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 lare2 wrote:
Quick question and my apologies if it's really dumb. I've looked in the Codex and faq but I'm clearly missing it if it's there.

Can cultists use veterans of the long war?

Thanks in advance.

Yes they've just lost their legion traits.

This is what drives me up the wall with that. They kept Cultists at 5 ppm making them overcosted without their traits, yet they can /still/ use the most powerful stragem in the book even though it literally says 'veterans of the long war'. So are they, or are they not part of the ancient evil?

I feel like the decision to take away legion traits from cultists was 100% gamey, and the fluff behind it was as thin as paper.

Rant aside, do people think we'll get similar points shifts from the SM book? Apparently Tacs are going down to 12. Whats the odds that our identical unit will get a change too?

 vaklor4 wrote:
This is what drives me up the wall with that. They kept Cultists at 5 ppm making them overcosted without their traits, yet they can /still/ use the most powerful stragem in the book even though it literally says 'veterans of the long war'. So are they, or are they not part of the ancient evil?

I feel like the decision to take away legion traits from cultists was 100% gamey, and the fluff behind it was as thin as paper.

Rant aside, do people think we'll get similar points shifts from the SM book? Apparently Tacs are going down to 12. Whats the odds that our identical unit will get a change too?

Why should they, THEY just fixed dex 2.0 and with it all CSM are done and workmas intended.
The price is also correct due to Spike tax.

/S

i'd say probably with the FAQ/ CA 2019?
MAybee ? If we get lucky? If they maybee also update our traits i am happy.

Yeah, I could see CA 2019 being when they shift CSM down with SM prices. Not like there is even that many months left until the end of the year, meaning CA 2019 /should/ be coming at least in 2-3 months.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Yeah, I could see CA 2019 being when they shift CSM down with SM prices. Not like there is even that many months left until the end of the year, meaning CA 2019 /should/ be coming at least in 2-3 months.

Doesn't change the situation at all imo. 5 months ago we got dex 2.0 that fixed nothing.

SM got dex 2.0 and get a propper rework.

that is basically shwoing that GW does not care about even attempting to give everyone equal long pikes anymore.

 small_gods wrote:

 lare2 wrote:
Quick question and my apologies if it's really dumb. I've looked in the Codex and faq but I'm clearly missing it if it's there.

Can cultists use veterans of the long war?

Thanks in advance.

Yes they've just lost their legion traits.

Awesome - thanks. That's good to know... and utterly ridiculous. Who am I to argue with it though!

well at least now heretic astartes will get +1 attack in charge/being charged, not bad at all

 blackmage wrote:
well at least now heretic astartes will get +1 attack in charge/being charged, not bad at all

I've wondered on the limitations on this. As in, do we know if it's all "Heretic Astartes" (which is what people I know think it is), or is it going to end up getting a limit on something like <INFANTRY>?

I ask because, while it's good for Terminators (making me doubly want to figure out the best way to field a unit of termies in my list), and maybe even good for raptors and talons which is good news....

...personally I got curious about the extra S12 ap-3 D3 attack my maulerfiend would be getting. Or a helbrute. Or contemptors even. I'm sure there's other things too that wouldn't say no to an extra chance to mangle something.

For instance, this rule would mean even a helbrute with ranged weapons, ends up with the same attacks on the charge as a helbrute with 2x CCWs. Not game breaking or anything, but it's nice.

Edit: Just to say, I don't actually think Chaos will end up with all those buffs. That would actually be balancing. I suspect we'll only be allowed it on a few units. At best, it'll be everything with DTTFE, which includes princes, but I suspect they'll do something skanky like limit it to troops only or something.

How can i make a JP chaos character with chiropteran wings (CW) as resilient as possible ? The new FAQ now allows the CW to be used with warptime. Your JP character can move, advance and charge up to 48" in one turn, jumping over many, many units. Problem is he is not very tough. A tzeentch lord can get weaver of fates, which gives him a 3+ inv. A nurgle lord can get miasma of pestilence for -1 to hit. A slaanesh lord can get delightful agonies for a 5+ FNP. A BL lord can get all four marks with a stratagem for one turn, but you need a nurgle, tzeentch and slaanesh psyker to cast all those spells on him. And he cant charge after advancing.

 p5freak wrote:
How can i make a JP chaos character with chiropteran wings (CW) as resilient as possible ? The new FAQ now allows the CW to be used with warptime. Your JP character can move, advance and charge up to 48" in one turn, jumping over many, many units. Problem is he is not very tough. A tzeentch lord can get weaver of fates, which gives him a 3+ inv. A nurgle lord can get miasma of pestilence for -1 to hit. A slaanesh lord can get delightful agonies for a 5+ FNP. A BL lord can get all four marks with a stratagem for one turn, but you need a nurgle, tzeentch and slaanesh psyker to cast all those spells on him. And he cant charge after advancing.

My first idea would've been to give him fleahmetal armor from IW.

However, i'd still go for RC.
Then there is the trait for +1 w and something else in the main CSM book.
Alternativly you go al, use forward on him. Mark him Slaanesh for a safety net. (also Hydra blade) that wouldn't be overly expensive and still somewhat durable.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
How can i make a JP chaos character with chiropteran wings (CW) as resilient as possible ? The new FAQ now allows the CW to be used with warptime. Your JP character can move, advance and charge up to 48" in one turn, jumping over many, many units. Problem is he is not very tough. A tzeentch lord can get weaver of fates, which gives him a 3+ inv. A nurgle lord can get miasma of pestilence for -1 to hit. A slaanesh lord can get delightful agonies for a 5+ FNP. A BL lord can get all four marks with a stratagem for one turn, but you need a nurgle, tzeentch and slaanesh psyker to cast all those spells on him. And he cant charge after advancing.

My first idea would've been to give him fleahmetal armor from IW.

However, i'd still go for RC.
Then there is the trait for +1 w and something else in the main CSM book.
Alternativly you go al, use forward on him. Mark him Slaanesh for a safety net. (also Hydra blade) that wouldn't be overly expensive and still somewhat durable.

Cant give him the flashmetal exoskeleton because its a relic, CW is a relic as well. Unholy fortitude is W+1, and 6+ FNP, which is better than nothing. AL isnt going to help much, because he is probably going to be behind enemy lines, within 12" of enemy models. Also warptime is only 3" range.

 p5freak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
How can i make a JP chaos character with chiropteran wings (CW) as resilient as possible ? The new FAQ now allows the CW to be used with warptime. Your JP character can move, advance and charge up to 48" in one turn, jumping over many, many units. Problem is he is not very tough. A tzeentch lord can get weaver of fates, which gives him a 3+ inv. A nurgle lord can get miasma of pestilence for -1 to hit. A slaanesh lord can get delightful agonies for a 5+ FNP. A BL lord can get all four marks with a stratagem for one turn, but you need a nurgle, tzeentch and slaanesh psyker to cast all those spells on him. And he cant charge after advancing.

My first idea would've been to give him fleahmetal armor from IW.

However, i'd still go for RC.
Then there is the trait for +1 w and something else in the main CSM book.
Alternativly you go al, use forward on him. Mark him Slaanesh for a safety net. (also Hydra blade) that wouldn't be overly expensive and still somewhat durable.

Cant give him the flashmetal exoskeleton because its a relic, CW is a relic as well. Unholy fortitude is W+1, and 6+ FNP, which is better than nothing. AL isnt going to help much, because he is probably going to be behind enemy lines, within 12" of enemy models. Also warptime is only 3" range.

Host raptorial, i guess then a bunch of warptalons might be the best insurance really.

CW has a 50% chance of doing D3 mortal wounds. Wasting your WT, your relic and putting your warlord at risk for such an underwhelming amount of damage seems ridiculous to me.

Yeah, if you can use Warptime to throw a RC hammer Lord over a conveniently aligned enemy army before pulverising something, all well and good, but don’t go

A HR lord’s job is to ensure the Warp Talons get to where they need to go, not blast off like a glory hog

I’ve currently got a CR HR Warlord in my army because of campaign restrictions, and even throwing a Daemon Shell into the mix the only real damage he does is with his thunder hammer. As soon as my DP’s ready to enter, he is a field commander whose job is to guide WTs and then Boromir

Hey guys... looking to get back into my heretic armies after my recent ITC tournament.

I played 5 games, and in four of those games, my opponent really took advantage of the ITC ruin rule whereby units on 1st floor behind wall don't have LOS. Great for units to rack up obj points and in 2 of the games for weapons/powers that don't require LOS.

What's your favorite CSM/Demon units you'd use to "root out" entrench units in ruins like that?

I saw some discussions revolving around a hammer lord - what is the setup? (warptime thrown in I'm assuming)

What about Oblits? (expensive)

I think ya'll brand me as a heretic... but, what about Red Corsair Mutilators? (DS, then assault or if not in range move+run+assault in next turn).

Demons: only thing I can think of is large blob of 'letters or pink horrors???

Anything else?

Anybody thinking seriously about vindicators again if the D6 rule change transfers over to CSM?
With T8 and ability to pop smoke its tempting to advance to the middle of the board turn one and if the opponent wants to put the sort of firepower that will put it down into a 125pt model then i won't argue.
But if they don't its on average the equivalent of 3 or 4 lascannons, that's worth 100pts on it's own so 125pts seems a steal?
I tend to operate a moving castle around abaddon so i like the idea of moving up the board behind one or even two and by turn two he'll be in the vicinity of a stationary vindicator to give his rerolls.

 whembly wrote:
Hey guys... looking to get back into my heretic armies after my recent ITC tournament.

I played 5 games, and in four of those games, my opponent really took advantage of the ITC ruin rule whereby units on 1st floor behind wall don't have LOS. Great for units to rack up obj points and in 2 of the games for weapons/powers that don't require LOS.

What's your favorite CSM/Demon units you'd use to "root out" entrench units in ruins like that?

I saw some discussions revolving around a hammer lord - what is the setup? (warptime thrown in I'm assuming)

What about Oblits? (expensive)

I think ya'll brand me as a heretic... but, what about Red Corsair Mutilators? (DS, then assault or if not in range move+run+assault in next turn).

Demons: only thing I can think of is large blob of 'letters or pink horrors???

Anything else?

The best units for this job are hellforged scorpius and deredeos with greater havoc ml. If your not into FW then your mostly stuck with assaulting them out.. at least until you've cleared screens for DS landing zones but by then they've done their job. Single oblits can fit into tighter spaces and I've used them but they can be really swingy and then guaranteed dead.

On a friendlier note I like msu zerks. Theres just something about 4x5 zerks in rhinos thats enjoyable and they always attract attention.

Alternately my go to is dmc tzaangors.

saint_red wrote:
CW has a 50% chance of doing D3 mortal wounds. Wasting your WT, your relic and putting your warlord at risk for such an underwhelming amount of damage seems ridiculous to me.

Its 50% chance in the psychic phase, 50% in the movement phase, and 50% in the charge phase. You can move over more than one unit with a double 15,5" move, and a 7" charge. If you survive the fight phase you can fallback over multiple units with a 12" move.

 p5freak wrote:

saint_red wrote:
CW has a 50% chance of doing D3 mortal wounds. Wasting your WT, your relic and putting your warlord at risk for such an underwhelming amount of damage seems ridiculous to me.

Its 50% chance in the psychic phase, 50% in the movement phase, and 50% in the charge phase. You can move over more than one unit with a double 15,5" move, and a 7" charge. If you survive the fight phase you can fallback over multiple units with a 12" move.

It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.

Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.

Just take a sorcerer and smite somebody lol. We have so many better ways of dealing mortal wounds.

If you are playing a Host Raptorial with a Chaos Lord and you don't have any other good relics to choose then take CW and enjoy a few bonus MWs. Personally I think there are much better generic relics to take anyway (like Intoxicating Elixir or the Talisman) not to mention some strong legion specific options.

Abaddon303 wrote:
Anybody thinking seriously about vindicators again if the D6 rule change transfers over to CSM?
With T8 and ability to pop smoke its tempting to advance to the middle of the board turn one and if the opponent wants to put the sort of firepower that will put it down into a 125pt model then i won't argue.
But if they don't its on average the equivalent of 3 or 4 lascannons, that's worth 100pts on it's own so 125pts seems a steal?
I tend to operate a moving castle around abaddon so i like the idea of moving up the board behind one or even two and by turn two he'll be in the vicinity of a stationary vindicator to give his rerolls.

I always wanted to try a linebreaker bombardment, but it never seemed worth finishing my Vindicator and buying & building another two. Honestly, when I saw the gun was D3, I never even noticed it was T8. With a Noctolith Crown able to make them harder to hurt than Knights, finishing that mothballed project and giving it a field-test is certainly a thought.

Niiru wrote:

It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.

Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.

Read the recent FAQ, it works.

Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’).

dominuschao wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Hey guys... looking to get back into my heretic armies after my recent ITC tournament.

I played 5 games, and in four of those games, my opponent really took advantage of the ITC ruin rule whereby units on 1st floor behind wall don't have LOS. Great for units to rack up obj points and in 2 of the games for weapons/powers that don't require LOS.

What's your favorite CSM/Demon units you'd use to "root out" entrench units in ruins like that?

I saw some discussions revolving around a hammer lord - what is the setup? (warptime thrown in I'm assuming)

What about Oblits? (expensive)

I think ya'll brand me as a heretic... but, what about Red Corsair Mutilators? (DS, then assault or if not in range move+run+assault in next turn).

Demons: only thing I can think of is large blob of 'letters or pink horrors???

Anything else?

The best units for this job are hellforged scorpius and deredeos with greater havoc ml. If your not into FW then your mostly stuck with assaulting them out.. at least until you've cleared screens for DS landing zones but by then they've done their job. Single oblits can fit into tighter spaces and I've used them but they can be really swingy and then guaranteed dead.

On a friendlier note I like msu zerks. Theres just something about 4x5 zerks in rhinos thats enjoyable and they always attract attention.

Alternately my go to is dmc tzaangors.

IF the new Shock attack rule indeed works, and you are willing to run RC and Khorne, then i'd imagine that a unit of mulitators might not be half bad.
Atm they are 35 pts right?

WRT Hammer Lord, I’ve been mucking around with Raptorial Host. It’s OK, but needs horde clearance support; chaincannons, Noise Marines, Heavy Bolter Rapiers, Pink Horrors, Bloodletters - the usual suspects.

If you’re going to use a hammer Lord and Khorne Muties, they’d be ok elements in a themed Khorne army with the aforementioned Bletters, and also Oblits and Warp Talons, and a Herald with Crimson Crown turning VotLW into a mini-EC and giving rerolls on charges.

I see Loyalists have regained Drop Pod Assault - DPs & their contents ignore Tactical Reserves restrictions. If that gets rolled out to Dreadclaws and Kharybdis, we might be looking at some new builds. Either way, we’ll need to adapt to the new threat - I expect Vanguard Veterans will be trolling us with plasma or storm bolters, for a start. Grey Hunters can efficiently get Obsec into our DZ on turn one, and Black Templars can do the same with, well, owt.

 p5freak wrote:

Niiru wrote:

It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.

Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.

Read the recent FAQ, it works.

Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’).

Interesting, then yeh Warptime works with it. Also I realise falling back does happen in the movement phase, so that works too.

Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What is the best current screen-clearing first turn unit for chaos at the moment? Chaincannon havocs? combi-chosen?

Niiru wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Niiru wrote:

It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.

Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.

Read the recent FAQ, it works.

Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’).

Interesting, then yeh Warptime works with it. Also I realise falling back does happen in the movement phase, so that works too.

Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What is the best current screen-clearing first turn unit for chaos at the moment? Chaincannon havocs? combi-chosen?

Tesla armigers are probably worth honorable mention here

orkswubwub wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Niiru wrote:

It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.

Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.

Read the recent FAQ, it works.

Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’).

Interesting, then yeh Warptime works with it. Also I realise falling back does happen in the movement phase, so that works too.

Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What is the best current screen-clearing first turn unit for chaos at the moment? Chaincannon havocs? combi-chosen?

Tesla armigers are probably worth honorable mention here

Hadn't even seen those, were they in the old knights slate? Or was tesla added in the updated book? Will have to take a look

Yes, when the new SM codex drops, SM are going to be scary to face. I don't believe CSM is meant to outshoot them honestly. We are going to have to find other ways. Unfortunately, with the new devastator discipline, I think SM are now just so good at mowing down infantry and lightly armored stuff such that the only way I see is to go T7, T8 preferably so that all of those shots end up failing to wound.

So, mass daemon engines, or get help from the chaos knights. The only issue is that their drop pods are now dangerous. Can come down turn 1. So, bubble wrap may be important too. Yet, I don't see how we can easily guard against the new SM who have so many bolter shots at ap-1 or better. Our cultists and even regular CSM are going to drop like flies against the amount of bolter fire they can churn out. We may have to rely on daemon troops like plague bearers. Because daemons have a 5++ save and don't care how much AP their weapon has. They might still chug out too much bolter fire even for plague bearers to handle though, with all their new stuff.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Triple repulsors can be intimidating if you are not expecting it. First question is what is your legion?

Yeah, let's talk about how to fight triple Repulsors.

I don't think it's that easy for CSMs. Each one does about 40 shots around and all their guns are AP-. They can fire their main gun twice in most circumstances.

I play Black Legion and was facing Ultramarines. The rest of his army was HQs, Primaris, Devastators, a Flyer and Thunderfire Cannons.

He deployed the Repulsors last, creating a kill zone covering most of the middle of the table. He put all his bolter / stubber fire into the Cultists (who had no saves) and all the big guns into the Deredeo until the HQs were the closest units.

In terms of what I did wrong - needed longer range guns and better delivery / meatshields. A Rhino could have made a difference. It's just a deadly match up at mid-range, you have to do some damage to them before you get close.

Azuza001 wrote:
Oblitirators are a perfect solution to your repulsar problem. Deep strike, blow one away (or do as much dmg as possible), then slaanesh strat to shoot another one. They are probably going to die after that but 345 pts to kill 600 is a good trade.

I had 2 Obliterators and 2x20 Bloodletter squads ready to deep strike turn 2. There just wasn't much to support them when they got there.

Azuza001 wrote:
T1 your focus would have to be on chaff clearing, which 5 man marine squads with chaincannons can do well. 3 man biker teams, bare minimum, are also a cheap and effective way at clearing chaff at 69 pts for 14 boltgun shots (you are giving the champion a free bolter right?) at 24" range plus 14" movement, i find all my lists start with 3 squads of these guys.

Yeah. Was thinking MSU would have caused the Repulsors to waste shots. Thought about a Biker Lord instead of the Chainlord.

Niiru wrote:

Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.

Its gonna be a lot more than once or twice.

Niiru wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
What is the best current screen-clearing first turn unit for chaos at the moment? Chaincannon havocs? combi-chosen?

CC slaanesh havocs with a chaos lord, votlw, prescience, endless cacophony. 64 shots hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding T4 and lower on 2s. Also works against non screen units, i deleted two 10 model necron immortal units with this

Personally I am really struggling to see how this CW build is going to be effective but try it out and let us know how it goes.

Regarding CC havocs, how are you protecting them T1 and getting them into range? Aside from proxying them in a casual game I haven't had much experience with them. My impression is that they are too fragile and hard to make work on T1.