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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What's the deal with people referring to sniper Scouts as good all of a sudden? When did that happen?

Sniper rifle got cheaper.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What's the deal with people referring to sniper Scouts as good all of a sudden? When did that happen?

About the same time it managed to take top tables due to mortal wound fishing.

A guy from frontline gaming didn't do terribly with a MW gimick marine list and now people think all the problems of marines are solved. Gulliman + sniper scouts, flack/hellfire dev squads, ancient, apothecary was putting out enough MW to down a knight in a turn or two (I have no idea how the math works out).

It won't work against greentide orc lists or anything hordy so it's not viable but you can't convince the "marines are fine" crowd of it.

A write up of the Vanilla marine list and play by the player.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/09/reecius-nova-tournament-report-vanilla-space-marines-are-viable.html

All hail our lord and saviour Roboute. The magical fix that makes “all” marines viable.

bananathug wrote:
A guy from frontline gaming didn't do terribly with a MW gimick marine list and now people think all the problems of marines are solved. Gulliman + sniper scouts, flack/hellfire dev squads, ancient, apothecary was putting out enough MW to down a knight in a turn or two (I have no idea how the math works out).

It won't work against greentide orc lists or anything hordy so it's not viable but you can't convince the "marines are fine" crowd of it.

Well, since then the list saw play by NN who ran it to 4th with a few changes.

And nobody said it fixed marines lol, that's quite the strawman. It did prove that units and wargear long thought worthless turned out to be valuable - it just required someone smarter and much more skilled than the average dakkanaut to show it.

Bremon wrote:
All hail our lord and saviour Roboute. The magical fix that makes “all” marines viable.

Landing a MW w/ Bobby : 15 * .888 * .306 = 4.1
MW w/ Chapter Master & Lieutenant Dan : 15 * .888 * .195 = 2.6

That's 266 points freed up, which you can use to make up the difference pretty easily.

People need to stop acting like there aren't other ways to get good rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:
It did prove that units and wargear long thought worthless turned out to be valuable - it just required someone smarter and much more skilled than the average dakkanaut to show it.

A lot of units suffer from the mathhammer menality and never make it to the table, because of that.

That 266 points going to make up for the full wound rerolls on the rest of the units that Guilliman is buffing Daedalus? No? Didn’t think so. Not to mention that he’s more deadly than a dreadnought in CC as a threat deterrent. Thanks for your opinion though.

Landing a MW w/ Bobby : 15 * .888 * .306 = 4.1
MW w/ Chapter Master & Lieutenant Dan : 15 * .888 * .195 = 2.6

But don't you lose the melee abilty, the resurect and end with 2 HQs that die much easier that way. Not saying Gulliman is a 300pts castellan, becuase he is not, but there is more to him then just re-rolls.

Personally, Primaris are what Space Marines should have been: tall, proud and with 2 wounds. Maybe it's time for the SM to be retired aux status such as HQs, dreadnoughts and veterans, at least it is more dignified than the Thunder warriors.

Lemondish wrote:

bananathug wrote:
A guy from frontline gaming didn't do terribly with a MW gimick marine list and now people think all the problems of marines are solved. Gulliman + sniper scouts, flack/hellfire dev squads, ancient, apothecary was putting out enough MW to down a knight in a turn or two (I have no idea how the math works out).

It won't work against greentide orc lists or anything hordy so it's not viable but you can't convince the "marines are fine" crowd of it.

Well, since then the list saw play by NN who ran it to 4th with a few changes.

And nobody said it fixed marines lol, that's quite the strawman. It did prove that units and wargear long thought worthless turned out to be valuable - it just required someone smarter and much more skilled than the average dakkanaut to show it.

No, it showed all wargear looks viable when you're sitting next to Roboute. That takes no skill to actually see.

Bremon wrote:
That 266 points going to make up for the full wound rerolls on the rest of the units that Guilliman is buffing Daedalus? No? Didn’t think so. Not to mention that he’s more deadly than a dreadnought in CC as a threat deterrent. Thanks for your opinion though.

*snort*

I could buy two dreadnoughts with that gap, but ok.

You think everything is in bubble range of RG at all times? Maybe the example list is and really low model count armies can do that, too. That's why you don't see him often - especially in ITC - because the army can't be where it needs to be for objectives. But that isn't the point, is it?

Also, those full reroll wounds get you an extra 14% on something that wounds on a 3 and 28% if you're wounding on a 4 over reroll 1s.

That game where NN came in 4th he only did so because his opponent misplayed his knights gauntlets ability (didn't do the auto mortal wounds on it, allowing Gman to fight back that round, killing the knight)...

The list is a bad gimick that doesn't work against most lists and is not viable any more due to the rise of orcs.

It also doesn't work at all without Gman because you are fishing for 6s with mortal wound snipers. If you are only re-rolling ones you basically halve your chances of getting wounds. Buffing 4 units of snipers you'd need to add 4 units of snipers costing at least the 266 points you'd save and then you run into issues of fitting them and the rest of your list into his 6" bubble, out of LOS and you're wasting 3 CP which you need to spam your flakk/hellfire strats, re-rolls for shooting on death and apothecary raises.

Again, gimick army that doesn't work any more. Same thing for necrons spamming vaults. Just because one crazy build is competitively viable (it hasn't won anything, didn't win a game in the winners bracket by the guy who made it up at a tournament it was designed for and came in 4th in another tournament because of a misplay) by guys who spend more time playing 40k than most of us do on our jobs, doesn't say anything about the viability of a codex. It just means those guys are really good at 40k and could probably replicate the same level of success with a lot of armies.

Bet NN isn't bringing it to LVO. Hell it won't finish in the top 50 at LVO because it's not good and there are so many other lists with better, more powerful tools available in other codexes.

Is the argument that it is a powerful list? Other lists spam more MW cheaper with more resiliency. Is the argument that because some really good players did okay with it that marines are fine? Having one okay build makes the marine dex okay? That we should stop saying our codex is underpowered because there is one build that given all things going perfectly could get into the winners bracket?

I'm not sure what the point is.

I'm contesting the notion that Bobby fixes everything (and is the only fix) when other tools are available.

I'm not making a claim of the viability of gimmick lists or the health of marine books.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Bremon wrote:
That 266 points going to make up for the full wound rerolls on the rest of the units that Guilliman is buffing Daedalus? No? Didn’t think so. Not to mention that he’s more deadly than a dreadnought in CC as a threat deterrent. Thanks for your opinion though.

*snort*

I could buy two dreadnoughts with that gap, but ok.

You think everything is in bubble range of RG at all times? Maybe the example list is and really low model count armies can do that, too. That's why you don't see him often - especially in ITC - because the army can't be where it needs to be for objectives. But that isn't the point, is it?

Also, those full reroll wounds get you an extra 14% on something that wounds on a 3 and 28% if you're wounding on a 4 over reroll 1s.

*snort*

Are those dreadnoughts as survivable as Roboute? They can be targeted and blown up turn one, but ok.

I’m not someone who uses Roboute. I don’t play UM. I have a fundamental problem with him existing, because he breaks the internal balance of the codex, and by extension, each snowflake codex.

bananathug wrote:
A guy from frontline gaming didn't do terribly with a MW gimick marine list and now people think all the problems of marines are solved. Gulliman + sniper scouts, flack/hellfire dev squads, ancient, apothecary was putting out enough MW to down a knight in a turn or two (I have no idea how the math works out).

It won't work against greentide orc lists or anything hordy so it's not viable but you can't convince the "marines are fine" crowd of it.

How?

There's... okay, you get 8 MW on average from flak and hellfire per dev squad you use a cherub for.

How many friggen scouts did he have to take to do the remaining 16 MWs?