efficacy too fast because they don’t have ablative wounds or 2+ saves like their mini marine counterparts. Reivers are just plain trash. Inceptors can be imitated with squads of ASM with plasma so, again, no ablative wounds.

Hopefully a second wave of Primaris gives us stuff that isn’t trash. A transport at the very least, not a float raider that got soaked in plastic glue and dropped in the bitz box.

It's powerful is you can get a bunch of marine plasma to kill themselves on 2s. It's not wasted if they already declared a bunch of hellblasters.

Bremon wrote:
Intercessors I can make a case for, and even then only really with bolt rifles. I built a squad with autos and regret it.

The state of the auto bolt rifles is just bizarre. At leas GW made stalker free; they're still not good, but at leas you're not paying more for a worse weapon. Autos still cost a point though. The rapid fire bolt rifle is already better, yet cheaper. Then they give the obviously better stratagem to the rapid fire rifle. Not only that, the assault version's stratagem goes against it's only niche, i.e. staying outside the rapid fire and charge range of the enemy whilst still being able to doubletap. Still, I just built a squad with assault bolters; you can use each stratagem only once per turn, so I might want to use them both, even though one of them is vastly better. Besides, they're the best looking variant (which makes it even more infuriating that they're so bad.)

Reivers are just plain trash.

Another utterly bizarre thing. They could have easily given the Reivers an access to the veteran stratagem and the sergeant weapon upgrades (the same upgrade bits fit them just fine); it would have benefited them much more than the Intercessors.

"It's powerful is you can get a bunch of marine plasma to kill themselves on 2s. It's not wasted if they already declared a bunch of hellblasters."
Well, you can lead a Plasma to a -1-to-hit target to shoot at, but you can't make him overcharge when it's dumb to do so.

I though the Drukhari start can be popped after the fact. I mean, you can spend the whole game not overloading and lose, because you've only got about 2 turns to cripple the Drukhari before you are out of marines.

Bharring wrote:
"It's powerful is you can get a bunch of marine plasma to kill themselves on 2s. It's not wasted if they already declared a bunch of hellblasters."
Well, you can lead a Plasma to a -1-to-hit target to shoot at, but you can't make him overcharge when it's dumb to do so.

That's the key, actually.

I don't play DE, so I don't know the exact wording, but if it's "use this strategem when one of your units is targeted", then you wait until the attack is declared and pop it then, once they've committed to overcharging.

Or, more relevantly, it's existence prevents the unit from overcharging at all. You don't even have to use the stratagem, it presents a threat by it's existance that says "if you overcharge your guns, your gunners will die".

Depends on targets and army composition. Make sure you have two valid targets. Lead off with your AT that doesn't Gets Hot (Lascannons, Autocannons, or whatever). If they don't pop LQR, you don't suffer -1-to-hit on those weapons. If they do, fire your Plas weapons at other targets.

If you do have to declare a Plas Dev squad next, don't fire all the Plas Canons at the same target.

Tau Plasma is still S6 D1, no overcharge. CWE Plasma is S6 Dd3, no overcharge. Compared to those profiles, S7 D1 isn't terrible, if you have to use it.

For the cost it is. And again, you are under a hard timer before dissy cannons kill everything.

(I do agree that the --to-hit stuff is overboard. I also agree that Gets Hot should only be natural 1s. I just think Plas is still good even with those drawbacks.)

Bharring wrote:
Depends on targets and army composition. Make sure you have two valid targets. Lead off with your AT that doesn't Gets Hot (Lascannons, Autocannons, or whatever). If they don't pop LQR, you don't suffer -1-to-hit on those weapons. If they do, fire your Plas weapons at other targets.

If you do have to declare a Plas Dev squad next, don't fire all the Plas Canons at the same target.

Tau Plasma is still S6 D1, no overcharge. CWE Plasma is S6 Dd3, no overcharge. Compared to those profiles, S7 D1 isn't terrible, if you have to use it.

Tau Ion Guns are their "Plasma".

Plas is merely adequate. Melta, flamers, and grav actively suck. Gravis armor should have given an extra wound. Problem solved. Too many invulns for plas to be "too good".

I agree that Melta, Flamer, and Grav all suck. I agree that there are too many invulns. I'd go further and say AP is handed out too generously, and it cheapens the value of weapons that have good AP.

More wholeheartedly, though, I'd say the platforms people are looking at this through - the SM Tac, primarily - are bad.

Imagine of Storm Guardians could take Plasma Guns. Or of Guardian Defenders could take Plasma Cannons. Or Kabs or Fire Warrior squads. I imagine those units would *destroy*.

Tacs are on the way out. They are in the process of being soft squatted as we speak.

Scions with plasma are still obnoxious, and now we have 5 pt IG vets.

At the end of the day, a marine with plasma is still 24 pts, and it's just a mathematical blurp that primaris are super weak to 2 damage weapons. Plasma is far from the primary culprit. I've lost more primaris to lootas in the last 2 months than plasma. People have quit using plasma b/c of Alaitoc and Drukhari. Needing 12" range to get second shot sucks unless you are a scion. Then you don't care.

To the OP's topic.

For me to want to go further with my Ultramarine Primaris, I need some ability to take some Characters to gain some options.

I really think the Primaris Charecters should get all the ability to field all the Primaris weaponry options.

Captain with a Flamstorm Guantlet? Sure.
Libriarian with a Plasma Incinerator? Sure.
LT with Incpetor armor and jump pack and dual Assault Bolters? GTG.

They may eventually fit in a Land Raider!

Martel732 wrote:
Tacs are on the way out. They are in the process of being soft squatted as we speak.

Scions with plasma are still obnoxious, and now we have 5 pt IG vets.

At the end of the day, a marine with plasma is still 24 pts, and it's just a mathematical blurp that primaris are super weak to 2 damage weapons. Plasma is far from the primary culprit. I've lost more primaris to lootas in the last 2 months than plasma. People have quit using plasma b/c of Alaitoc and Drukhari. Needing 12" range to get second shot sucks unless you are a scion. Then you don't care.

It's worth remembering that while Vets went down, every gun they can take went up on them. IG Vets pay 14 for a Plasma Gun now iirc.

I agree about the Tacs, but I don't think that it's just 16 ppm Intercessors imposing on their niche. I think it's the combination of 14 ppm Company Veterans with 2 point Storm Shields (welcome back 4th edition power armor) and 13 ppm Sniper Rifle scouts that are really going to be what puts regular Tacs out to pasture.

 Crimson wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Intercessors I can make a case for, and even then only really with bolt rifles. I built a squad with autos and regret it.

The state of the auto bolt rifles is just bizarre. At leas GW made stalker free; they're still not good, but at leas you're not paying more for a worse weapon. Autos still cost a point though. The rapid fire bolt rifle is already better, yet cheaper. Then they give the obviously better stratagem to the rapid fire rifle. Not only that, the assault version's stratagem goes against it's only niche, i.e. staying outside the rapid fire and charge range of the enemy whilst still being able to doubletap. Still, I just built a squad with assault bolters; you can use each stratagem only once per turn, so I might want to use them both, even though one of them is vastly better. Besides, they're the best looking variant (which makes it even more infuriating that they're so bad.)

Reivers are just plain trash.

Another utterly bizarre thing. They could have easily given the Reivers an access to the veteran stratagem and the sergeant weapon upgrades (the same upgrade bits fit them just fine); it would have benefited them much more than the Intercessors.

Agreed, paying a point for a worse gun is just stupid. At least Sanguinary Guard are forced into a gun worse than a stormbolter; why should anyone take auto bolt rifles? They look cool but are gak. The bolt rifle strat just ensured that eBay stays busy selling Dark Imperium minis.

I hate to say it (because I play them) but I think the Autobolter might be paying a Raven Guard tax. Being able to double-tap at full range and fire while Advancing isn't worth giving up the AP1 and an extra point, unless you also really want to stay outside 12" to keep your -1 to be hit. Then it starts looking worthwhile.

Then here’s hoping Spring FAQ smashes RG’s tactic with a sledgehammer so the rest of us don’t have to subsidize their glory.

As the guy playing them I'm hoping all the other chapter traits get better instead. And for the record, the Autobolter still doesn't really look like a good purchase even with the RG trait.

The Newman wrote:
As the guy playing them I'm hoping all the other chapter traits get better instead. And for the record, the Autobolter still doesn't really look like a good purchase even with the RG trait.

Lol, fair enough. Here’s hoping they fix what I love instead of just breaking what you love to let you wallow with us in misery. And either way make autos 0 points. As it is Stalkers still need something to make them usable compared to sniper scouts beyond a stratagem, and auto could stand to be bumped to 3 shots to make up for the lack of AP.

The Newman wrote:
I hate to say it (because I play them) but I think the Autobolter might be paying a Raven Guard tax. Being able to double-tap at full range and fire while Advancing isn't worth giving up the AP1 and an extra point, unless you also really want to stay outside 12" to keep your -1 to be hit. Then it starts looking worthwhile.

They can still be at 15" with a regular Bolt Rifle, shooting the same number of shots with the AP -1. Or they could drop the Rapid Fire Stratagem and shoot double the shots. The Auto Bolt Rifle is pretty pointless.

The Newman wrote:
I hate to say it (because I play them) but I think the Autobolter might be paying a Raven Guard tax. Being able to double-tap at full range and fire while Advancing isn't worth giving up the AP1 and an extra point, unless you also really want to stay outside 12" to keep your -1 to be hit. Then it starts looking worthwhile.

It also doesn't suck with Deathwatch, but ya know, ammo.

The problem I have with auto bolt rifles in DW is why bother taking them on intercessors when you could just take SS/SB vets? For two more points you double your offensive output at 12 inches (easy to get with deepstrike) and trade 1 wound for a 3++

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

The Newman wrote:
I hate to say it (because I play them) but I think the Autobolter might be paying a Raven Guard tax. Being able to double-tap at full range and fire while Advancing isn't worth giving up the AP1 and an extra point, unless you also really want to stay outside 12" to keep your -1 to be hit. Then it starts looking worthwhile.

They can still be at 15" with a regular Bolt Rifle, shooting the same number of shots with the AP -1. Or they could drop the Rapid Fire Stratagem and shoot double the shots. The Auto Bolt Rifle is pretty pointless.

If I'm at 15" it's trivial for you to walk to within 12" and negate my -1 to be hit. If I'm at 23.99", not so much.

Paying 18 points a model to spit out two piddily s4 shots up to 24 inches is not all that impressive. They just don't do damage compared to say DW primaris or veterans.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The problem I have with auto bolt rifles in DW is why bother taking them on intercessors when you could just take SS/SB vets? For two more points you double your offensive output at 12 inches (easy to get with deepstrike) and trade 1 wound for a 3++

For the same reason that Deathwatch armies arent going to be 1500 points of SS/SB vets walking up the board like it's the 18th century: you can only deliver three pods via deepstrike, mortal wounds are gonna shred them, and board control actually matters.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Paying 18 points a model to spit out two piddily s4 shots up to 24 inches is not all that impressive. They just don't do damage compared to say DW primaris or veterans.

You can advance and shoot it with ap -1 at 24" range though. It's a more agressive build that wants to try to get close...to charge weak chaff or something. Use those 2 attacks. Or stay at range from something scary (lets be honest if it's not fast it's not scary). It is absolutely useless for vanilla space marines. As are most space marines in comparison to DW. Who basically double to tripple their damage for +2 points.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The problem I have with auto bolt rifles in DW is why bother taking them on intercessors when you could just take SS/SB vets? For two more points you double your offensive output at 12 inches (easy to get with deepstrike) and trade 1 wound for a 3++

For the same reason that Deathwatch armies arent going to be 1500 points of SS/SB vets walking up the board like it's the 18th century: you can only deliver three pods via deepstrike, mortal wounds are gonna shred them, and board control actually matters.

If your objective with the assault bolters is board control then veterans do it better with the ability to deepstrike anywhere (or take transports if that is to your fancy) and lay out far more damage. Especially as far as allies go the vets greatly outclass the assault bolter boys. Assault bolter intercessors are only moving an additional 1d6 inches so lets not pretend that is amazing mobility. A guardsmen ordered to move move move runs literal laps around them as do bikers. You do have a very good point about mortal wounds though. That is THE hard counter to them.

Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Paying 18 points a model to spit out two piddily s4 shots up to 24 inches is not all that impressive. They just don't do damage compared to say DW primaris or veterans.

You can advance and shoot it with ap -1 at 24" range though. It's a more agressive build that wants to try to get close...to charge weak chaff or something. Use those 2 attacks. Or stay at range from something scary (lets be honest if it's not fast it's not scary). It is absolutely useless for vanilla space marines. As are most space marines in comparison to DW. Who basically double to tripple their damage for +2 points.

If you want to get close why not just deepstrike? Their melee output is identical to veterans with shields and their offensive output is worse than veterans with storm bolters (especially DW ones). If you are running vanilla intercessors with auto bolt rifles yes you do get the 1d6 extra advance to get close (something you really don't even want to do) and suffer a -1 to hit. 10 whole intercessors put out 20 s4 shots for 10 s4 hits. That's just not scary. DW auto bolt rifles have a much better time with SIA, but even then I'd be tempted to just take my SS/SB vets to sit back and do the same with a 3++ invuln.

For the THIRD time now: Deathwatch can only deliver three units via deep strike. Stop acting like you can just magically point at the board and have 100 stormbolter Vets just appear.